Well boys.....if you were hunting Botswana in April of next year, and chose to use a scoped rifle. What range would YOU have it sighted 'dead on' at?
I'll be using my .416 Rigby. Yeah well....I cannot afford a double. Spending it all on the hunt!!!! Yeah....I could take the scope off. But I shoot pretty good with the scope ON! Let er' rip.................

I absolutely would not use a scoped rifle. If you are hunting elephant the right way, you will be close. I was in Zim two weeks ago and we tracked lions. We caught the pride and I happened to be carrying a scoped rifle at the time. Big mistake. A lioness charged and it was very difficult to pick her up in the scope even on a low power setting. Not trying to be argumentative but I actually think using a scope at a distance of 30 yards or under could be dangerous.

25 yards, I would think with that gun you would be good wherever you wanted to shoot an ele, but hopefully it will be inside 30 yards...

25 yds will be good. With a 416 Rigby that should cover you for as far as you're going to shoot an Ele. If you're used to using a scope, I say go for it. I have scopes on all of my rifles and I had no trouble picking up a charging elephant in my scope on a Zim hunt a few years back. Dropped him at 12 yds. Also with a 416 Rigby.

For practice pick an object in the distance and with your rifle at waist level quickly bring it to your shoulder. You should be able to see your intended target somewhere near the center of the scope without moving your head. After practicing this it should become automatic.

Bcoyler,

I hunted tuskless in Zim, dande North, in 2005 with a PH who got me alot closer than I expected. I had a 450 Dakota I also shot well, and used for PG. It had a rugged 3 X Luepold. Big mistake. At 9 paces you loose your situational awareness.

Todays 1.5 x 5 or 1 x 4 variables might stand up to recoil but dont have enough field of view for a close range elephant shot.

Look at a three foot target at ten paces with your scope and see if you might be better off with metallic sights for elephant and then put your scope on for PG.

The only scope I would use is a 1.1 x 6 Swarovski which has 130 foot FOV at 100 yds. About double most low powered zooms.

Andy

As Tim said, 25 - 30 yards, somewhere in there will work. I've shot em from 12 yards to 47 yards, and almost shot one at 4 yards, last April in Zim. Scope worked just fine on all of them. Remember, the "right way" to hunt elephant is "your way", since you're the one paying for the hunt.

An interesting video to watch is "Bodd on Ele". I counted one time the number of elephants shot at and "Dropped/Brained" with open sighted gun vs scoped rifle. I don't remember the exact numbers anymore, but it was easily a 3 to 1 ratio, in favor of guys with scoped rifles dropping the elephant on the first shot. Like I say, I don't remember the exact numbers anymore, but it was overwhelming to see how much better the guys with scoped rifles shot, versus guys with open sights!

Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Remember, the "right way" to hunt elephant is "your way", since you're the one paying for the hunt.

Does this same rule apply to hunting lions? Just saying.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Remember, the "right way" to hunt elephant is "your way", since you're the one paying for the hunt.

Does this same rule apply to hunting lions? Just saying.

I don't know Mike, have numerous animal rights groups placed petitions on the desk of the U.S. Interior Secretary and the USFWS, asking to have the elephant immediately uplisted to an Endangered Species?

Have the leading elephant scientists in the world, who do favor elephant hunting, suggested that too many young/immature elephant bulls have and are being killed, thus threatening the longevity of the elephant across all of Africa? Especially in Bots, where they are so grossly over-populated, its pathetic?

Are these scientists suggesting that unless they see some serious changes in the elephant hunting practices across Africa, they are gonna recommend the ESA listing, to both the USFWS and Ken Salazar?

Do you need more answers to your question, or can you figure it out from here? Just sayin!

I went back and forth about scope versus non-scop. I settled on a scope (Leupold 1.5-5) with quick release mounts. I shot two bulls with that on my RSM 416 Rigby and was quite well pleased.

