quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

shoot........
so are you stating that you know for a fact that lion is greater than 6 yrs old?Yes, I do
if you are sufficiently certain there are no lactating or pregnant females or dependant young around.
Don't you also require an oral and prostate exam?Talking about yourself again?
You did lure him to the bait didin't you?
Umm, actually I think the story was that they tracked this lion, read and retain Michael, read and retain. [COLOR:GREEN]You got to lure them to the bait Bradley. Only 6 yo come to bait [/color]

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so are you stating that you know for a fact that lion is greater than 6 yrs old?

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Originally posted by zimguide:
He is 12 years old and still holding his area. ..

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See Brad, I was right...again

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Originally posted by Frostbit:
He is 12 years old

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I would shoot . . . and never post a picture on AR.

If we want to be honest with ourselves. I have not seen anything critical posted about a lion on AR that did not need some talking about. I think if you are ashamed to put a trophy on AR...you must be ashamed of it yourself.

quote:

The reason this was posted, is to justify just how difficult it is in the field to see a collar and to know if it has dependent cubs and mating, PH's take so much flack ( Martin Pieters to mention one) on a collared elephant and on a lion that was supposedly "the last lion" of Bumi.


O.K we all shot it and now what?

a. You (and your PH) get abused because you never saw the collar, now you become an unethical hunter.
b. You never knew he was mating, which he was, did you do your "due diligence" on dependent cubs?
c. And yes, he is 12 years old, believe me no narrow face and no Mohican!! So it is pretty hard to determine age, is it not?
d. And he had a name which will be thrown in your face.

quote:

Originally posted by zimguide:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
we have all heard the advice about don't shoot until the PH gives the OK. WELL, IF HE SAYS SHOOT, HE BETTER PLUG HIS EARS. the buffalo in the background makes me think that this guy is in a game park

Spot on about the game park. This lion is known as Goose by the lion research team in Hwange and by all the guides alike. He is 12 years old and still holding his area. Interestingly he is one of the few lions in Hwange that has a territory that at no place goes into the hunting area as he is surrounded on all sides by other territories. He is as feisty now as he ever was and he has always been feisty..

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Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

See Brad, I was right...again

You are the man Michael.

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Originally posted by Mike70560:
I would have shot also. I have been in elephant and buffalo herds and was never scared. Snakes do not bother me (for the most part). Lions in the wild scare the hell out of me.

I do not know if I will ever hunt one. It is the only one of the big four I have not taken.

Now for the rest of the story.

The reason this was posted, is to justify just how difficult it is in the field to see a collar and to know if it has dependent cubs and mating, PH's take so much flack ( Martin Pieters to mention one) on a collared elephant and on a lion that was supposedly "the last lion" of Bumi.

O.K we all shot it and now what?

a. You (and your PH) get abused because you never saw the collar, now you become an unethical hunter. It would be hard NOT to see the collar in real life hunitng conditions. Not saying it therefore should not be shot because of the collar...
b. You never knew he was mating, which he was, did you do your "due diligence" on dependent cubs? This is why the baiting method remains the preferred method for doing due diligence
c. And yes, he is 12 years old, believe me no narrow face and no Mohican!! So it is pretty hard to determine age, is it not? I don't think any one with enough experience thought he was <6? I could be wrong...
d. And he had a name which will be thrown in your face. Even PHs apply names to particular lions they "know" eg scarface, broken foot, blondie, etc, etc. Names are fun

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:

BUzz, below comments are simply for discussion purposes and I do not wish it to be argumentative. Thx
Hi Mike

WONDERFUL post!!! Pause for thought for the self proclaimed Lion Experts!I have just finished a lion hunt in Dande and shot a wonderful Lion. I was asked some of the following questions

Q- Confirm we want to shoot a single male so we know that he is not part of a pride

