Hey Buddy, I know you're just kidding about the macho "BS" ... just as I am. I'll be the first to admit that I can't do the good work at distance with the .416's, I can with the .375. Under 150 yards, it's close. I like the Lott and larger calibers for the surer game reaction. I do enjoy the power ... whether or not it's necessary is another thread. I want, one day, to be able to speak of all the heavy calibers with some small degree of authority. That's all there is to it.

I tend to think the .375 - .404 class of cartridges are best for the vast majority of visiting buffalo hunters, myself included .... maybe!

For ele, at usual range and with the consistant use of tripods, I think the larger chamberings are justified.

The way it really is ...

As best a rule can be had for, making a "class summary" of individual rifles that can have great variability:

The .458 WinMag is good for 2150 fps with 500 grainers from a 24" barrel with good handloads, but at high pressures and with considerable powder compression.

The .458 Lott is good for 2250 fps with no pressure worries or powder compression feats, with the 500 grain bullet and 24" barrel.

Both will do the job, take your pick.
*************************************

BTW, I take exception to the crybaby posts about brutal recoil induced by the CZ Lux stock. I shoot them in .458 WinMag, .458 Lott, and 45 Lapua, all weighing around 9.25 to 9.5 pounds.

I find the 9.5# 45 Lapua with 500 grainers at +2400 fps to be very pleasant in the Lux stock.

I suspect the recoil sensitive critics of the Lux stock simply need to improve their attitudes and shooting techniques. I suspect the novelty of a different appearance of the stock scares them into hurting themselves.

Yes, I have compared my factory stocked Ruger .416 Rigby to my factory hogback .416 Rigby CZ 550, with both tricked out to within 4 ounces shooting weight and same loads. I can't tell any difference in comfort. I also have put the CZ in a synthetic Armtec stock with negative drop/straight comb, similar to the B&C synthetics and Winchester negative drop Safari Express stocks of late.

The Lux stock does not add to discomfort over any of these.

The Lux stock is the best compromise for iron sights and use of scope. There is no better. CZ are not idiots.

Anyone wishing to discard their Lux stocks, send them to me. There is some amazingly good wood in some of them, and the factory folks had my measurements in mind when they set the specifications.

To the deformed individuals that do not fit the Lux stock, my sympathies.

This is the crybaby, responding to drug induced Ron, or Dagaron, for short.

Even with a straight McMillan stock it is still punishing. What can I say?

Oh yeah, I heard that the Kentucky state motto is "Nothing says lovin' like marryin' yur cuzzin'."

This may be why you cannot differentiate between straight and hogback stocks.

(just kidding in case you can't tell!).

My $ is on DagaRon to shoot the best groups with the biggest guns @ AR. However, Will is being polite in referring to him as "drug induced". The correct diagnosis is "nuts"!

We have a couple of articles on the African Hunter website that are germane to this topic.

Charlie Haley's take on the .458 and the problems associated with it.

http://www.african-hunter.com/Whats%20Wrong.htm

Also, Cal Pappas' look at the history of the .450 Watts/.458 Lott.

http://www.african-hunter.com/458_watts___458_lott.htm

If you access the site and find missing images and/or navigation bar, hold down the Control key and click on Refresh. We have had a bout of technical issues affecting the site for the last couple of weeks, and your cache memory may need to be flushed.

Alan

[ 07-27-2003, 00:23: Message edited by: Alan Bunn ]

Dear Ron,
So far you�re the only person I�ve heard of that LIKES the CZ stock. Been there, done that and it simply doens�t work for me, or the majority of the hunters I know.

I think we can safely say that the best rifles ever made were made by the British. CZ has been making low priced copies of good actions and here they have had success.

But their stocks stink. Period.

Will,
Take it back. The "drug induced" part. Nick is right. I am on no drugs whatsoever, but I do guess that you need them to get through a shooting session. Not me. Yep, I'm "nuts" but so is every "old boy" here.

Yep, the CZ Lux stock is the greatest compromise stock for a rifle utilizing both iron sights and a scope interchangeably.

If you old boys "think" it hurts you ... well, you must be soft, either in the head or the shoulder.

cewe,
The old British pattern rifles were excellent with iron sights, but ungainly with scopes.

Plane down the comb of the hogback Lux from nose to heel in a straight line, and reshape the cheekpiece and forend tip (with these latter touches being only cosmetic for the elitist-wannabe mob mentality).

What do you get? Why an old British style stock that is good with irons and lousy with a scope, unless head is held high, nose up, in the pose of an elitist-wannabe mob member sniffing for the stink of the Lux stock.