I was sighted in at dead on at 100 yards. The first shot on both bulls was about 24-26 yards and I was right on target. The closet shot was a frontal follow up at twelve yards and I did not have a problem.

I leave in four days. My scoped 416 hits just under the bull at 25 and just over the bull at 50. It's a 1.25-4 power Swaro in QD mounts.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Remember, the "right way" to hunt elephant is "your way", since you're the one paying for the hunt.

Does this same rule apply to hunting lions? Just saying.

Do you need more answers to your question, or can you figure it out from here? Just sayin!

No, I get it. Your money is your money if you are going on your elephant hunt; your money is not your money if you are you are going on your lion hunt.

Sorry for the derailed thread.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Remember, the "right way" to hunt elephant is "your way", since you're the one paying for the hunt.

Does this same rule apply to hunting lions? Just saying.

Do you need more answers to your question, or can you figure it out from here? Just sayin!

No, I get it. Your money is your money if you are going on your elephant hunt; your money is not your money if you are you are going on your lion hunt.

Yep, that's exactly what I said. I'm gald you don't have a reading comprehension problem!

I knew it was only a matter of time before the denigration of the non-believer would begin.

If you can't see open sights then use a scope. If using a scope get a lower power or a 1.5-4.5X Leupold set at 1.5. You'd be amazed at what you can't see at 10 feet.

A rifle sighted-in at 25 yards is pretty much sighted-in to 250 yards.

I wouldn't use a scope on a bet.

For Gawds sakes...........Take this frickin' Lion pissin' contest somewhere else. I asked a simple, straight forward question to receive input from the combined experience and wisdom of the forum. Hasn't enough been said....enough people been discouraged....insulted....belittled to suit your ego's. Stop it already.
THANK YOU TO ALL WHO HAVE RESPONDED ON THE SUBJECT SO FAR. Please continue.....the rest of you with hidden personal agendas - Please butt out!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
I don't know Mike, have numerous animal rights groups placed petitions on the desk of the U.S. Interior Secretary and the USFWS, asking to have the elephant immediately uplisted to an Endangered Species?

Have the leading elephant scientists in the world, who do favor elephant hunting, suggested that too many young/immature elephant bulls have and are being killed, thus threatening the longevity of the elephant across all of Africa? Especially in Bots, where they are so grossly over-populated, its pathetic?

Are these scientists suggesting that unless they see some serious changes in the elephant hunting practices across Africa, they are gonna recommend the ESA listing, to both the USFWS and Ken Salazar?

Mike, its often easier to avoid the facts, than to face the reality! If that's what you consider to be good stewardship of the African Wildlife, carry on sir.

quote:

Originally posted by bcolyer:
For Gawds sakes...........Take this frickin' Lion pissin' contest somewhere else. I asked a simple, straight forward question to receive input from the combined experience and wisdom of the forum. Hasn't enough been said....enough people been discouraged....insulted....belittled to suit your ego's. Stop it already.
THANK YOU TO ALL WHO HAVE RESPONDED ON THE SUBJECT SO FAR. Please continue.....the rest of you with hidden personal agendas - Please butt out!

If you read my original post, I'm fairly certain that's all I did, was help answer your question from my perspective.

Have you considered one of the "dot" scopes like the Trigicon? Sighted at 25 yards.

Consider a Trijicon 1x4. It has a 30MM tube and is a true 1 power at low end. I just put one on my 416 Rigby and I can shoot with both eyes open at super close range. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm better with it at closer ranges. When I shoot fast with iron sights I often have the bead not buried in the rear sight and shoot high.
Mount the scope with Talleys and worse case remove it if it proves impractical.

I've not hunted Botswana, so I would ask my PH a couple of questions.

1. What is the average range for the first shot on a bull?

2. What shot do you prefer, the brain or the heart?

Based on those, you should have your answer. You will know the target and the average distance. Brain shots are usually close (10-30 yards), other shots can be farther. Anywhere between 25-50 yards should pretty much do it though. Low-power scope with QD rings in case you decide you need a wider field of view.