A- Males have big terroteries and often leave the pride to do their patrols- so no we will never know for sure. Buzz I am speaking in general terms and in no way referring to you or any one else in particular! This is 100% correct, though there are exceptions eg on lions that are known by the PH/outfitter because they have been "followed" (Not in the literal sense) over a period of time. However, during the course of your hunt and setting up and checking your baits, etc, chances are you will have come across its tracks or seen other lion tracks within the general area of your baits. You may have heard roaring or even observed other lions in the vicinity. You have years of experience in your areas and therefore have a good feel for lion distribution and or prides in your area of operation. All this info can help you make a decision, which I realize will rarely be 100% certain. However, this is about doing one's best to eliminate doubt and find the best possible lion to hunt from a conservation and sustainability point of view, is it not? It's about a hunter's integrity. It is very, very rare to come across a lion that has never been seen before or heard off by the trackers, staff, game scout, ph or operator, if an area has been consistently operated on for 5 seasons or more! And at the end of the day, if there is any doubt about a lion, why not let it walk?

Q-Can you age a lion within a year in the field.
A- No- far from it ( despite been through the best PH system been Zim, and having hunted only dangerous game areas and numerous lions for nearly 20 years. What I can tell you is that often over bait in a safari area it will be shot in very low light so forget about stupid ideas at looking at the colour of its nose etc- I will be able to tell you though that it is a good mature lion and for the Valley worth taking! I think that rather than an outright "no" as an answer, a "sometimes" is more realistic. What does a mature lion look like? What does a “worth taking” lion look like? Is ? <5 male lion, part of a pride with cubs “worth taking”? What about a >6 yo male part of a pride with cubs? And what about a 4 yo one? If we agree that the answer is no on at least these 3 examples, then should we not, as ethical, responsible hunters, be determined to do our best to eliminate what doubt we can before pulling the trigger? Of course I realize this is all theoretical and in practice it boils down to one’s integrity. Perhaps that is why stringent laws are necessary? Honestly, if the light is too poor to be able to make a good judgment on the age of a lion even without seeing the color of its nose, then perhaps one should hold out from pulling the trigger until a better opportunity is available. Maybe try to sit again in the morning. That is the responsibility we should all share whether we are hunting a lion or a dik dik. The fear/disappointment/pressure of returning empty handed from any hunt should not be the reason for shooting the wrong animal. That’s just my opinion.

Q-Does size of the mane determin its age?
A-To a certain degree however GENETICS and AREA play a far bigger role in determining mane size . Agree. The presence of "new mane growth" can help distinguish whether the lack of mane is "genetic" or "age" related. It's not infallible of course!

I think that for the self proclaimed lion experts not even living on the African continent that this is their greatest error in this department- they think MANE=AGE. You cannot compare a Wankie lion to a Valley lion for mane size. I don’t know about Wankie and the Valley but a similar argument is often used for the Selous. I have given enough evidence to dispel this myth right here on AR! I am the first to state that there ARE exceptions to the rule in the Selous and elsewhere - even in the Serengeti! I am not saying that your example of Wankie and the Valley is therefore wrong. The bottom line is that no person who has adequately educated themselves on the importance of shooting only aged lions should question any lion shot with a poor mane provided it has other obvious signs of being aged.

As it was on our hunt we shot our lion at 5.55 am in such low light that our camerman did not even film. Not much good trying looking at his nose colour/scars etc etc . We had seen him the previuos evening and on trail cam pics and he had a distict bent from right track which was a lion we had tracked on Rob Jollys hunt and had nick named him Pangolin man as on that tracking session he had killed a pangolin. And therefore you had the opportunity to do your due diligence as a responsible hunter. I say this wihtout knowing what lion you are referring to.

As a result of the absured and on going back biting and belittling of lion hunters despite having a wonderful story around his lion and an incredible hunt over all (3 ele phants buff lion)my client says he will never put a hunt post on AR compliments of the "lion expetrs" such a lose to readers of AR!

