As you point out it is really a decision that each person must make for themselves and their families based on their priorities and their position in life. Someone on AR has a tag line, you can borrow money, but you cannot borrow time. There is a lot of truth in that statement. I am sure we have all known folks that had a dream, e.g., to learn to fly, the go to Africa, to live on a sailboat, whatever. A lot of these folks talk about realizing their dream, e.g., when the kids get out of school, when I retire, when the house is paid for, whatever. Unfortunately, then something intervenes like a death or medical condition and the dream is never realized. We all have to be responsible that is true. However, for some putting off pursuit of their dream until tomorrow means the opportunity will never exist.

quote:

However, for some putting off pursuit of their dream until tomorrow means the opportunity will never exist.

Then I personally will live with reality.
I have a friend that has always lived beyond his means & gone & done things that he really could not afford.
He simply says that his life insurance will cover everything when he's gone.
His family has never gone hungry or naked, but he'll never hold the title to anything he so called owns.
He can live with this, I can't.

Is an African Safari

(1) a pure discretionary activity?

(2) A fulfillment of something more personal - a lifelong dream?

(3) Reckless expenditure ?

Too each their own. Like a close old friend used to say "we live in America who is stopping you (but your checkbook)."

I am clearly in the first camp - pure discretionary activity. If times get tough hunting will get cut in a heart beat. If DG prices continue to rise and a cape buffalo approaches a F-150 - plains game instead. Africa can be traded for Australia or Alaska. The trade offs conitnue.

I can see how for some folks it may be a the fulfillment of a lifetime desire and be more that just a fancy vacation. Curtailing other expenditure - like driving an older car etc to save for a hunt is great.

But to me to go into retirement funds, mortgage or second mortgage a house, not pay/save for kids education or borrow money is imprudent at best. This is after all a discretionary activity - what if we replace hunting with going to Vegas or Monaco and being a high roller or wanting to buy a fancy ocean going sailboat on a middle class income.

But again this is America and it's your money - as long as you pay Uncle Sam you can do what you want and if your lenders give you money to go hunt, they are all grown boys and can take the risk of non payment if the person has any of life's unfortunate outcomes that so desire an earlier hunting trip.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:
... but he'll never hold the title to anything he so called owns.

On the other hand, and to quote one of my favorite African films..."We're not owners here...we're just passing through". If nothing of mine is owned outright by me but only by my kids with a life insurance settlement, and if it means hunting the world with my wife and kids in the meantime...then so be it. I will trade "stuff" for experiences any day of the week.

Gentlemen,
Interesting comments here from all, and, while what I previously posted is absolutely the truth, it is certainly not all of the story. Much of what was suggested by others, i.e., driving older cars, living in a modest house, saving everything possible, stretching out the taxidermy work over several years, etc. was done. My daughters are long ago grown, the oldest is well married, and the youngest earns twice as much yearly as I ever did. Waiting 16 bachelor years in order to find a woman who said, "Would you take me to Africa?", was also a great boon. The 1992 Zambian safari was paid for long ago, and I still have the buff taken there, although the place of honor on the wall he occupied has now been happily reassigned to the better buff my wife shot in Zim two years ago. I could make one phone call to my investment people, and, without making a large dent in the IRA, obtain the funds necessary to erase the Zim cost. I find it much more prudent since we retired to use the low long-term mortgage interest rates to cover those costs, while keeping our money available to us should we need it. Considering the percentage that safari costs are increasing every year, saving the money to go at a later date might actually be more expensive than using borrowed money now, not to mention the uncertainty of being able to go hunting in Africa at all.
Best regards to all,
Tim Ferrall

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Please accept this as what it is, an opinion. There are outfitters in Tanzania, calling booking agents telling them, they have ZERO clients booked for the remainder of the season.

My point, if you can be ready, go on short notice, your 25k might buy you 21 days in TZ.

Steve

Steve..if that is true it is terrible news for the safari industry.

It is absolutely true. The company in question has some PRIME areas.

Yes, one might get the daily rates CHEAP. However, there are still the trophy fees, the various government fees and the offensively expensive air charters. I know of one route where the charter fee is $16,000!