I am with some others here in that I would prefer close in with open sights, but it is not my hunt or my money so you should prepare for what you and the PH have decided for your trip.

I've shot 3 elephant with a 1.75x6 Leupold on my .416 Rigby at the lowest setting sighted dead-on at 50 and had no problems... the other I shot with a .404 Jeff scoped with the Zeiss 2.5x8. DRT.

The distances elephants are shot at, it really makes no difference at what range the scope is sight at.

I have shot a number of elephants, probably from 15 to 55 yards, with scoped rifles sighted in for normal hunting distances.

I have used several calibers, roughly sighted to be 1.5 - 2.0 inches high at 100 yards.

These include the 375 H&H magnum, 416 Weatherby, 416 Rigby Improved and our own 375/404.

The last of my 3 elephants was indeed shot with a scoped rifle. A CZ 550 with 21" bbl and Swarovski 1.5-4.5 scope. The calibre was in fact 416Rigby. Stock was a Brockman laminate. The Elephant was shot out of a large herd at approx 15 yds. A lung shot and elephant went about a mile before dying. The scope is sighted spot on at 100yds and set at 1.5x. Load was a handload in Bell Brass with a Woodleigh 410gr FMJ. This rifle shoots cloverleafs at 100yds with this load. Had no problems using the scope at all. I could easily see the crease behind the leg and shot with the right front leg in the rear of it's step meaning I shot too far back. Had I been using open sights I would have probably done the same thing. They were all around us and moving pretty fast by the time I shot. If I could do it again I would use the same rifle and sighting but try to take the shot on the forward step. Quite honestly at the time all I was interested in was the crease. Actual position of the leg never entered my thoughts.
Your hearts going pitty pat and thoughts are probably not totally logical. I drilled in my mind to follow the crease up and shoot and that is precisely what I did. Zeroed at 100yds it is virtually point blank at anything under and only about 6" low at 200yds.

I have shot 1 elephant with .404J and Leupy on 1.5. Works for me. Can't see open sights anyway, so my choice was easy.

I shot my elephant with a 1.5 X 5 Leupold scoped 375. In hindsight, I think irons would have been a better choice.

Dave

A low powered, wide angled, quality variable should do the trick. At 1.5, one should be able to shoot using both eyes. A little practice helps as well. Bcolyer, between now and April next year, there is enough time to make a choice and practice some.

Nothing wrong with a scope. 1- 1,5 power and Zero at 15m. Cannot see too many PH's let you shoot an ele beyond 25m - but check poi at 10 and 25m just to be sure

I prefer ghost ring sights for close range hunting or a low power scope.
Must admit that some things indicate, that a scope is faster for accurate shot placement even at short range, if you have low or no magnification and are used to shoot with both eyes open..

My two cents worth. The good low-powered scopes have plenty of field of view but I think some double gun purists who are used to using iron sights of some sort may have trouble adjusting. I sighted my .416 Rem in at 50 yds. and it did fine with buff at 80 yds. and elephant at 15. On an earlier hunt, I dropped a wounded bush buck (charging)at 10 ft. or less and had no trouble finding it in the scope in the thick jesse.

One well-known PH I spoke with had a client who killed a lion, buff, and some plains game with a scoped 9.3 x62 with little trouble. Then he screwed up a nice trophy elephant bull (hit it over the right eye) with a non-scoped double. Having requested that the PH not shoot till he had fired both barrels, the bull escaped into Mozambique. Perhaps if he had used his scoped rifle, he might have made the shot.

I prefer open sights for both Elephant and Buffalo due to the fact that both will be very close. That being said, I cant see why a low power scope wouldn't work just as well. I had a friend shoot his using a swarovski 1.5-6x42 with no trouble! Just know that your shot will most likely be 15-40yds. I think the second shot with a scoped rifle would be much more difficult than the first shot which is why I prefer an open sight double!
All that being said, I too would choose the opportunity to hunt elephant over the opportunity to have a double rifle!

