Gents:
When discussing hunting the "Big Five" is it acceptable to substitute hippo for rhino?
Just curious as so few will ever hunt rhino.
Cheers, all.
Cal

Cal,

This very same suggestion was brought up in the past and the general consensus was in agreement, in fact someone even proposed chucking Croc into the fray as well.

As true big 5 hunting evaporates seems like hippo is replacing elephant/rhino and croc replacing lion.

I have had more shit with Hippo than all the other four put together.

In my opinion, no. Hippo is not one of the big five and given that it is so easy to pot one from the riverbank, it really shouldn't be.

However, your hunting goals and desires are your own.

I will agree that dry land hunting them and getting close is exciting, and dangerous, but really the old definitions have meaning, and from a traditionalists position it is not. Having now shot both, Rhino did give me more of a sense of testing myself than even my dry land hippo, but my hunt was fortunate that it was more a hunt than a Rhino execution.

Croc is absolutely not, again IMO. There is no real risk to a hunter with them, except losing a trophy fee because you didn't anchor it right. While a mankiller, it really has no element of danger in hunting one.

Again, just my opinion, but until such time as no one can hunt rhino legally, I would not suggest that the big five is anything other than Lion, Leopard, Buffalo, Elephant and Rhino. If some are removed, then it becomes the big 3 or whatever. Adding Croc and Hippo substitution just makes it the same as SCI's Dangerous Animals of Africa... which apparently is rather negatively thought of by the powers that be around here.

I have no issue with it, but it is what it is.

The big five is what it is. I don't think we should be substituting. Hippo and croc have their own place. By substituting we are fooling ourselves and/or chasing a Big 5 award . Hippo can be as dangerous , if not more than the big Five when hunted on land , and its great sport to do so , but its not one of the Big Five.
In the end , to each his own .

No, but you can include the hippo in the Dangerous 7. As Jan says, the Big Five is what it is.

Anymore, it is just big 4 as rhino hunting is not rhino hunting in traditional sense anymore
Hippo and croc?
It is just that, hippo and croc hunting
This Big 7 is just feeble effort to make something out of regular hunt
Marketing maybe?

Yes you can if the Hippo is transgender and claims to have had his "horn" removed!

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Anymore, it is just big 4 as rhino hunting is not rhino hunting in traditional sense anymore
Hippo and croc?
It is just that, hippo and croc hunting
This Big 7 is just feeble effort to make something out of regular hunt
Marketing maybe?

Hi Milan.

I wouldn't go as far as to claim Rhino darting to not be hunting. You must be extraordinary close, nothing between you and the Rhino and you have to hit him in the proper place.

Had I been using a DR, my Rhino hunt would have been dull and non-eventful. As it was, it was very exciting. I would do it again.

My guess, when the notion of the Big Five was originated and the rhino was included, that was with the black rhino in mind. I think having white rhino, whether hunted or darted, considered one of the Big Five is a bit of a stretch. In my view hippo is probably more dangerous than white rhino. I have no desire to hunt or dart a white rhino . . . darting a black rhino would be interesting.

Technically traditional big 5 hunting hanging on by a thread with 3 black rhino permits in Namibia and maybe a couple in SA.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
Anymore, it is just big 4 as rhino hunting is not rhino hunting in traditional sense anymore
Hippo and croc?
It is just that, hippo and croc hunting
This Big 7 is just feeble effort to make something out of regular hunt
Marketing maybe?

Hi Milan.

I wouldn't go as far as to claim Rhino darting to not be hunting. You must be extraordinary close, nothing between you and the Rhino and you have to hit him in the proper place.

Had I been using a DR, my Rhino hunt would have been dull and non-eventful. As it was, it was very exciting. I would do it again.

Agree Steve

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
My guess, when the notion of the Big Five was originated and the rhino was included, that was with the black rhino in mind. I think having white rhino, whether hunted or darted, considered one of the Big Five is a bit of a stretch. In my view hippo is probably more dangerous than white rhino. I have no desire to hunt or dart a white rhino . . . darting a black rhino would be interesting.

Do sleeping lionesses count as the "Lion" part of the Big 5?

Oops, we stumbled on to a sensitive issue apparently. My apologies, I am sure your white rhino . . . hunt . . . was unforgettable.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Oops, we stumbled on to a sensitive issue apparently. My apologies, I am sure your white rhino . . . hunt . . . was unforgettable.

Hmmm, have you done one?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
My apologies, I am sure your white rhino . . . hunt . . . was unforgettable.

Just another fine example of hunters sticking together. I believe it is a legal "hunt" (as you call it) to dart a Rhino just as it was at one time legal to shoot sleeping Lionesses' in Zim.

Steve, did you put your Rhino darting on youtube?

Cheers
Jim

Perhaps we shall call the AR court to order and do a poll thread."Which offers more potential excitement, shooting a sleeping lioness or darting a White Rhino?"

What say you?

