Adam posted this photo on the "Elephant Gallery" thread. What a great photo!

Anyway, I'm practicing where to aim for frontal brain shots and this is an interesting angle. I don't know how to put a dot on the photo, but I'm thinking at the far right (our right) end of the 10th deep crease.

What do you guys think?

Assuming that I was ten to twenty yards away, I'd aim at the red dot.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Assuming that I was ten to twenty yards away, I'd aim at the red dot.

I agree... maybe one half crease below would be my reasoned opinion... however, at first glance, I'd have shot much higher. A tough angle, for sure.

I believe Ann shot an elephant a couple of years ago that was head up and coming forward with the same angle. She posted a video. Ann dumped the elephant drt with a .375 H&H pretty far down the trunk. I tried to find a link, but couldn't. It was an impressive shot, but Ann is impressive, too!

I "think" I would shoot two creases below the red dot. This would put me on line between the widest part of the arches.

The problem with this picture is that it was taken from some distance with a long lens(I assume). If you were 10 yards away you would have to be standing on higher ground than the elephant to get the shot presented in the photo.

Mrlexma, would you be so kind as to post that same photo with your dot, but move the dot to the next black crease down, and to the far right (our right) of the crease where it ends. That is where I would shoot.

I'm thinking that if onewere to shoot where the red dot is now, that by the time it travels 2 1/2 feet back to the brain, it would be too far to our left of the brain. But what do I know, I've never shot an elephant.

Assuming shooting angle is like the picture, one wrinkle below the red dot.

Ed

Get a copy of "Hunting the African Elephant" by CM Safaris. It has lots of video with detailed shot placements using red dots. Ann's video is included along with mine. She did a better job than me.

I would shoot one crease up and a touch to the right. Just above where the black "divot" is on the fold above MR's line.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Assuming that I was ten to twenty yards away, I'd aim at the red dot.

I agree... maybe one half crease below would be my reasoned opinion...

+1

Keep guessing boys!

I don't know where you SHOULD shoot but that is an exact duplicate of my first Elephant and I can tell you I put the horizontal crosswire actoss his eyes (almost as the red dot illustration) and pulled the trigger. 300gr Woodleigh Solid in a 375H&H. He collapsed on his back legs as if sitting down. Immediate collapse. Just as immediately he came back up just as a Jack-in-the-box would and whirled around to the right and was gone in a flash. I put a second shot,also too high, in his left side as he whirled. He and 3 other ele's were gone down hill with the PH yelling to not shoot again as I might hit the wrong one. I knew exactly which one was the one I shot but did not take another shot. He stopped in high grass that completely hid him. I could tell he stopped as the grass didn't move. Then he started to move off as you could clearly see the grass moving as he went thru it. We went to the place he stopped and there was copius amounts of red frothy blood on the ground as if it came out his trunk,and to me would lidicate a lung shot. He moved quickley into a Safari Area where we had no permission to follow. He was later found dead I understand. So I don't know where you SHOULD shoot him but in my case that ain't it. Have not taken any more brain shots.

SBT,

As you are hunting with Nixon, this shot will not be taken as he will insist on a shoulder shot only. The only way you would shoot this angle with Dzingai is if things have gone badly. Still good info to know however.

I am a short shit so a couple creases below the dot. Definitely a steeper angle for me than most.

JBrown - no big lens on this picture and the lens used was a 18-105 on a Nikon D200 and was approx 20-25 yards.

