I thought that only PHs or A.PHs could do PAC hunts in Zim. Have seen a booking agent selling these for 2011. Legal?? Thanks for any/all clarification!!

To some extent it's a matter of semantics but it would be correct to say that it is not legal for an overseas hunter to take a PAC animal in zimbabwe.

However, a non exportable animal that is not a PAC animal may be a different matter.

A quick search of this forum and the hunts offered forum will give you more info on this subject and whilst you're searching, you might also like to look at the Lacey Act and how this issue can affect US citizens.

Here's the beginning of the sell----

This PH is a wonderfully experienced guy with hundreds of elephant kills to his credit, taken over a long and successful career as a PH. He has guided several of our clients this year alone, and our clients simply loved him. After several very successful elephant and other game hunts, we have made arrangements to offer our clients a total of TEN (10) PAC elephants huntable for 2011. Out last two clients have both indicated they will re-book with him, one for 2011, the other for 2012. PLEASE NOTE: WE ONLY HAVE A QUOTA OF 10 OF THESE!



He is hunting in the area known as the Binga, which is just south of and also borders Lake Kariba and Hwange

PAC are not handed out on "quota" months in advance... the pac permits are issued as and when needed, ie elephants causing problems today, permit issued tomorrow, elephant taken out in the next few days. Most all PAC are taken in the harvest season .. late Feb into Mar and early April.

Regarding the legality of PAC by foreigners, Ganyanag has stated in the past it's not legal. The outfitter who has the area has the duty to take care of PAC, and this is normally handled by the PHs or the appies. The practice in the past has been to allow a client to pull the trigger. But since there is no TR2, this makes the hunt illegal.

There is some possibility of management quota in this area (non exportable and distinct from PAC), but I would insist on seeing the permits issued and stamped by Parks before I released any deposit money.

There has been talk, for some years now, of an extraordinary quota being issued to operators (beyond CITES) across Zim, to deal with the burgeoning elephant population. This is above and beyond the CITES quota, and the Parks rations quota that has been the source of such "management" permits to date. The intention is that this quota will be utilized by foreign hunters. However, the whole thing is a gray area and has been on again/off again for some years now, for reasons I don't fully comprehend.

The Binga communal area has been worked over really hard by Broom and he then sold it to another operator whose name I don't recall at the moment. Almost nothing left except the odd elephant and baboons. It does not border Hwange (National Park). That's many miles to the West.

Agent sounds like a big BSer.

quote:

Posted 24 October 2010 10:00
PAC are not handed out on "quota" months in advance... the pac permits are issued as and when needed, ie elephants causing problems today, permit issued tomorrow, elephant taken out in the next few days.

This is the most logical statement that covers PAC situations - so much said for the "Urgent Lion Hunt", the recent single "problem buffalo" that found itself herded into a corral, etc.

Very well defined Russ

quote:

Agent sounds like a big BSer.

sure does - wouldn't trust anybody that comes on like that

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Posted 24 October 2010 10:00
PAC are not handed out on "quota" months in advance... the pac permits are issued as and when needed, ie elephants causing problems today, permit issued tomorrow, elephant taken out in the next few days.

This is the most logical statement that covers PAC situations - so much said for the "Urgent Lion Hunt", the recent single "problem buffalo" that found itself herded into a corral, etc.

Very well defined Russ

An exception are problem animals on Communal Lands. History has shown that these areas have a continual problem with elephant crop raiders that occurs every year during the crop season. The safari operator has enough confidence to be able to offer a number of crop raiding bulls to clients in advance. I believe the Comunal Council sets the quota with concurence from NP.

465H&H

Thanks for all the info. Sounds more like a management quota and not a "PAC" hunt. Bad advertizement on their part! I will stay clear of this hunt!

Skip, as you know, PAC is Problem Animal Control. How would someone know when an Elephant would become a problem next year? It is an often used tern but incorrect, and illegal. Culling and management permits allow foreign hunters to take legal Elephant's, but anymore one must check into the legality of any permits that come from Gov't sources. If they can put money in their pocket, they'll sell you the Brooklyn bridge, regardless of your consequences...they (Gov't) could care less.
Cheers,
David

Hi Skip!

Stay away from advertised PAC hunts- Bottom line they are illegal. Will keep you posted on possibility of "management quota" which is been discussed at higher levels- I personally do not agree with selling of "management Quota"but it will be out of the control mere Phs!Hope to see you at the shows!

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Hi Skip!

