In May of 2011 I hunted my first elephants in both Zim and Botswana. I used a scope sighted 416 Rigby that was dead on at 25 yards. PH Andy Hunter walked me in under 25 yards on a tuskless and a Botswana bull. Shot placement was easy and the scope worked fine. It's the first shot that really counts!
lb

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


A 100 yds zero would be OK but would make the 25 yard shot way low! .....

Mac, I don't get it!!!

My iron sight 458 when sighted in at 50 is back dead on at 100 (or vice-versa).

Either way its NOT way low at 25 yards!!!

..... Under hunting conditions even over sticks most people cannot consistantly hold a 2 1/2 in point of impact at 100 yds, so what is the problem? Wher you need surgical exact placement is much closer to 25 yds than 100 yds when shooting elephant.

OK Mac...Let's try tihs again!

You were the one telling me if I sight in a 100 yards my bullet placement will be "WAY LOW" at 25 yards. I've given you the details to say its NOT!

Now you pompuosly ask me ", so what is the problem?" I never had a "problem" - I can sight that rifle in at 50 or 100 yards and it will be less than 1/2" low at 25 yards. The balistics your spewing STINK!

Thank you LB for your response and input.....and CONGRATULATIONS on your
elephant!!! I pray I will be as fortunate. I suppose it is once again time to step out of the way and watch another pissin' contest take place. If it ain't Lions...it is Rifle sighting.
JUST A THOUGHT.......that should apply to me first. "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourself". Oh shucks....I hope I am hi-jacking my own thread in a more positive direction.
Again Congrats on those Elephant!

Hey bcolyer, just one more comment from me on this thread. I forgot to say it on my previous post.

I wish you good luck on your upcoming hunt and sincerely hope you have the time of your life.

Todd

The set up I have on my 404 bolt gun is probably the best compromise between iron sights and a scope. I use the 2x Leupold EER scope set with ocular lense back in a position half over the action i.e. not the true scout position.

The scope provides a single point for sighting on target, is not too high power so is good for close in shots and with both eyes open there is always a full field of view and awareness. In this position it is not so forward that you feel remote from the scope. I used the 404 on buffalo with the open safari sights before I fitted the scope, and I did not find these particularly great having been used to using scopes all the time up until then.

I note Pondoro Taylor spoke well of using scopes and was looking forward to trying out the then new Leupolds when he wrote his famous book. Of course as a professional hunter he took his game as he found them, not having any romantic notions about having to be in trunk range of elephant before shooting. He even mentions an EER scope as possibly being the best set up for his style of hunting.

Each to his own though and what works best for varying eyesight and familiarity.

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


A 100 yds zero would be OK but would make the 25 yard shot way low! .....

Mac, I don't get it!!!

My iron sight 458 when sighted in at 50 is back dead on at 100 (or vice-versa).

Either way its NOT way low at 25 yards!!!

..... Under hunting conditions even over sticks most people cannot consistantly hold a 2 1/2 in point of impact at 100 yds, so what is the problem? Wher you need surgical exact placement is much closer to 25 yds than 100 yds when shooting elephant.

OK Mac...Let's try tihs again!

You were the one telling me if I sight in a 100 yards my bullet placement will be "WAY LOW" at 25 yards. I've given you the details to say its NOT!

Now you pompuosly ask me ", so what is the problem?" I never had a "problem" - I can sight that rifle in at 50 or 100 yards and it will be less than 1/2" low at 25 yards. The balistics your spewing STINK!

Sendero why are you getting upset? The numbers I gave you are not mine but right out of a sighting sliding computer for scope sighting on a 458 Win Mag! Because you don't understand the numbers doesn't make them wrong,or even smell bad!

Are you talking about your iron sights or a scope on your 458? If you are talking irons, then the way you have it is fine if that is what you want, but with a scope being higher above the bore the settings I gave you are correct. The difference in the sighting if both irons and scope set at 25 yds will be different because of the difference between the scope and the iorns hight above the bore.

Those balistics my "STINK" but if they do it is simply because you don't like them, not because they are incorrect! Those bullet paths are taken right out off the SIGHTING IN GUIDE, a liding computer for the primary adjustment starting at 25 yards and computes all the way out to 350 yds Max for some cartridges but only to 300 yds for the 458 Win Mag with a 510 gr soft bullet @2130 FPS.

Once again it reads;

+1/2 in @ 25 yds

+1 1/4 in @ 50 yds

+2 1/2 in @ 100 yds

+1 1/4 IN @ 150 yds

[CO:LOR:RED]about zero again @ 160 yds [/COLOR]

-2 3/4IN @ 200 yds
...........................Point blank range!
- 14 IN @ 250 yds

-27 1/2 in@300 yds

The 170 yd in read is an estimate (not on the computer)with the highest point along the point blank range in this case is 100 yds! Some do not understand what POINT BLANK RANGE means! It is the max range where you can hold the same sight, and still place bullets in a 6 in bull, in this case a little over 200 yds.