Yep, that little hogback bulge makes the Lux the greatest compromise for Irons and Scope use. The open minded can get used to the appearance. If you think it stinks, then you may just be confused, or smelling your own hot air, Doctor.

[ 07-27-2003, 01:21: Message edited by: DagaRon ]

DagaRon,

Gee, I feel slighted. I was hoping for so much more than that.

Oh well, time to start watering the "potted" plants, anyway.

Will,
I couldn't pick my family tree. At least we got some Cherokee blood mixed in to reduce the effects of the inbreeding, which might just include recoil tolerance.

Now you get back to the watering, and consider some pushups.

why do i not hear a mention of the 460 weatherby, is it because of recoil or other costs, really gentlemen if you are big time hunters (tongue in cheek) go for the weapon that will do the job

Allan Bunn,
Good article on the .458 Winchester. I'm glad to see it concurs with the employment of select powders and monolithics of reduced weight. The Barnes 450 "X" or Super Solid @ 2,250, for example, makes this the cartridge it was intended to be.

Do them trees in Kentucky have more than one branch?

Next time I find a Victoria's Secret that I'm not banned from, I'll look for those pushups.

Will,
Let's get serious. I forgot about your sex change operation and the female hormone drugs you have been taking. Now I understand your problem.

We in Kentucky can be gracious and accepting of your sort. Please come visit us. If you will leave your pushup bra at home, hopefully none of the locals will ask you to "get them panties off" nor to "squeal like a pig." For comfort sake, you ought to bring some "KY Jelly" with you though, and that does not mean wild blackberry jam.

Finally, something more than "them hogback stocks sure are good."

It seems like a cottage industry of producing and loading 450 grain .458 bullets is just waiting to happen.

Will, if you want to fit in better here, you should say: "Them hogback stocks sure IS good." Then squeal like a pig. They might be so amused they might just pat you on the back and forget all about your pushup bra and panties from Victoria's.

you guys have totally lost me? drugs, sex changes, 450 grain bullets and worst of all weatherby's? what the hell is go'in on here. i feel bad i ever mentioned the win mag was still an ok round, i did not know certain peoples manhood or womanhood (after appropriate salves and ointment was applied) would be questioned!!!

Dagaron,

The CZ stock stinks. Period. Get it? If you mount a scope correctly on an english stoc�k it will work just fine but it has to be a low mount -not way up in the air like on a leveraction Win.

The inbreeding explains a lot though. Myself I�m of a manly build, tall and handsome, and most off the off the rack shit that you get with a new gun is simply to small for my build.

Cz makes guns for physical (mental? joke!) midgets.

Why not change your id to Quasimodo?

/

I like the hogs back, i changed one of my cz's stocks and when I looked back on it it was a waste of money. I could have purchased another CZ for the price that stock cost

Alf,
Amen, brother. The Euro styling is a refreshing breath of fresh air amongst the monotonous sameness that the elitist sycophants foist upon one another. The Bavarian style contains the echoes of the Jaeger-Pennsylvania-Kentucky flintlocks, and warms my heart. A cosmopolitan like the good doctor from RSA by way of BC would of course be wise to the wonderful shootability of this style stock.

cewe,
You are showing your ignorance. I would say the inbreeding problem where you live must be quite a bit more severe than it is here in Kentucky. Must be similar to that country where there are so many Johansens that the government is asking the folks to make up new names so the mail won't be so hard to deliver in the apartment buildings. cewe has wrestled with a pig and gotten dirty, as I am a pig for the truth. Oink oink.

PC,
I have a McMillan (500 A2), an ArmTec (.416 Rigby), and custom walnut classic express (.375 RUM) stocks on CZ 550 Magnum and BRNO ZKK 602 rifles.

The hogback shoots more comfortably than any of the above in calibers up to .458 500 grainers at near 2500 fps in a 9.5# rifle. This is the most I have tried with the Lux stock, and it is very comfortable.

I am glad to see that you are not light in the loafers and have the sense to recognize the outstanding qualities of the Lux for recoil management and shootability with irons and scopes interchangeably.
Cheers!

Actually Dagaron, I will own up and tell you it was through not being able to afford to change stocks on my other cz (.375) that I found that the hogs back is very good, and when I get my .458 Lott the hogs back will be staying so you could say I discovered by default

Oh geez! Apologetic for trying the hogback without replacing it right off. Forced to break the rule of the elitist sycophants by an inopportune lack of funds? Discovered how good the hogback is by default?