"Let's not get sidetracked by the square-lipped rhino, for although he has made an astonishing comeback as a species, he's not really a very menacing or challenging game animal. In fact, the records of Zululand, the territory of his southern range where he has traditionally been in greatest evidence, show that only four people have been clumsy enough to have gotten fatally in his way. He's the second largest of the land animals on earth but about as dangerous under unprovoked circumstances as a defanged Yorkshire terrier."

John H. Batton
Hunting the African Rhino


My point was simply that a white rhino is the not the rhino typically regarded as being worthy of inclusion in the Big Five. Hardly a remarkable statement since hunters for decades have made similar observations. If you feel differently, God bless you.

The Big Five were a DG category for a reason to British explorers and white hunters. These were going to try and kill you, especially when injured. Traditionally the rhino were black but having been charged by a cavlary of 6 white rhino abreast it seems like semantics. But the black with calf that charged us once came from very close without warning, since they are typically in thick bush. Fortunately
With the whites we got into some thorn trees
in time...rather thorns than horns!

How about the Lesser Dangerous Five to add up to the Terrible Ten. Here s my vote for 3 from the water ... Hippo, croc, and Great White Shark
Plus hyena ( they kill more in Zim than the other Big 5 annually and a boy at Crocodile Bridge in Kruger just his face badly mauled but survived) and snakes, especially mambas. Add in insects you have the Terrible Twelve with malaria and sleeping sickness.

A pissed off hippo is perhaps even more formidable than a rhino. Much as I hate to admit it, I fear the Big 5 will have to be reevaluated from time to time just like the so-called 7 wonders of the world.

Just did a PAC Hippo Bull hunt by myself at night on land & it was right up there with Ele
Far more scary then shooting a poor old White Rino

Since we are playing definition games for those who want to change things, what would you call the big 5 if elephant, lion, leopard, rhino and croc are all banned...which is possible given the current state of the world?

My point being that definitions are what they are.

While black rhino was the most common rhino hunted in days of yore, and truly is more dangerous... The old timers didn't say "black rhino" they said rhino... And in those days people were much more erudite and tended to say exactly what they meant in writing.

I will say that of the 3 hippo I hunted, only one was a pulse raising experience. The rhino had me concerned for a while also. And yes, it was a white rhino. I have also been chased by both black and white rhino in Zimbabwe...the white was our fault as we knew he was there and thought he didn't care. The black just was being a black rhino... I don't care what folks say about honey badger, Rhino really don't give a shit about anything.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Since we are playing definition games for those who want to change things, what would you call the big 5 if elephant, lion, leopard, rhino and croc are all banned...which is possible given the current state of the world?

My point being that definitions are what they are.

While black rhino was the most common rhino hunted in days of yore, and truly is more dangerous... The old timers didn't say "black rhino" they said rhino... And in those days people were much more erudite and tended to say exactly what they meant in writing.

I will say that of the 3 hippo I hunted, only one was a pulse raising experience. The rhino had me concerned for a while also. And yes, it was a white rhino. I have also been chased by both black and white rhino in Zimbabwe...the white was our fault as we knew he was there and thought he didn't care. The black just was being a black rhino... I don't care what folks say about honey badger, Rhino really don't give a shit about anything.

As I usually do, I agree with your post. Since I decided I wanted to hunt the "Big 5" It wasn't Lion, Leopard, Buffalo, Elephant and Hippo. It included Rhino. I didn't make the list up, it is what it is.

Since a Black Rhino wasn't really an option for darting I chose a White Rhino.

Further, I would be willing to bet a large sum of money, that all the members whom are scoffing off Rhino, have not completed the Big 5. No apologies. I'm rather proud of it. I'm a Lion and a Rhino away from a double.

I remember a lot of ink bitching over weather a white rhino counted toward the big five.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
I remember a lot of ink bitching over weather a white rhino counted toward the big five.

Could you point me in the direction of that information?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I have had more shit with Hippo than all the other four put together.

................ I love hunting Hippo in the thick bush at dawn along the river when they return to the water for the day! Can get dicey at times!
However the big five are, in reality, the big four now, because the black Rhino is, for all practical purposes, gone to the happy hunting grounds! When an animal gets to the point where the permits are so rare that they come at close to one million dollars, I say they are no longer a hunt but a BUY!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Perhaps we shall call the AR court to order and do a poll thread."Which offers more potential excitement, shooting a sleeping lioness or darting a White Rhino?"

What say you?

.............Heah comes de Judge!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
I remember a lot of ink bitching over weather a white rhino counted toward the big five.

Could you point me in the direction of that information?

I did a cursory search and found that there are several post about it.

I remember the post from a while back, don't think we have seen anything recently though.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
I remember a lot of ink bitching over weather a white rhino counted toward the big five.

Could you point me in the direction of that information?

I did a cursory search and found that there are several post about it.

I remember the post from a while back, don't think we have seen anything recently though.

I thought you might post a link or something to support the statement.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Perhaps we shall call the AR court to order and do a poll thread."Which offers more potential excitement, shooting a sleeping lioness or darting a White Rhino?"

What say you?

Things are a bit slow entertainment wise what with NFL training camp still weeks away. Might be interesting to see the poll results.