Oh, my! I am no expert on brain shots on elephant, but thanks to Ivan Carter I have had "immersion therapy" the last couple of years. In my opinion the dot is about right, mebbe an inch or two left as someone suggested, but probably close enough. The biggest variable here is penetration, or lack thereof. As "Zimbabwe" learned (good, honest, and most valuable analysis, "Zim"!!!!!), the brain shot doesn't always go according to plan. And, no, regardless of who said it, and with no aspersions cast on those who did say it, a "near miss" to the brain will not automatically "stun" an elephant and allow an easy followup shot--no matter what you are shooting. The most common reaction to a bullete that fails to reach the brain, whether for placement or lack or penetration, is the fastest attempted exit you will ever see. Just in the past year I have seen multiple reasonably placed brain shots fail with cartridges up to the .577 and .700 Nitro Express, not to mention several lesser but adequate cartridges. I have seen elephants stunned for moments or seconds, but even with these cannons I have also seen them turn to go without a stumble. The problem with this photo, and this presentation, is the head angle. Yes, you must shoot well down the trunk, attempting to "break the broomstick" between the ear holes. This shot requires the maximum penetration you can ask of a bullet. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And, to some degree, it depends on the size of the elephant as well as the caliber, bullet, and velocity. Johan Calitz, who has more experience with the giant Botswana bulls than anyone I know, simply says, "You NEVER do the frontal brain shot when the head is up." NOTE: When his head is up like this he is not charging. He will either drop his head, or turn to go, either situation offering a better shot. But, okay, sometimes that's the shot you have--but you'd better be ready to shoot again as he turns, either the much easier side-brain shot, or the shoulder. Again, I'm no expert on elephant and never will be--but we've done this an awful lot the last couple of years, and with a really big bull at this angle I wouldn't lay any bets that shot placement alone will turn the trick.
Thanks, C

I shot a very large bodied, one tusker in the same position as shown in the photo.

He lowered his head,turn right and took off. Luckily, Roy gave him a heart shot as he turned, and that dropped him after running about a 100 yards or so.

We did an autopsy, and found my bullet was almost perfectly placed, but it did not make it to the brain.

It actually stopped a couple of inches before.

We put a cleaning rod through the bullet hole, and it almost disappeared completely.

At that angle, there is so much trunk for the bullet to go through, making it to the brain becomes very hard.

I was using our own 375/404, with 300 grains Barnes Super Solid.

I have shot other elephants, both bulls and cows, with a frontal brain shot. But those had their heads down in a normal position.

They all dropped to the shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Keep guessing boys!

Please tell us where to shoot it then, mighty elephant slayer!

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Keep guessing boys!

Please tell us where to shoot it then, mighty elephant slayer!

He is still guessing himself

quote:

Please tell us where to shoot it then, mighty elephant slayer!

I should have figured this was coming, after hanging my bait! Hey, if YOU are still guessing then you still don't know! I, the all wise and omnipotent elephant slayer, will pass along a few tips.

All the guesses are still too .... ????. Tell me where David.

For one thing it doesn't matter at what angle the elephant is at or whether you are on the flat or a termite mound or whether the elephant is at sixty or six yards. It's still the same shot.

As there is no such thing as absolute straight line penetration, by the time the bullet goes that far who knows where it will wind up, and that is a long way. As Craig Boddington and Saeed have related it is an iffy shot.

But, if you use a caliber and velocity and bullet construction that should yield high penetration it will get it done. Now you guys can try to tell me what that or those are!

And don't deviate too far from what John Taylor said because you'll be wrong!

Okay then....I agree with the Judge and Mike Jines.

Don't know too much about velocity and bullets etc, but one thing I do know is that if it was shot in close proximity to that red dot with a .500, it would go down like five+ tons of potatoes. I would definitely aim a fraction lower....

Dave

This is a run of the mill shot. The head's not that high. A 500gr Woodleigh at 2145fps would make the entire journey, a 450gr NF flat nose at 2220fps will make it with a couple of feet to spare.

Here is an appropriate quote from Ron Thomson, killer of five thousand or so elephants:

"I must say that I have never had ANY trouble getting my Winchester 500 grain .458 Magnum solids penetrating to an elephant's brain, at any angle, at ranges up to FIFTY yards and more."

Emphasis in the original.

"I had the shot right but my rife and bullet failed to provide adequate penetration..." If the rifle is shooting a good solid with a SD of greater than .305 at a velocity of greater than 2100fps (more SD toward 2100fps, more velocity toward .305), the great majority of the time the quote should be read as, "I blew the shot and don't want to admit it so I'm blaming my rifle or bullets..."