Stay away from advertised PAC hunts- Bottom line they are illegal. Will keep you posted on possibility of "management quota" which is been discussed at higher levels- I personally do not agree with selling of "management Quota"but it will be out of the control mere Phs!Hope to see you at the shows!

Hi Buzz.

Why dont you agree with selling of "management quotas"??



Ulrik

Are we talking about the same thing as tuskless female elephants in ZIM? Aren't these legal altho unimportable?

National Parks are a) broke and b) have a surplus elephant population. They are looking at introducing more elephant on quotas both in the safari areas and even in the national parks as 'management' quota

As any biologist will tell you there are some serious flaws with this especially on animals like elephants where there are social repercusions as well and simply remval of the best breeding animals...and indeed on 'management' hunts for cows which ran from 1960-1992 we found that hunters invarably shot the cow with the biggest tusks..over the period 1953-1993 mean tusk weight of bull ivory harvested in Zimbabwe fell by 47% (see my doctorate)..much of this is attributed to poor control of 'management' hunts rather than the trophy offtake being too high

Management hunts can be done right..eg you will not shoot a bull under 25 years of age and carrying more than 25lbs a side...but the parks staf have to be able to age the elephant from it's teeth and not be bribed. etc. Most of Europe manages very sucessful 'management' hunt programmes but, not with elephants and not in the zimbabwe situation.

Hi Ulrik

In principle I agree with them, however I do not believe that Parks will be able to control and manage the " management quota" effieciently and more importanatly keep them from been corrupt free.

They attempted selling mamagement hunts in the past in Wankie and I have seen with my own eyes gross misconduct for finacial gain been perpetrated under the guise of "management hunts" including a "non trophy bull" of over 100 lbs been shot. Non of these culprits have been bought to book and as far as I hear the hunting in the park has continued unabated.

I also begin to wonder whether we do infact have surplus numbers of elephant that warrent culling/management. Out of 8 of my closest friends this season we have found over 80 poached elephant- thats an average of 10 eles per ph per season- quite staggering!

I feel that no management hunts should be conducted until parks complete a full airial survey to determine exactly how many eles we actually have and get on top of the rampant poaching.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Hi Ulrik

In principle I agree with them, however I do not believe that Parks will be able to control and manage the " management quota" effieciently and more importanatly keep them from been corrupt free.

They attempted selling mamagement hunts in the past in Wankie and I have seen with my own eyes gross misconduct for finacial gain been perpetrated under the guise of "management hunts" including a "non trophy bull" of over 100 lbs been shot. Non of these culprits have been bought to book and as far as I hear the hunting in the park has continued unabated.

I also begin to wonder whether we do infact have surplus numbers of elephant that warrent culling/management. Out of 8 of my closest friends this season we have found over 80 poached elephant- thats an average of 10 eles per ph per season- quite staggering!

I feel that no management hunts should be conducted until parks complete a full airial survey to determine exactly how many eles we actually have and get on top of the rampant poaching.

well Buzz - I can only agree with that statement..
I just returned from Zim, hunted Chete and Chirisa, took one trophy ele and one management bull + one management cow, an old one with worn and broken tusks.. Hunted with Thulani Dube and Theo de Marillac. Exciting hunting indeed, I like this management deals, but of course they have to be legal and sensible. And as Don says - the right animals have to be shot..

Ulrik

Trying to control the population by shooting only bulls and ancient cows is futile. A true management program would entail, by definition, shooting young and mature cows. Since you very seldom find a breeding cow without a dependent calf, you now have to shoot the calf as well. Not many hunters have the stomach for that. And to prevent later "vindictive" elephant reprisals, you need to shoot the whole herd of cows/calves. Not many hunters have the ability to pull that off ... you need three shooters working in a team to do it right.

Shooting tuskless cows works but you almost never find a tuskless cow on her own, so again, you have to deal with the traumatized cows that were with the cow that was shot. On my last visit to Zim, a hunter shot a TL cow. The next day, they had to shoot the young bull that was with her, he wouldn't abandon his mother.

Elephant society is a little more complex than most realize. The elephants in Zim are pretty educated nowadays re hunters and I expect that "incidents" will increase. They say an elephant never forgets.

Having said all that, I now have confirmation that a substantial quota of management elephant will be issued/has been issued to licenced operators in Zim for this coming year. These elephant will be hunted in (illegal), or around the periphery of the National Parks. The 10 elephant referred to in this post, for the Binga area, are highly likely to be part of this quota. Separately, I am told that Parks is now encouraging the culling of cows as part of this program. The revenue from this program will accrue to Parks, not to the political machine, although there is a risk that some of the funds will find their way to Harare.