Now Sendero you may do as it suits you, but the numbers I have again posted are correct for the 458 Win Mag @ 2130 fps with a 510 gr soft point zeroed at 25 yds, and will again cross the line of sight @ about 160 yds with the highest elevation above line of sight being 2 1/2 in @100 yds.

Do you really think you can hold exactly on a 2 1/2 in spot when shooting an elephant at 100 yds off hand or over sticks? I would say you would be lucky to place the shot from a 458 Win Mag in a 4 in circle when looking at an elephant that is looking back at you! If he is moving toward you, well......................you make a guess!

Sendero send your anger someplace else I've had my fill!

quote:

................................

Why don't you do that and let us know how it works out for you on your next Lion hunt! Or maybe the PH could let us know if you are unable!
.................

Here is just one more LONGGGGGGGG STINKING post on this subject!

Since the iron sights on most big bore rifles designed to be used to as stopping rifles for elephant are cut to be dead on at 50 yards up through the 470NE class on bolt rifles, and many times 25 yards on the 470NE class,double rifles, but certainly for .500NE up! You simply hold over or under for longer ranges. Nobody IMO should be hunting dangerous game and not knowing where his rifle shoots at any range up to 125 yards.

Nothing changes simply because you are shooting a scoped rifle the trajectory is still the same for the cartridge being fired in that rifle.

With dangerous game, the most critical zero range is very close off the muzzle of the rifle. The trajectory of most big bore rifles .500, and over about .400, cross the line of sight very near the 25 yard mark, and again down range at about 125 yards with the high point at around 75 yards. The critical accurate ranges needed for elephant hunting are no different with a scope-sighted rifle than they are with an iron-sighted rifle, with both set zeroed at the same, close–in, range. The very precise placement is far more important at 25 yards than at 100 yards on any dangerous game.

A rifle zeroed dead on at 100 yards, will be shooting low at 25 yards, or less, where the placement of the bullet is far more critical when taking a frontal brain shot on elephant. IOM, it is far better to remember the amount of hold UNDER at 100 yards than to try to remember the amount of hold OVER at 25 yards or less on an advancing elephant, or in my case a cape buffalo. Of course the brain size is much smaller in the Cape buffalo than in an elephant, but the placement to hit that brain must be just as precise! The closer that animal gets the more need for a precise shot placement!

Since most here will be using a 500NE or smaller what ever your irons sights are set at, that is what your scope should be set at on the close range setting, and learn to hit at longer range where the shooting is safer for the shooter, and hunting party.

Below is what Taylor had to say about trajectory of the 600NE, which we all know is not a particularly flat shooting rifle! Taylor says the 600NE is flat enough for the longest range elephant should be shot at! Anything flatter (smaller) is no problem at all for the ranges an un-injured elephant should be fired on.

quote:

Taylor on trajectory of big bore elephant guns
Page 48 AFRICAN RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES

“I’ve heard it said that the bullet for the 600NE is too heavy for the powder charge. Now that can only mean that the trajectory is not sufficiently flat, or the bullet lacks penetration. It’s quite clear the men who make who make such remarks have never used a .600N .

In view of the close ranges which elephant are shot, Remember 40 yards is a long shot on elephant. About the only times you may be called on to fire beyond that distance are on those rare occasions when you may find your elephant in a small clearing or at water where there are a bunch of cows, calves and immature animals between you and the big bull. When this happens it might sometimes happen that you have to fire at the exceptionally long range of 70, 80, or possibly even 90 yards. Well your 600 has a flat trajectory for 100 yards so what are you worrying about? In any case, since you will probably shoot more accurately at long range with a lighter rifle, why not use it? Every man who possesses a .600 is bound to have a smaller-calibered weapon for general use what’s to prevent you using it if such a long shot is called for. “

IMO, Taylor had it right considering his business was shooting elephant for a living! There may have been two or three people who shot more elephant than Taylor, but I don’t think many of them post on this forum! Again IMO, with today’s quality bullets, and modern powders along with the really fine barrels on the rifles, makes most big bore rifles used for elephant flat enough to use out to 100 yards on an AT REST elephant, and to 150-200 yards for a hip shot on a wounded, escaping, elephant, regardless of sight type! As I said at the beginning I’m not an elephant hunter, but I certainly would have no qualms with taking a 200-yard parting shot on a fleeing Cape buffalo with my 470NE double rifle! I’ve killed moving Wild boar with that rifle at 125 yards with chest shots. A 300-pound Wild Boar is far smaller than a cape buffalo, and certainly smaller than the pelvic girdle of an escaping elephant!

In my opinion, all dangerous game should be hunted close in, because dangerous game is simply not DANGEROUS at 100 yards. The fact is the whole idea of hunting dangerous game is BECAUSE it is dangerous! Otherwise what is the point?


...........................................................The END!

I am unlikely to ever hunt elephant, so this may be a very stupid question, but does anyone use the electronic red-dot type optics? EOTech, Aimpoint? Zero magnification but a good aiming dot? They don't look classy, but the military uses them these days on all kinds of weapons.

