I have ordered two of the new Montana 1999 Profesional Hunter Modle. They predict that they will be manfactured and shiped next fall. Thw action will handle any round between ,375 H&H and .505 Gibs. The bolt face options are .534, .604, and .648. I plant to hunt Africa and Alaska. One or both will be open sights only. I would like some help with cartrige choice. I have allways wanted a .460 weatherby, but the .416 weatherby, .505 gibs, .500 jeffry. .495 A Square or 500 A Square are also interisting. Also how heavy would build them, I don't want a muzle break. Thanks

I'm of no expert but why not make it the .375 H&H and the 500 Jeffries? Both are good calibers, well proven with managable recoil (I've yet to shoot a 500 but a friend is building one so thet will change soon). I've heard to many negative things about the Weatherbys -excessive recoil being the foremost.

The whole point behind Weatherby calibers is wrong. There is no such thing as "hydrostatic shock" and all extra velocity does is give you a bit more point blank range. This is unnecessary in a DG caliber where the ranges will be (sometimes terrifyingly) close. Cewe's point is well taken. Make one in a general caliber and one in a stopper. Of course there is no general caliber to match the .375 H&H. There hasn't been one for nearly a hundred years and the chance of one showing up in the next hundred is miniscule. Now for a stopper I like the .450 Rigby. It knocks buffalo down. Make it weigh 10.25 lbs with a couple of mercury buffers, a well designed stock and a fat pad. If that is insufficiently manly for you, I'd go with the .505 Gibbs at 11 lbs. Though the .500 Schuler is a fine cartridge, it seems a bit silly to build a rifle in a caliber that is designed to fit into the M98 action on something so generous as the Montana PH. You've got the space for a Churchill cigar in that thing, use it.

quote:

Originally posted by Oldsarge:
The whole point behind Weatherby calibers is wrong. There is no such thing as "hydrostatic shock" and all extra velocity does is give you a bit more point blank range.

Uh-oh...Dr. B, prepare to have your thread hijacked...

I've always wondered about the statement above, and I certainly know it has been a subject of endless debate around many a deer camp campfire. While I haven't hunted africa yet, I have done my fair share of rifle hunting. And I have to agree with Oldsarge.

My take on it is this. Knockdown power (energy) has two variables: Bullet weight and bullet velocity. How much energy is needed to take down a Cape Buff? I'm not sure, but from the rifles everyone here seems to use, somewhere in the neighborhood of 4000-6000 ft lbs (correct me if I'm wrong). So, to get that energy you need either a light, fast bullet at incredible velocity, or a heavy bullet that consequently will be traveling slower. I would think that a light, fast bullet would be more apt to shatter on impact, or otherwise lose weight (even primo bullets).

I hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong. I have debated this with my dad for years (a man who still uses his 30-30 for deer hunting). LIke I said, I'm not an expert, and mostly do it just to piss him off , but I think my reasoning is sound.

Dr B

I'm a huge fan of the 375H&H and it is a great choice for any African or Alaskan hunt but it almost seems overkill to put it in that huge action. On the other hand I can see the logic in having 2 rifles exactly the same.

As for big boomer I think I would choose the 460 Weatherby because you can go into almost any good sized sporting goods store and buy a box of ammo. Try that with a 495 A Square. Also if you reload you can have a 500gr. bullet just idle at 2400fps with low pressures and still be ready for anything on the planet.

The other rounds you mentioned certainly will get the job done but the loaded ammo is not readily available and the components are very expensive.

The 416 Weatherby is an enormously powerful cartridge but in my mind it kind of falls in between the 375 and the others you mentioned. The 416 certainly will do it all but it is not a relatively mild recoil round like the 375 nor is it a moderate velocity bruiser like the others.

Have fun choosing!

Regards,

Mark

The MRC PH action is very long to accomodate the 416 Rigby, 505 Gibbs and the 460 Wby. Putting a shorter cartridge into it, like the .375 HH or 500 Jeffery or 495 A-square, is unnecessary. It will result in a rifle that is longer than it should be. Also, you will have to figure out what to do with the extra magazine length, as the cartridges will tend to slide forward in the magazine during recoil, which can result in misfeeds (i.e., put a .308 cartridge in a 30-06 magazine box, slide the .308 to the front of the box and see if it will still feed).