JPK

quote:

I would definitely aim a fraction lower....

Me too!!

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
Okay then....I agree with the Judge and Mike Jines.

Don't know too much about velocity and bullets etc, but one thing I do know is that if it was shot in close proximity to that red dot with a .500, it would go down like five+ tons of potatoes. I would definitely aim a fraction lower....

Dave

That's what I like to see, a vote for the .500 NE. Put a shot from a .500 NE (570 grains at 2100 fps) where Judge G noted and I seconded and even if it misses the brain -- which won't be by much if it does miss -- that elephant is going down in heap.

you should check out this shot placement guide for elephants that i found online, good diagrams for brain shot http://www.africahunting.com/h...-shot-placement.html

I am looking at the hair from the eles ear holes and dropping two full wrinkes below that black spot and you can give him a heart shot with trunk out of the way...

Mike

The red dot looks spot on to me. If I did anything different it would be to drop 1 to 2 inches lower, never higher.

465H&H

Better to shoot a little too low than a little too high.

If he is 10 yards or farther I would wait for him to drop his head, or turn.

If he came closer I would bank on him dropping his head.

I would shoot it in Africa...

I also feel if the members who have honestly shared there experinces had been using a 500 the problems would have disappeared

Scott, flat nose solid going anywhere from 2100 to 2250 fps. .450cal or .470 500gr. 416 400gr.

right in that big crease just below the red dot...

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

I would definitely aim a fraction lower....

Me too!!

Will
You wait for someone else to post the same thing as me, and then you agree with him?

You could have just agreed with me in the first place!

I don't know, I would just pee my pants.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I don't know, I would just pee my pants.

The first honest post!

For a vertical aiming point Buzz says use the widest part of the zigomatic arches. That would be a great deal lower than the line in Mrlexma's post.

As you are much lower than the ele (if on level ground) and the brain is so far back in it's head the bullet must follow an upward path from the outside of the trunk where it enters to the brain.

If you're in an elevated position so that you're head is at the level of the ele's eyes then the line in Mrlexma's pic would be about right as the bullet would not need to travel upwards in that case.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

I would definitely aim a fraction lower....

Me too!!

Will
You wait for someone else to post the same thing as me, and then you agree with him?

You could have just agreed with me in the first place!

Jason,

Sorry, I didn't see your post. To be more specific you are probably a tad low but close enough. About 1 1/2 wrinkles, or two like you said, below the red dot is the center of the brain.

The problem is one really shouldn't ball park the shot as a wrinkle or two can make all the difference.

BTW, these are the only fun posts on this site!

One full wrinkle lower and a tad to the left IMO, but that's why I carry a DR in 500 N.E. shooting GS 540 grain FN's @ 2125fps and a very quick second in case I should have shot 1.5 wrinkles low or 1 wrinkle higher, etc., etc.

I hope this question isn't too far off but why will a 450 grain NF flatnose outpenetrate a 500 Woodleigh solid?

Thanks in advance,
Regards,
brair

In the 458WM it will have higher vilocity for the same powder charge. The flat nose is said to help straight line penetration as well.

B

quote:

Originally posted by brair:
I hope this question isn't too far off but why will a 450 grain NF flatnose outpenetrate a 500 Woodleigh solid?

Thanks in advance,
Regards,
brair

I can tell your new here brair, your question has mayhem written all over it, a proverbial pandora's box.

quote:

Originally posted by brair:
I hope this question isn't too far off but why will a 450 grain NF flatnose outpenetrate a 500 Woodleigh solid?

Thanks in advance,
Regards,
brair

I have shot a bunch of both into live and dead elephant heads (and bodies) and the emphatic answer is yes, when the 500gr Woodleigh round nose is traveling 2145fps and the 450gr NF flat nose is traveling 2220fps.

Every frontal shot I've made where I measured penetration points to the neighborhood of 30-40% greater penetration.

JPK