What is the number of people killed by truly wild white rhino in the wild hunting situation?

I am not talking about game ranches where the white rhino are monitored and see people on vehicles every day!

That should answer the question if the white rhino is a member of the Big 5 DANGEROUS game or not.

Yes the White Rhino is a valid and credible trophy but to substitute it for the black rhino in the Big 5 is a great injustice to the black rhino as a truly DANGEROUS animal.

In India the Big 4 would be the Tiger, Elephant, Leopard and the Asiatic water buffalo. Sorry the Asiatic lion, the Asiatic one horned rhino and the Gaur are not truly in that league as DANGEROUS animals.

You might argue that the Sloth bear can be added to the list along with the Himalayan black bear - that makes it the Indian Big 6 - but that is another debate.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
What is the number of people killed by truly wild white rhino in the wild hunting situation?

I am not talking about game ranches where the white rhino are monitored and see people on vehicles every day!

That should answer the question if the white rhino is a member of the Big 5 DANGEROUS game or not.

Yes the White Rhino is a valid and credible trophy but to substitute it for the black rhino in the Big 5 is a great injustice to the black rhino as a truly DANGEROUS animal.

In India the Big 4 would be the Tiger, Elephant, Leopard and the Asiatic water buffalo. Sorry the Asiatic lion, the Asiatic one horned rhino and the Gaur are not truly in that league as DANGEROUS animals.

You might argue that the Sloth bear can be added to the list along with the Himalayan black bear - that makes it the Indian Big 6 - but that is another debate.

"You're killing me smalls."

Naki, as respectfully as I can, I suggest you go get a few Safaris under your belt before you decide what should and shouldn't be part of the Big 5.

What are your thoughts on the tiny ten? are some not "tiny" enough?

Or the spiral horns? maybe the Elands should be removed since they are not true "spirals" but "twisted" in horn.

I personally don't know who designated what comprises the Big 5, but I don't believe it was SCI. Its been around a long time. It might be interesting to find out.

All I can say is, I wanted to complete the Big 5, so I darted a Rhino. It was fun and exciting. I got to complete the Big 5 and the Rhino got to get up and run off into Africa.

As far as danger goes, I've been the closest to an injury inflicted by an animal with a wounded Warthog. Next was a Red Lechwe in the Okavango Delta that I had to drown because I ran out of bullets. The Lion I killed was shot poorly but didn't make it all the way to myself and Alister Norton, but God damn close.

Perspective.

Steve

This is a hypothetical debate and not one based on experience.

It is a fireside couch wank! So just chill.

I may not have hunted seriously in Africa but I have covered a lot of wild country in India and know what it is be charged by elephant cows at less than 10 feet. I've also been charged by a female sloth bear with cub.

Now with all your experience, are you saying that a white rhino is a serious DG in the same or similar class to the other dangerous 5 of the Big5?

BTW - nice Rhino & well done. Very cool!

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying I wanted to complete the Big 5, period. I didn't decide to what to put in there. I simply completed the task. Perhaps you need to take Rowland & Ward to task.

And I believe it's "Wanker"

So far, two have admitted to hunting rhino and say white rhino count (dart or kill); sounds like the experienced ones think so.

I freely admit that a dry land hippo can be dangerous, and is probably of similar technical difficulty as a rhino to kill, however, rhino are in my mind more unpredictable than hippo, if for no other reason than you can find them far from water and they can be so unpredictable. They also are somewhat larger.

A hippo hunt is a grand experience, and if you can, treat yourself to one, if done in dry land, you should not be disappointed in your hunt.

I could see how some of rhino hunts would be a disappointment, especially given the costs.

Nevertheless, as one who has shot both, the rhino is not a hippo, and the rhino is, "even" a white rhino, a potentially more dangerous customer at short range in the bush.

I paid my money and voted my conscience.

While there may be some selection bias, I doubt there are many who have done both that would consider the hippo a replacement for rhino in their own hunting. If you have shot all but rhino, and consider yourself to have taken the big 4, I have no arguement with you.

If you took buffalo, lion, leopard, elephant, and hippo, you did not shoot the big 5, but you have still lived a full hunting life, and done more than 99.99% of sport hunters.

As to whether or not the white rhino is the game animal the black rhino is, all I can say is both are agile, mobile, and if you get too close, hostile. Until one has been in there with both, I cannot see how one could say one is less than the other.

We should encourage legal hunting of both species to provide funds and habitat.

Have no dog in this fight over whether the White or Black is the most aggressive of the two.

I can only comment on my experience (past) to Black Rhino as being highly volatile if you encroach upon its territory and will charge without much prompting.

Those with experience on both species tend to be of the opinion that the White Rhino is not so temperamental as its cousin.

I agree the white is not as aggressive, but then the white rhino is more aggressive than a hippo unless you get between the hippo and water. Get near a white rhino calf and Johnny bar the door, I am told...

Get between any mother and her offspring and you will find grief; all depends on the size and disposition of the mother and retribution will be meted out in proportion.