The charter might not be an issue. In my last trip to TZ, we took a regional airline that landed on strips in the bush. We had a long flight yet paid less than $500. It was a bigger, faster,more comfortable plane.

Would one of our outfitters or PHs please post what the cost is for 21 hunt, without trophy fees?

Just want to get an idea what the costs that are NOT negotiable, like hunting licenses and payments to the government.

One of my friends friend from decades ago would go on sheeps hunts all over, borrowing money where he could. He told my friend, he wouldn't hold his breath to live to be too old so he"ll hunt till he drops or runs out of money.
So he died in his mid fifties and Bob told me his friend's kids where pissed off because house was mortgaged to the hilt so bank took it and no money left either.
We still laugh about it here and there, because he beat the odds...I always tell my kids, I'm trying not to leave anything to them so make your own life.
Don't get me wrong, I'm putting them thru college so they don't have a debt for starting in life

The sad part is we have so many different attitudes towards money and what we want to do with it.

I know people who are loaded, but travel economy class, never go on holiday, keep a car for 10 years, and generally live on a shoe strings.

Others do the exact opposite, they go on holiday at every opportunity, travel first class, and generally enjoy every day of their lives.

Others might be in between.

At the end of day, one does what he thinks is best.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Would one of our outfitters or PHs please post what the cost is for 21 hunt, without trophy fees?

Just want to get an idea what the costs that are NOT negotiable, like hunting licenses and payments to the government.

I would like to see this, too. If these companies have openings why don't we see these offers posted here?

Also, the companies themselves should be keen on posting their openings here so they would not have to pay an agents commission on an already discounted hunt.

Unless they are owned by individuals with deep, deep pockets, if openings exist from now until the end of season its a big problem for them. If they operate in TZ then they will be required to pay 60% of their quota for the season.

Hi All,here are some facts that may answer some questions on Zimbabwe.

Fuel costs have risen from 33 cents per litter 10 years ago to $1.38 per litter today

Parks and wildlife trophy fees and administration fees have been hiked up 300%.

Quotas have been cut hence higher operating costs.

The average 10 day buffalo hunt in the zambezi valley 10 years ago was about US$9,500.00

Today a buffalo hunt is about US$16,000.00

This does not include air charters,transfers,dip and pak and commercial flights.

Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife are broke.The proud operators and those trying to make a difference are having to fund anti poaching in their areas.

Using the figures given by Guy, my spreadsheet maths tells me that the cost of fuel has risen by 15.38% every year, while the buffalo trophy fee only increased by 5.35% year on year!

This, simplistically, by regarding fuel as "expenses" and trophy fee as "income", tells us that the "profits" made by hunting outfitters have decreased over the 10 years! Drastically!

quote:

Originally posted by Dahav:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Would one of our outfitters or PHs please post what the cost is for 21 hunt, without trophy fees?

Just want to get an idea what the costs that are NOT negotiable, like hunting licenses and payments to the government.

I would like to see this, too. If these companies have openings why don't we see these offers posted here?

Also, the companies themselves should be keen on posting their openings here so they would not have to pay an agents commission on an already discounted hunt.

Unless they are owned by individuals with deep, deep pockets, if openings exist from now until the end of season its a big problem for them. If they operate in TZ then they will be required to pay 60% of their quota for the season.

Can't remember the exact cost, but it isn't high, much more significant are block fees. People complain about the high prices, without grasping the difficulty and associated costs of doing business here. Like Steve said, people aren't getting rich off of guiding or outfitting hunts.

I didn't go to law school until later in life. Being a lawyer isn't as it once was. Initials after your name don't mean anything. Prior to law school, I was doing multimillion dollar deals, now I need crack heads for my income. That was the path I chose.

I was lucky enough to get two PG safaris under my belt. I've shot a bunch of birds in South America, but I'll make a way to pay for my first buffalo. Luckily, (depending on how you look at it) I only have myself and a dog to support.

I like vicariously through you gentlemen. I'll be there one day. I'm 37. When did you fellas get into DG hunting?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


I know people who are loaded, but travel economy class, never go on holiday, keep a car for 10 years, and generally live on a shoe strings.