Mike well done. Cheers Buzz

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I got high res photos to people who have facial recognition software adapted to lion.

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Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I got high res photos to people who have facial recognition software adapted to lion.

Buzz, please put a note in my file. If we ever hunt a male lion together, please make arrangements to have these capabilities available in the blind with us so that we can make an informed and appropriate decision that will not be subject to being second guessed. Better yet, if we could have a panel of experts available by satellite phone who can evaluate the photos real time and give us a thumbs up or thumbs down, that would be ideal. Probably need some nightvision equipment too to ensure good low light photography capability. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:

But let me assure you that as far as hunting is concerned theory and practice are very far removed. I can't speak from a veterinary perspective though...When hunting, it is extremely likely one will experience a situation unlike any he has ever read/heard about, isn't that so?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:



And...my daddy taught me that if I ever slowed down...I might have to dig the toe of his boot out from the cheeks of my ass. Something a lot of the younger generation were never taught!

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:



And...my daddy taught me that if I ever slowed down...I might have to dig the toe of his boot out from the cheeks of my ass. Something a lot of the younger generation were never taught!

Right about that, though I don't think it was from lack of trying to 'teach' that the 'lessons' weren't learned... Only so many generations of youngsters can take an ass kicking, you see...You must have heard the story about what happens when the young lion is no longer young and the pride male is definitely old... I don't know if I qualify as the younger generation anymore, but speaking for myself if anyone's daddy tries to imbed his toe in my crack I will at least make an effort to imbed his teeth in my knuckles.

This post is meant to be in good humor.....

quote:

My point is that several people thought the lion killed was different from the Bumi lion and aged it around six years old after viewing pictures.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
If I am tracking a lion/ sitting in a blind and there is what we all call a shooter but I turn around and say “sorry you cant shoot as I am not 100% sure exactly where he is from and who his family is!” not only will I have a highly unhappy client who will never return and will bad mouth me but I probably would have a law suit against me.

quote:

BTW I still struggle to believe they are the same lion, not that it matters anyway as it was a good legal ethical hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
BwanaMitch
Discussions rather then arguments are a benefit to all.

Regarding comments about getting to know your lions- our area shares boundaries with both Chewores, Mozambique and Dande south. These combined areas are huge. While we do have a few regulars we do have numerous males that I consider Nomads as they come in from who knows where and then disappear again.

An example on Robs hunt we had I think at least ( Rob can correct me)about 12 different male lions that we had identified on that hunt . On this hunt we had 6- where have the other 6 gone? On Robs hunt we had 3 males together which we nick named the "three Musketeers" we tracked them a few times and eventually they crossed into Moz never to be seen again. We were also after a big lion we nick named "Stompie" he was shot in Chewore South later in the year a considerable distance from where we had him on bait. Are you saying that the 6 lions seen on the 2nd hunt were also seen on Rob’s hunt? If so, that is a good average wouldn’t you agree?
The lion we shot "Pangolin man" was shot by GPS 30kms in a straight line from where we tracked him with Rob! Norman Monks who is considered top dog in lion research and had done his thesis on lion had a collared lion in Mana that swam the Zambezi river and ended up in the Kafue Nat Park which is a massive distance over what would not be considered only game areas. The point I am making is these cats move massive distances so I have to disagree with you with the fact that it is “very rare “ too come across a lion that is unknown in the area. Valid point…. Perhaps I should have used the words “not frequent”. At least that is my experience.

Bear in mind that the Dande Safari area only has 2 lions on quota a year, despite the fact that I hunted both this year, often they are hunted by different PHs meaning that you will have 21 days on the ground hunting lions at the tops to make an educated discion on who is shootable and who is not, combine this with the fact that these lions move through several areas- it’s a hard call. Agree it’s a hard call. As to the comment on different PHs, surely it is in an operator’s best interest to work with the same PHs year in and out, who share the same (and respect the) operator’s hunting and conservation philosophy? In so doing you are also ensuring that clients are guided by PHs with a fair knowledge of the hunting area to maximize their chances of success? I can see that allowing any tom, dick or harry Ph to hunt your area can lead to varying degrees of hunting management compliance. Naturally, there are exceptions to every case so I am speaking in broad terms.