That sort of thinking shows the extent of the brainwashing going on amongst the light-in-the-loafers crowd that thinks the Lux stock "stinks." I have been baffled by their hue and cry against the hogback, but your statement illustrates the thinking of that crowd. Glad you have broken free from the lockstep with the sheep.

A sheep no more!

Now how is it that the 14" pull, and adequate drop and recoil gentling pitch of the hogback off the shelf is designed for midgets and hunchbacks? Of course it is not. That is merely more of the foul smelling hot air from cewe.

cewe is just showing his ignorance. More of the mindless sheep behavior of someone who has probably not even tried the hogback in a heavy recoiling rifle.

Wake up and smell your brain fart, cewe, and know the source of the "stink."

I need to get to the range and touch off some 600 grain 45 Lapua loads in the pillar bedded and crossbolted Lux stock of my CZ. Sure works for me.

Aloha

Dagaron,

This has been fun but I�d like to call a truce before we end up like the Hatfields and that other family.

I had a CZ in 458 WM and wasn�t able to handle it, scared the shit out of me. Not the recoil but the muzzlejump. I sold it and was about to quit magnums altogether when boha let me try his Kettner in .375 H&H and some stiff handloads.

After that I was back in business.

I tried my PH�s 416. Rigby (Ruger, nice gun) and had no problems with it -the stock is nice and straight.

I would have been happy with the CZ but it was not to be. The .458 WM is obsolete though and I�d go with the Lott anyday -or the .416 Rigby that my gunsmith is putting together for me.

Happy hunting.

With your pigsknuckle cheapie.

The proper pitch that the CZ Lux stock has counteracts the muzzle rise caused by the drop of the butt. That pitch at the butt also makes the rifle shoulder and hang more comfortably.

The fine old English guns that cewe thinks tops were set up like this too. A lot of drop with proper pitch, and designed for iron sights and offhand shooting.

No less authority than the renowned Atkinson notes how the combination of a little rise smooths recoil.

I suspect that cewe has not tried shooting the CZ Lux offhand to see how the pitch and drop smooth and ease recoil. He has probably only shot it off the bench, if at all, just allowing it to be bounced off the rests under restraint, and not allowed the dynamics of field shooting to come into play. Same for Will.

If your cheek weld crawls forward a bit on the Lux hogback your eye lines up the irons. If you don't crawl the stock, the gentle rise of the hogback rearward makes the eye line up a 2.5X Leupold in Warne low QD mounts perfectly, with a good cheek weld. If one wants an iron sight only stock, like ye olde English, then just plane down the hogback to a straight comb and refinish the stock.

The stink is still from cewe's BS.

I suspect that the stink germinated from elitist sycophants that want to maintain their turf, and has been encouraged by commercial interests that want to separate the shooter from more of his money than what the marvelous CZ costs.

BTW, cewe, I am very familiar with the various stocks you say are so superior. I like them, own them, and use them alongside my hogbacks with equal pride. The CZ Lux is a superior design, and is seen as stinko only by sheep.

I am a pig at the trough of truth. Oink oink.

[ 07-27-2003, 23:29: Message edited by: DagaRon ]

GAnyana,
I have never seen a Lott that was not on a standard length action, FN, Mauser 98, or Win M-70...

Properly openned in the rear with the addition of a Blackburn magazine box, with rails opened they work all great..the Lott is shorter than a 375 H&H, so it works great with any action that will take a 375 H&H...and yes the side of the rear ring should be scolloped and a slot cut in the top of the front ring is acceptable..IF I understand your post properly??

Dagaron, dear friend and comrade,

I only shot the gun offhand and it hit nicely and no I�m not overly rich and I don�t own many fancy guns but the CZ was not made for me.

I�d rather spend more money on a few guns than own a whole closet full of things I don�t use.

Case closed on my part -it was fun though.

458 Lott...Just came back from the range with my Ruger Model 77 458 Lott...Fired 14 shots with a Pachmayr 990 pad...It really surprised me...The recoil was not bad In fact I fired it from shoting sticks and then off hand at 30yds for the first time and I have no bruises and alot less anxiety now...Will not install a muzzle brake...Gun only rose maybe six inches with recoil upward movement
Was shooting Hornady 500gr soft RN...

Mike

Freedom is not Free

I hope that Ray has cleared up Ganyana's confusion, but I am surprised that Ray has never seen a CZ 550 Magnum converted to .458 Lott.

Enough of the Hatfields and McCoys then, cewe, but don't pee on my hogback and tell me it is raining.

And Nickudu has finally got me thinking of the 450 grain Bullet and mono solid combo. 2400 fps in the .458 Lott +/- 50 fps. Excellent. SD = 0.306 and BC = 0.488. Utterly adequate.