This actually describes the most wealthy "self made" people I know. That's how they got wealthy in the first place and I suppose old habits are hard to break. That, of course, doesn't mean they can't spend money with the best of them if the occasion or good taste demands it...they just don't act like spendthrifts on a day to day basis. While there are exceptions, I suspect among self-made people in the US, the choice is usually to "look rich" or "be rich". At the very least, most people who "are rich" probably make a conscious choice to not look as wealthy as they in fact are. They prefer to stay that way!

This whole discussion also reminds of what I think was a Bill Gates quote. When questioned about giving away the vast majority of his wealth he said, "I want to leave my children enough to do ANYTHING, but not enough to do NOTHING". I have always liked that to the point where my wife and I have decided that at the very least our newborn son will NEVER know what we have or, more importantly, what he has coming to him someday. He will find it all out on about his 35th birthday after he has made his way in this world (with some parental help in the form of uni tuition and other such things).

One thing the SGR desperately needs and has needed for decades is an airline that offers scheduled flights around the various airstrips like they have in Masailand so that these (now) ridiculously priced charter flights can be avoided.

Paying a seat price in the hundreds of dollars instead of thousands of dollars for the charters would make an immense difference to the marketability of the areas.

quote:

If they operate in TZ then they will be required to pay 60% of their quota for the season.

Unless something changed overnight (quite common in places like this) the quota allocation has to be guaranteed at 40%.

Outfitters with a good annual client turnout average 65/70% - the exceptional outfitter may strike 80/85% on quota returns.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

If they operate in TZ then they will be required to pay 60% of their quota for the season.

Unless something changed overnight (quite common in places like this) the quota allocation has to be guaranteed at 40%.



Outfitters with a good annual client turnout average 65/70% - the exceptional outfitter may strike 80/85% on quota returns.

Yes sir, you are correct, its 40% minimum that must be paid= memory lapse on my part. If a hunting company is only booked for half a season, then they might struggle to achieve even the 40% utilization.

I was just thinking about this.

I personally know several PHs who run safaris, and none of them can lay any claim to being rich.

Many of these PH's have wealthy backers.

I got this today from one of the TZ companies. Let me emphasize that these are prime areas.

Thanks a lot Larry.
Please come in Sept 2014.
Special for your lion,leopard,buffalo,roan,sable,elephant and all plains game in Rungwa for 16 days.
Daily rate $21,000
Government fees license $4900.
Lion trophy fees after killing $17,000.
For your friends Buffalo and all plains game except cats.
Daily rate $15,000.
Government fees license $4900.
Please look at this and let me know your thoughts.I will take your thoughts and advices to win this hunt.
For next year I will have no room as I am almost fully booked and all lions are booked next year.This year I have good opening.Come later this August or beginning Sept as Oct is booked.
Let me hear from you.
Regards

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I got this today from one of the TZ companies. Let me emphasize that these are prime areas.

Thanks a lot Larry.
Please come in Sept 2014.
Special for your lion,leopard,buffalo,roan,sable,elephant and all plains game in Rungwa for 16 days.
Daily rate $21,000
Government fees license $4900.
Lion trophy fees after killing $17,000.
For your friends Buffalo and all plains game except cats.
Daily rate $15,000.
Government fees license $4900.
Please look at this and let me know your thoughts.I will take your thoughts and advices to win this hunt.
For next year I will have no room as I am almost fully booked and all lions are booked next year.This year I have good opening.Come later this August or beginning Sept as Oct is booked.
Let me hear from you.
Regards

Larry - Damn this is cheaper than prime areas in Zim like Save or Bubye.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I got this today from one of the TZ companies. Let me emphasize that these are prime areas.

Thanks a lot Larry.
Please come in Sept 2014.
Special for your lion,leopard,buffalo,roan,sable,elephant and all plains game in Rungwa for 16 days.
Daily rate $21,000
Government fees license $4900.
Lion trophy fees after killing $17,000.
For your friends Buffalo and all plains game except cats.
Daily rate $15,000.
Government fees license $4900.
Please look at this and let me know your thoughts.I will take your thoughts and advices to win this hunt.
For next year I will have no room as I am almost fully booked and all lions are booked next year.This year I have good opening.Come later this August or beginning Sept as Oct is booked.
Let me hear from you.
Regards

Larry - Damn this is cheaper than prime areas in Zim like Save or Bubye.