Therefore I would select one of the long cartridges for those actions:

416 rigby
450 rigby
450 dakota
470 mbogo

505 gibbs
600 overkill

378 wby
416 wby
460 wby
500 A-square
.550 Magnum (.460 wby necked up to .550")

Personally my choice would be the .505 Gibbs. And I would set it up to weigh 11 pounds.

THere is such thing as hydrostatic shock. However, it is not the be-all and end-all of killing power. I believe a more accurate way to put it would be that it is unwise to rely on high velocity and hydrostatic shock to drop an animal on the spot. High velocity and explosive terminal effects can have remarkably quick results on game. They can also cause a bullet to fail miserably when a lightly constructed bullet blows up before it gets the job done

I concur with 500grains, if choosing a full length magnum action like the MPH, choose a full length cartridge. I'd select a 416Rigby, 450Dakota or Rigby, 460Wby or 500A2 in a 10-11 lb rifle.

My vote goes to a 10# 416 Rigby and an 11# 505 Gibbs. Scope the Rigby with a low power scope in detachable mounts and leave the 505 with iron sights. Get a 375 in a Winchester or a CZ later and you will cover all the bases in Africa.

That some sort of shock effect occurs, I agree, but it's not "hydrostatic". Why not? Hydro=water. Static=Standing Still. In other words, just the sort of thihg one needs when engaged in the wonderful sport of making plastic milk bottles explode. I love it! However, animals aren't built like that. The heart-lung kill zone of the animal is mostly air so hydraulically driven shock waves don't apply. Flying bone splinters do. Sharp chunks of bullet do. Penetration, though, is IMO the biggie. Get the bullet expanded and out the other side just seems to be the best way to quickly and humanely kill a beast . . . aside from shattering the nervous system of course. That's the kind of shock I like.

quote:

The heart-lung kill zone of the animal is mostly air so hydraulically driven shock waves don't apply. Flying bone splinters do. Sharp chunks of bullet do.

Old and Wise Sarge

Old Sarge I agree the .375 H&H has little hydrostatic shock, but it does exist I have seen a .223 cal 40 gr bullet at 3800 fps drop 20-30 whitetaile like a lighting bolt. Much quicker kills than with .30 cal deer rifles. I kinow that whitetails arnt dangerous game and nobody is sugesting shoot a cape buffalo with a 220 swift OK but to think that Hydrostatic shock does not have a role is verey outdated thinking. Read this article before you reply

http://www.gunhuntermag.com/Features/050124Hot.htm

What about a .378 weatherby 270gr triple shock at 3200 fps VS 375 H&H 300gr at 2400 fps. which one will be more effective.

Also the reason that
Roy weatherby developed the 375 weatherby and then the 378 weatherby is that the 375 H&H is such a marginal gun for DG.

Again, I agree that some kind of shocking effect does, on occasion, occur with HV. However, the fact that the writer yo refer to called it "hydrostatic" doesn't make that fact. If you check a dictionary, hydrostatic refers to the pressure of standing water, something that isn't found in animals.

Roy Weatherby was neither ballistician nor engineer. He was a superb salesman. When he took his new wonder round, the .378 to Africa, the PH who guided him reported years later that Roy couldn't kill anything with it. Admittedly, that was due to the fact that the bullets of the time were simply too fragile for the velocity. Even today, that is still a problem with the round, not to mention the fact that its recoil and muzzle blast make it very hard for anyone to shoot with consistant accuracy. And consistant accuracy is what we must insist on when hunting, especially for DG.

I am but a moderately experienced budget bwana. Go rather to JJHack, Steve Robinson, Rich Elliot, and the other professionals on the board. Their appreciation for HV in Africa in minimal. Remember that the DG for a client is not the "stopper" of the professional. The client's job is to consistantly put bullets into the kill zone of animals. Only if something goes wrong in spite of the client's best effort does the stopping rifle come into play . . . and eventually it will. Last summer it happened to me. My PH quickly sorted things out with a .416 Remington. He feels no need for anything more.

Personally, I can comfortablly handle rifles up to the .458 Lott range. If the gun were heavier, I'd possibly go to the .505. However, notice that for all the considerable energy of my rounds of choice, their MV is around 22-2300 fps. This results in lower recoil velocity, something that I feel is more important that lower recoil energy. I can take the recoil of big boomers provided it doesn't come at me so quickly that it causes whiplash. BTW, don't forget the advantages of frontal area on DG.