If I am tracking a lion/ sitting in a blind and there is what we all call a shooter but I turn around and say “sorry you cant shoot as I am not 100% sure exactly where he is from and who his family is!” not only will I have a highly unhappy client who will never return and will bad mouth me but I probably would have a law suit against me. I disagree with the law suit part so long as you have explained your companies’ policy when it comes to lion hunting prior to accepting the booking. You can even include your policy in your safari contract. Ultimately, the PH has final decision and clients are not to place undue pressure on phs. This should be very clearly stated in your terms and conditions.
With regards to the light not been good enough to check out his nose colour/scars etc and your suggestion to come back in the morning- I would have the same pissed off client as above as the light was plenty good enough looking through Binos/scope to see that he was a big bodied lion with a very good mane for the valley- the risk of saying “ lets sit again in the morning and try have a better look at him” and then fail to shoot a lion when your client is paying 2k plus a day- I think we have to be realistic about that! These are wrong reasons IMHO, to allow a client to take a sub-standard lion knowing what we know today about lion hunting and conservation. If you are NOT sufficiently sure that the lion you are about to shoot is, first of all, an aged lion, then you should not allow the client to shoot. The fear of a pissed off client is undue pressure on many PHs. The client has not paid for the right to do what they want but for the opportunity to hunt on your concessions by following your companies’ policies and regulations.

No decent client who calls himself a hunter will ever be cross with coming back empty handed if he and the PH have hunted hard and did not connect, however my bet is that 99% of hunters would be seriously bleak if they were denied an opportunity on their dream line who is broad side in the sand river showing off a nice mane and big body only to be told by the PH “its not light enough for me to see his scars/ nose/ whiskers etc etc!!! “I cannot accurately determine that the lion is a suitable lion under these conditions”. Hopefully, you have had a chance to discuss your lion hunting policy and what lion you will allow to be taken at the time of negotiations. Full disclosure of expectations is key, at the cost of losing the booking.

While every PH and client wants to and tries to shoot an old lion the reality of the situation is that there is a quota that has been set by those more knowledgeable then ourselves that is deemed sustainable. Maybe true in Zim but certainly NOT true in other places in Africa to include TZ. Besides, so much more has been learned about the correct lion trophy in recent times that Governmental institutions dealing with quota setting are not even aware or unwilling to adapt simply because Gov dpt in Africa are naturally resistant to any change. And even if they wanted to adapt, the process of doing so is often laborious and never ending. So if we end up shooting a younger lion rather then an older lion we have left a dominant lion which is probably better all round Not so as these younger lion are your “replacement stock” needed to naturally replace older males. Over time, a continuous removal of this age group will cause a population decline to a point of no return. That is what recent research has concluded or worse case scenario we are left with the same number of lion after the shot goes off. To reiterate every PH I know in Zim anyway would do his utmost to shoot as good and as old a lion as he can! That I have NO DOUBT and highly respect. The issue is when an old/aged lion is not found so a ph moves to plan B which is “shooting the next best lion” found, regardless if he is 4 or under to avoid ending up with a disappointed client who might not book again. The latter is a change in client mentality which needs to occur in parallel to lion hunting reform. At least this is my opinion.