Mike

Want to go Mike?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I got this today from one of the TZ companies. Let me emphasize that these are prime areas.

Thanks a lot Larry.
Please come in Sept 2014.
Special for your lion,leopard,buffalo,roan,sable,elephant and all plains game in Rungwa for 16 days.
Daily rate $21,000
Government fees license $4900.
Lion trophy fees after killing $17,000.
For your friends Buffalo and all plains game except cats.
Daily rate $15,000.
Government fees license $4900.
Please look at this and let me know your thoughts.I will take your thoughts and advices to win this hunt.
For next year I will have no room as I am almost fully booked and all lions are booked next year.This year I have good opening.Come later this August or beginning Sept as Oct is booked.
Let me hear from you.
Regards

Larry - Damn this is cheaper than prime areas in Zim like Save or Bubye.

Mike

Want to go Mike?

Maybe but I am stuck with Biebs in Alaska in mid sept and I have a waitering gig according to Biebs in Texas in early sept.

I am sheep hunting in September. If I go , it will be October.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I am sheep hunting in September. If I go , it will be October.

Def interested - will shoot you a text

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:

quote:

I put a 2nd mortgage on my house to finance my DG safari in Zambia 22 years ago. Our 2012 DG safari in Zim cost my wife and I more than we net in a year. We may die owing money on that trip, but we won't die wishing we had gone!

To each his own, but I would never borrow money for a safari, if I don't have the cash on hand I don't go.
As far as "we may die owing" I would be thinking what if I died & left my widow to pay on MY debt.
I definitely have enough life insurance to cover such a debt, but I would not want it to go for something other than her needs for the rest of her life.
I only borrow money for the things I absolutely need & do not have the cash on hand to pay with.
There may be things in life that I never experience, but leaving my family to cover my debts ain't gonna happen.
I am not trying to criticize or tell anyone else what to do, this is just the way I feel about it.

I kept my debt very low and had plenty of cash when the GFC hit; I bought a lot of investment property in AZ since then. The income stream from that pays for all the hunting I care to do and still continue to buy houses every year.

Borrowing money is fine if you are buying an asset, but hunting is not an asset. I have never understood this "you can borrow money but not time" stuff. Figure out a way to make more money is a better philosophy. If you can only make one lion hunt in your life, take a chance and start a business instead of booking that hunt. If you are successful you can go as much as you want. If not, you don't. And don't forget, getting 25 days off to do a 21 day when you work for someone is difficult even if you do make a lot. Better to control the situation. Just the added stress of wondering if "the man" will cancel your vacation should be enough motivation to launch something on your own.

The most I ever spent hunting on trip was my first safari; it cost me about 16% of my income when I worked for a Fortune 500 company; my last hunt was less than 1% of our income. I certainly don't eat hamburger helper for four years in order to go hunting for two or three weeks but that first safari was well worth the money.

Spending every dime you make and then complaining how expensive hunting has become just isn't my cup of tea. Then again, my neighbors wonder why I drive a Toyota Corolla (ans: I have no need to impress others and find cars utterly boring). But as you say Bwana, to each his own...

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:
To each his own, but I would never borrow money for a safari, if I don't have the cash on hand I don't go.
As far as "we may die owing" I would be thinking what if I died & left my widow to pay on MY debt.
I definitely have enough life insurance to cover such a debt, but I would not want it to go for something other than her needs for the rest of her life.
I only borrow money for the things I absolutely need & do not have the cash on hand to pay with.
There may be things in life that I never experience, but leaving my family to cover my debts ain't gonna happen.
I am not trying to criticize or tell anyone else what to do, this is just the way I feel about it.

...........................................................Absolutely! Everything I own is paid for, but I'm older than my wife, and If anything happens to me she will be fine as long as I don't make her indebted to anyone!

Would I love to get back in the bush? Hell yes, but That is just one of life's little bumps in the road!
..................................................................