I have shot a couple of bull elephants. One with a scope and the other without.

I sighted both the scope and the irons to hit point of aim at 50 yards. That gave me a dead on hold from spitting distance all the way out to maximum range (for elephant, that is).

IMHO, a scope is not needed for elephant, but in open ground, it can help with shot placement.

I would not want to use a scope under jungle conditions. In my experience, a scope can hinder quick, close range shooting in heavy brush.

bcoyler,

I've shot two elephants only. One with a 1.75x6 Leupold another with a straight 3x both seemed fine sighted in at 50 yards.

I think the open sight as opposed to a scope debate for elephant is somewhat dependent on whether you think you need be able to smell the elephant's breath to have hunted elephant. Personally I think when you get to a range where you can feel confident in making the shot you should take it.

Mark

Good topic (except for pizzing contests) for me as I was planning to ask the same question. I hunt BOTS in May, 2012 and discovered by missing a broad side trophy whitetail 20 years ago at 80 yds that I must have a scope. I will shoot a .416Rigby with 400gr solids while looking thru my SWA PH at lowest setting and I plan on being up close and personal. Thanks for "real" advice!
I think I shall bench rest zero at 100yds and then off hand check point of impact at 50yds, 25 yds and 15yds....that would be all my old shoulder allows!

Many places that are hunted for elephant will be quite thick in April or May and that is likely to mean close work. Better suited for open sights. Exception could be Botswana, especially if hunting the delta. There generally is no perfect solution, just a matter of taking an educated guess based on where you will hunt and what your personal strengths and shortcomings may dictate.

Look forward to your report when you get back.

Four elephants, three with a Lyman 48 receiver sight, one with a Lyman 2 1/2X All American scope. The scope was in Suhler claw mounts, and it could have been ripped off immediately, had the need occurred.

All three of the iron sight elephants were in the open and clearly visible. The scope elephant was standing behind some heavy brush, with only his head visible, almost vertical, as he was reaching up to strip a branch off a tree. Very difficult to get a sight picture for a side brain shot under those circumstances. Range about 40 yards.

He went down at the shot, but was clearly not brained and tried to get up again, so follow up shots were needed, very difficult because of the intervening brush. Unable to get closer because of a very aggressive askari, who was trumpeting and threatening to charge, despite the shooting going on. Eventually a heart shot saved the day, made infinitely easier by the scope.

This was with my Krieghoff O/U double rifle, caliber .458 WM. The other three were with my .505. Both sighted in at 50 yards.

The intervening brush had been cleared away for this photo:

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm .... nice bull!

I used a 1.5X5 Leupold on my 416 Rem sighted at 100 yards to shoot an elephant. I was in Zim hunting buff and leopard and was asked if I wanted to shoot a Pac bull at night. Worked fine.

BigB

Dead on @100 yards will do fine

B Have banged one with a 458 Lott and a 1.5/5x Up close is a hindrance. Now shoot open DG express sights and want to shoot up close. Yes can make a chest shot at 100yds, but do not want too.
Have an aimpoint 1X with red dot. both eyes open it is the cats meow. Get red dot on target and let it rip.

Whatever you decide "Make the Shot".
Mike

quote:

Originally posted by bcolyer:
Well boys.....if you were hunting Botswana in April of next year, and chose to use a scoped rifle. What range would YOU have it sighted 'dead on' at?
I'll be using my .416 Rigby. Yeah well....I cannot afford a double. Spending it all on the hunt!!!! Yeah....I could take the scope off. But I shoot pretty good with the scope ON! Let er' rip.................

Sight in at 100 yards. Your bullet will never deviate from your line of sight by more than 1 inch. As to the scope/nonscope debate, if you are an old fart like me, a scope is the best option if it can be turned down to 1.5X or less especially if you are used to a scope more than irons.