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No mayhem intended.I just wonder why so much difference in penetration.I couldn't even hazard a guess. Regards, brair | |||
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That would be getting into mayhem, with the different theories and differring opinions. Suffice to say that the flat nose shape is the reason. Some believe the enhanced penetration is caused by cavitation, some believe its shoulder stabilization which leads to its lack of tumbling, as round nose seem want after they have lost much of their velocity, some believe its the greater rotational stability in the lighter weight flat nose, and on ... There is much to read if you do a search here and one the Big Bores forum. Whatever the reason, its is there and wide flat nose solids, especially those of truncated cone shape, like NF or GS Custom, penetrate deeper than round nose solids. Best to use a lighter (about 10% lighter, I think) mono flat nose than the "standard" weight for calibre lead core solid. IE, 450 in lieu of 500's, 270 in lieu of 300, etc. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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 ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Dirk, Can you please tell me the conversion form clicks to wrinkles as I shoot a 1x4 swarovski... Thanks, Jeff | |||
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Last thing I'd be doing is counting "wrinkles"  More like shouting in a high pitched voice "F'ing shoot everybody just shoot". "When doing battle, seek a quick victory." | |||
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I don't want to hijack this thread which is very interesting, however, my question is: Would you ever NOT load up solids when hunting elephants? Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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No. But a number of eles have been killed by non solids, including the old Barnes X and North Fork cup nose expanding monos that I know of. The fellow I know of who used the Barnes X did so because his solid ammo, in 460 WTHBY, went missing on the trip over. He killed the bull ele with a side brain shot, and the bullet failed to exit, but penetrated enough to kill the ele. Mike from North Fork, who strongly advises against using the cup points for elephants, told me that despite this a couple had been used successfully on eles. The cup points expand a little bit and penetrate about 20% less than North Fork solids, which leaves plenty of penetration. I will try a cup point on a cow ele someday soon, just to see what happens. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Thanks JPK, that's what I thought. I am not surprised about the old Barnes X bullets as I thought they had a reputation for NOT expanding but rather "penciling" through. I tried them on baboons in Namibia (with a 30.06) and I know I hit, but the baboons were not recovered (that's my story and I'm sticking to it!). What are the characteristics of the TSX bullets? There is a reason for my question! I have some GS Custom 280 FN's (in 375) which are wonderfully accurate in my Blaser, but DON'T FEED! I may therefore have to find something else. In my experience the 300 TSX's are very accurate but if they expand then I will have to find something else. Not that the 375 is my first choice. I have a 416 Rigby and some doubles as well, but, you never know! Thanks, Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Peter, The flat nose feeding issues are best solved with the world's most reliable loading system for two shots and then subsequent shots. That is the well practiced human hand loading a double rifle! You know you will get two, and flat nose or round nose, loading the next one or two, if you have time to load two, is no different. Moreover, the double rifle is the quintessential elephant rifle. For a bolt, either get a good DG gunsmith to get it squared away, or load one flat point up the spout and then round noses. In the 375H&H, Woodleigh 300gr solids provide adequate penetration. Same story with the 416. I would have equal confidence loading Woodleighs, North Forks, GS Customs or the new Hornadays. But the NF and GS flat noses will give more penetration. I load a Woodliegh in my right barrel and a NF in my left because I believe that Woodleighs are better at penetrating bone for the brain shot (especially through the zygomatic arch on a side brain shot if you are close) and if I need a second shot, it will either be and insurance shot or a shot which may require maximum penetration, like a going away raking shot. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Will, I am certainly no expert but I think the angle of entry surely does matter. Can you please explain your statement? I am a bit puzzeled. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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Mike, When I was a grasshopper, that was before I became a crabby old man, I thought it made a difference.  If when somebody posts a picture of elephants, like David did here, there are two approaches: 1) Aren't they cute and lovable looking critters, Or, 2) Bang, you're dead. Bang, you're dead: Until your first reaction when you see an elephant or a picture of an elephant is to "shoot" for the brain, then you are still a tourist and not an elephant slayer!! Some day you will kill enough elephants to know that you are shooting at a point in space and not a big glob hiding inside an elephant somewhere. This is why it is confusing and futile to look at these kind of shot placement sites and books because they only confuse things and are quite irrelevant: http://www.africahunting.com/h...-shot-placement.html This site shows every possible angle depending on how far away the hunter is in front of the elephant. So what? Who cares? It only proves that the guy was a great artist but not an elephant hunter. Think about it, hard! You are shooting at a point in space. It doesn't matter if the elephant is lying on the ground, upside down, and laughing its ass off, I am shooting at a point. The angle doesn't matter. I can't remember whether you have bought my book, but if you haven't ..... And look for the complete work on the elephant brain shot: Elephants and Elephant Guns copyrighted and coming soon! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I would say the correct answer would be wait for him to finish drinking  If he were to get your scent, I could imagine him raising his trunk and maybe his head, but otherwise it sounds like a shot to avoid if possible...wait for a better shot. If Saeed's .375/404 failed to make it, I am sure many other calibres would not have made it either! Just goes to show how much penetration you need on a frontal shot on a big bull. | |||
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Will, I get it now. I was either over tired or just being stupid. I realize the aim point is the same. The angle only changes relative to the hunter. Unfotunately I doubt I will ever have the opportunity to shoot that many elephants.  More would be nice but short of winning the lottery I dont see that happening. I never got to read your book as it was donated to my local SCI chapter for the silent auction. Guess I will have to break down and buy my own copy. I understand the instinctual shooting. I typically dont think about my shot placement as much as just do it. Now, even if my reasoning was a bit cloudy was or was not my initial answer the correct one for shot placement? I am still not sure I am thinking about this correctly.Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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My suggestion : given the surroundings are open bush , wait for a side shot , personaly would not recommend the frontal brain shot unless no options existed , but if this was hypothetical - then below the dot by a 1/2 fold is safer , so as to be in line with the arches and ear hole axis. | |||
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And it only took 12 days and not less than 12 seconds to decide where to shoot! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Well Will, that's obviously because you held back your wisdom from us peons. Next time, step in sooner and save us from our ignorance! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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OK ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Baised on the elephants I have head shot with my 450 No2 and 480 Woodleigh Solids and 450gr North Fork Flat Points, I would agree with JPK's post. At no time, from ANY angle did the Woodleigh Solids fail to provide more than adequate penetration, the NFFP's just give more. The North Fork bullets are Primo for sure. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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