Again, I have only three safaris under my belt with two buffalo. One dropped and died with a .450 Rigby. The other was skewered with a .404 at 2400 fps. The shot was absolutely perfect and the buff was dying as he charged, but charge he did. Send PM's to the professionals and ask their opinion instead of listening to the various enthusiasts of whatever stripe who, like me, use up the space on this board. Good hunting with whatever you chose, brother, that's where I'm going today. Back Thursday or Friday.

I just read A Square"s description of all of the above mentioned cartrages. In the .458 class the 460 wby excedes the 458 lott, 450 rigby. 450 Dacota So why are many people prejudice toward this cartige. the belt is not a problem on the lot. it can be loaded down a little should remedy any extraction problems and it still out shouts any othe .458. also the extra velocity allows you to extend the rang if you chose to.

Dr. B, there are a couple of things going on with regard to prejudice against the 460 Wby.

First, being a Wby, it is associated with the Mark V action which by itself stirs up a rather heated debate. Since you are using a MRC PH CRF action, there is no Mark V debate.

Second, the 460 has a venturi shoulder. That is just a marketing feature, and nothing to get hot and bothered about.

Third, many 460 wbys were made with relatively slow twist barrels. If a bullet is understabilized (twist too slow), then penetration will be shallow. You can solve this problem once and for all by ordering a barrel with a 1:10 twist (don't settle for anything less).

As for ballistics, the 450 Dakota, 450 Rigby and 460 Wby all have the same case capacity and can all reach the same max velocity. Being a Wby cartridge, the published data for the 460 is hotter, but a reloader can push all 3 to exactly the same velocity.

Here is a 460 Wby CRF for sale for ony $2975. If it did not have porting, I would buy it. Maybe I will buy it anyway.

DocB, are you looking for a crusher, and if so why not go to a 500NE or a 577NE..
Or are you looking for a big accurate rifle you can handle...A Lott with a 500gr at 2300 will give you 5800pounds of muzzle energy..
What are you looking for??
You get what you pay for..
Mike

I vote for the .460 Weatherby or the .450 Dakota. There are a lot of good .458 bullets to play with, and they have high sectional densities for penetration to the vitals.

And while velocity can be a bullet killer, it aids penetration with a solid. Plus it causes hydrostatic shock in creatures susceptible to it.

The Secret Service did some interesting studies before settling on the .357 Sig as the standard duty round. They found that the extra velocity helped it penetrate barriers/car windows/thick clothing better than the bigger, slower .40S&W and nearly as well as the 10mm. They also found it incapacitated bad guys and stopped the gun fight more often than the .40S&W, even with non-lethal hits. This is pretty important since people lethally shot with a handgun often last 20 minutes or more, during which time they can shoot back.

They came to the conclusion that the hydrostatic shock was the effect of the size of the temporary wound channel and its effect on disrupting the nervous system (vice the bullet-diameter permanent wound channel that actually determines whether the shot is lethal).

On the big guys (elephant/hippo/rhino/buffalo), could it be that the temporary wound channel "wave" is attenuated to zero very quickly by all the muscle and bone? Or is it that the animal's so big that the ripples in the pond causes by the .458 rock are fully attenuated by the time they reach any major nerve center?

Anybody know if they've studied this? If shot with a .577 or a .50BMG, do these big animals suffer immediate shock or incapacitation? Do you think you'd see hydrostatic shock if we could handle a big enough, fast enough shoulder-fired weapon?

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Dr. B, there are a couple of things going on with regard to prejudice against the 460 Wby.

First, being a Wby, it is associated with the Mark V action which by itself stirs up a rather heated debate. Since you are using a MRC PH CRF action, there is no Mark V debate.

Second, the 460 has a venturi shoulder. That is just a marketing feature, and nothing to get hot and bothered about.

Third, many 460 wbys were made with relatively slow twist barrels. If a bullet is understabilized (twist too slow), then penetration will be shallow. You can solve this problem once and for all by ordering a barrel with a 1:10 twist (don't settle for anything less).

As for ballistics, the 450 Dakota, 450 Rigby and 460 Wby all have the same case capacity and can all reach the same max velocity. Being a Wby cartridge, the published data for the 460 is hotter, but a reloader can push all 3 to exactly the same velocity.

Here is a 460 Wby CRF for sale for ony $2975. If it did not have porting, I would buy it. Maybe I will buy it anyway.

4 Weatherby built some of the ugliest rifles known to mankind, a record I doubt will ever be beaten.