Maybe my 45 Lapua will do 2600 fps +/- 50 fps with it? That would make it a KISS principle rifle with one bullet weight for everything. And so gentle in a CZ Lux stock! I'll have to down load it for buffalo. Low pressure 2400 fps for up close, and higher pressure plains game loads for afar.

I see that I am going to have to get some 450 grain X-Bullets and Barnes solids for the 45 Lapua.

Dagaron,

It was the McCoys! Of course. How could I forget that?

One of my favorite guns is an old russian military issue rifle from WWII that was rechambered for the very Finnish cal of 8.2x53R. I scoped it with a Zeiss Jena -Soviet military issue 8x56- none of the components costing more than 100$ tops. It�s ugly as hell but great for late night whitetail.

It�s special, just like your hogbacks.

Peace bro.

I got a CZ550 (416 Rigby) -- complete with Lux/Hogback stock and I love it and have NO intentions of discarding the stock! Before buying, I visited Cabelas and they laid out a CZ550 416Rigby, M70 416RemMag, and a Ruger 416 Rigby. I'm 6'5" and 225#. I did the "closed eyes" test on all three and only with the CZ were the sights lined right up and my thumb well away from my nose. The CZ's fit was outstanding right out of the box. The fact it was the least expensive of the three was the last variable considered. Function over beauty! (I am fond of M70's BTW.)

Now with the $$$ saved going with a CZ 416 Rigby, I am looking at going after a CZ 458WinMag and have it conversion reamed to 458 Lott. Nice of CZ to chamber the 458WinMag in a nice long action! One in the tube and 4 in the well -- stand back.

Two for the price of one -- hard to beat.

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

Daga,
No, as a matter of fact I have not seen a CZ 550 converted to a 458 Lott...like I said...

I would think that would have all the indications of a BB in a box car, and that such an action would lend itself better to a 505 or 500 Jefferys or even the 450 Dakota...but I don't know as I have had little to do with the CZs, but they must be a good rifle from all I hear....

What I am saying is the Lott lends itself to any action the 375 does and that would include a properly opened up in the rear M-98, FN or of course a M-70....which 99% of the LOtts out there are...I don't necessairly disagree, but both options are viable...Do you doubt that?

ELKampMaster,

a cz in a lott .458 will give you a 6 banger and with a touch of work you will get 7 shots. There a great rifle and quite addictive !!

Ray,
I do not doubt your veracity. I am just surprised at your inexperience in this area. You ain't lived until you have seen a CZ 550 Magnum converted to .458 Lott. A BB in a boxcar it ain't. You really ough to get out more often and experience some new things.

I guess I should get out more, but I'm about maxed out just keeping you in KY jelly, BTW it ain't rock candy, I was just kid'en you...

Just to be honest, I really have no problem condeming the Barvarian style stocks, I think they are an abomination of the craft, gee sorry guys, but thats just the way it is...now don't misinturpet me, they do handle recoil well enough but they are ugly as s--t....and just because they been around for 150 years longer than we have doesn't make them a good stock, least we would all be living in caves, I always thought the stone axe was ugly Alf!!!

Ray,
Could it just be a mental thing for you who abhor the hogback? You really should not be so closed minded. The hogback can grow on one. A well rounded individual can appreciate some cultural diversity.

However, I have about decided that it is only those with short arms, fat faces, hunched backs, and thick heads that cannot appreciate the beauty of the CZ Lux stock.

At least you realize how functional they are in recoil management.

Alf & DagaRon,

I don't own one of the new CZ 550's but I once had a .30-06 which was made in Switzerland that featured a Bavarian style hogsback stock. I think they are an elegant design, and very practical and useful.

This notion that you HAVE to replace the stock on the CZ is nonsense. It's the most "good to go" right out of the box DGR than any rifle in current production IMO.

What is even more absurd is the mindset that a rifle must conform to a certain pre-conceived look, before it is suitable for the hunt. Are these guys hunting buffalo or going to the prom?

Nickudu,

I picked up a box of .458 Lott from Safari Arms Ltd. at SCI/Reno that is loaded 50/50 with 500 gr. Barnes X and Super Solids.

http://www.safariarms.com

I haven't had a chance to chrono them yet, but do have a new Oehler 35P that needs breaking in. They claim 2300 fps, but I don't know how they will shoot out of my Model 70 yet.

Also, there is some good info on both the 500gr. and 450gr. X-bullets, and the Lott in general if you click on the Cartridge Spotlight button. They have had a good bit of experience loading these, so you should find the article interesting.

Alan