BwanaMitch if you are in the 1% of clients please tell me where to market as I have had 20 odd years of clients in the 99% bracket! It is not my intention to tell you how to run your business. You have obviously been very successful. I find it encouraging that such a discussion can take place and thank you for sharing your views and experience. All I can say is that there are operators and Phs who do things differently and are far more stringent with the kind of lion allowed to be shot with resulting lower success rates but they are equally successful with their business module. Once again apologies to anyone who seriously disagrees with my way of thinking as it would never be my intention to annoy anyone however I do feel that the above is the ‘reality of the situation” when in the bush and I can honestly say that the vast majority of Zim PH with much experience would agree with it. Cheers for now Buzz

quote:

Hi Mike

WONDERFUL post!!! Pause for thought for the self proclaimed Lion Experts!I have just finished a lion hunt in Dande and shot a wonderful Lion. I was asked some of the following questions

Q- Confirm we want to shoot a single male so we know that he is not part of a pride

A- Males have big terroteries and often leave the pride to do their patrols- so no we will never know for sure.

Q-Can you age a lion within a year in the field.
A- No- far from it ( despite been through the best PH system been Zim, and having hunted only dangerous game areas and numerous lions for nearly 20 years. What I can tell you is that often over bait in a safari area it will be shot in very low light so forget about stupid ideas at looking at the colour of its nose etc- I will be able to tell you though that it is a good mature lion and for the Valley worth taking!

Q-Does size of the mane determin its age?
A-To a certain degree however GENETICS and AREA play a far bigger role in determining mane size .

I think that for the self proclaimed lion experts not even living on the African continent that this is their greatest error in this department- they think MANE=AGE. You cannot compare a Wankie lion to a Valley lion for mane size.

As it was on our hunt we shot our lion at 5.55 am in such low light that our camerman did not even film. Not much good trying looking at his nose colour/scars etc etc . We had seen him the previuos evening and on trail cam pics and he had a distict bent from right track which was a lion we had tracked on Rob Jollys hunt and had nick named him Pangolin man as on that tracking session he had killed a pangolin.


As a result of the absured and on going back biting and belittling of lion hunters despite having a wonderful story around his lion and an incredible hunt over all (3 ele phants buff lion)my client says he will never put a hunt post on AR compliments of the "lion expetrs" such a lose to readers of AR!

Mike well done. Cheers Buzz

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:

While every PH and client wants to and tries to shoot an old lion the reality of the situation is that there is a quota that has been set by those more knowledgeable then ourselves that is deemed sustainable. So if we end up shooting a younger lion rather then an older lion we have left a dominant lion which is probably better all round or worse case scenario we are left with the same number of lion after the shot goes off. To reiterate every PH I know in Zim anyway would do his utmost to shoot as good and as old a lion as he can!

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

Parks are broke. They need the loot and if you are going to pay them to kill something, fine, they will give you a permit to do so. It may not be legal, but the parks officers running the park will honour it. However, the export authorities are not going to issue an export permit unless. A) all the money's have been baned in Zimbabwe (and the banking authorities are controlled by those opposed to the illegal hunting) b) they are sure they are not committing an international fraud.

so, QED, export papers for hunts of negotiable legallity are few and far between especially as parks don't have full control over that aspect.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
There is only one way to properly age a lion. It is ball size. Bottom line is the ethical PH and hunter must check a lion for ball size, weight and general conformation. If they are proper then you are free to return to your blind and take your shot. If not then you must do the ethical thing and leave the lion alone to continue growing a proper pair. Note that ball size is also dependend on mane color. With the darker maned lions being somewhat luckier in this regard. Finally the trickiest bit is retreating after the hand check as some lions have adopted an unwilling PH or two into there pride (typically SA PH's). A bit awkward to explain at the next SCI convention.

quote:

Originally posted by zimguide:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
we have all heard the advice about don't shoot until the PH gives the OK. WELL, IF HE SAYS SHOOT, HE BETTER PLUG HIS EARS. the buffalo in the background makes me think that this guy is in a game park

Spot on about the game park. This lion is known as Goose by the lion research team in Hwange and by all the guides alike. He is 12 years old and still holding his area. Interestingly he is one of the few lions in Hwange that has a territory that at no place goes into the hunting area as he is surrounded on all sides by other territories. He is as feisty now as he ever was and he has always been feisty..