Outside of looking "un-safari" like, would they be a better substitute for iron sights for those with older eyes?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Here is just one more LONGGGGGGGG STINKING post on this subject!

.....Loooooong....,

Mac,

You have skirted the issue I took exception to like the perverbal scaulded dog. You can not accept that a 458 sighted in at 100 yards IS NOT "WAY LOW" at 25 like your earlier post quote stated!

I know the trajectory of my rifle:

25yds = -0.3"
50yds = 0.0"
75yds = +0.5"
100 yds = 0.0"
125 yds = -1.1"

You sir, don't seem to have a clue. Hope others reading this will see/smell your ballistics for what they are worth.

If you want to make your dangerous game hunt more dangerous then sight in at 25yds instead of 100.

Regarding hunting shooting distances,IMO,that depends on alot of factors including caliber,type of game,light conditions etc...but the way I see it, if you are all set up and the trophy animal,or maneater is in your sights at a distance that you are ok with then that is the right way.IMO,anyone who thinks DG should only be shot at very close quarters does not make sense or is more of a stuntman than a hunter.

When sighting in a rifle you should go and shoot it regularly the way you will be shooting on a hunt and adjust from real life experience and not by way of the book or bench.You can later double check and see how it groups and where is POI from a bench but the only thing that counts is where it will shoot offhand or off the sticks and in a hurry.

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Here is just one more LONGGGGGGGG STINKING post on this subject!

.....Loooooong....,

Mac,

You have skirted the issue I took exception to like the perverbal scaulded dog. You can not accept that a 458 sighted in at 100 yards IS NOT "WAY LOW" at 25 like your earlier post quote stated!

I know the trajectory of my rifle:

25yds = -0.3"
50yds = 0.0"
75yds = +0.5"
100 yds = 0.0"
125 yds = -1.1"

You sir, don't seem to have a clue. Hope others reading this will see/smell your ballistics for what they are worth.

Ray I don't care if you zero your rifle at 1000 yds that is your choice But I still think you are useing iron sight data and the question was with a scope FOR ELEPHANT HUNTING!

The difference in the iron and scope sights is not a dream. One is simply higher above the bore of the rifle so must be used differently.

Think what ever you want!

Ths post is like fighting over what's better a red head or a blond.

The first thing to consider is your eyes, if you are a older hunter a scope or a red dot may be the way to go.

Older hunters with irons need longer barrels on double rifles, the front sight on a 26" 400-450 is very clear ( It's a rifle with a great feel), the front sight on a 22" 470 is not clear at all even with a peep, ( I have never shouldered a a big bore double with a barrel longer than 22",not sure how it would feel).

I haven't shot open sights on a boltgun in so long I don't know what works for me now other than it need's a peep to work at allfor me.

Scopes

I have a 1-4 nikon 30 mm on my 470, and a 1x4 meo k circle on my 9.3x74. I shoot both eyes open even at 4x and have no trouble getting on target. At 25 yards I am faster with the scopes than with irons. I have trained to shoot with them alot. At 1x I loose no field of view with both eyes open.


Red dot's

I have several on ar- m14 type rifles they are fast and are sure out to 100. The one's I like best won't do well on a double. I have shot Rusty's and like it a lot though.


The new 1x4 scopes with lighted ret/red dot by viper,nikon and meotopia would work real well on a doubles even in bright light , they are l as fast as red dots,gather light and allow for magafcation on longer shots. Most of the scopes set up for CQB would work well if the have enough eye relief.


Iron sights

If you have the eyes and enough light they are the way to go inside of 50 yards, Under 25 yards they have an advantage, if the rifle fits right and you pratice enough you won't need them at all and will just hit where you are looking. For me a peep is the way to go with irons, I have one on my merkel 470 and it works well,but the front sight is still fuzzy.


JD

PS: It does't hurt to have a blond for some days and a red head for others, just don't let the brunet catch you!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:
I know the trajectory of my rifle:

25yds = -0.3"
50yds = 0.0"
75yds = +0.5"
100 yds = 0.0"
125 yds = -1.1"

You sir, don't seem to have a clue. Hope others reading this will see/smell your ballistics for what they are worth.

Well Ray I hope you get a clue, because you don't seem to now have a clue of what I'm telling you! Because it doesn't agree with you opinion doesn't mean it is not true!

Again those are not "MY" balistics but are Weaver's from their computer for adjusting a SCOPE, which is higher than IRON SIGHTS above the bore of YOUR rifle or anyone else's for POINT BLANK use.

YOU seem to not have a "CLUE",a word you seem to like, that what I was disputing was the need to zero at 100 yds to use a scope for elephant hunting!

The most usable way to zero any hunting rifle is for POINT BLANK RANGE to make it more usefull for the shooting at any range inside the PBR without haveing to wounder the hold over at any range within that PBR! ie; POINT BLANK RANGE is the end range where the flight path of the bullet of any cartridge can be zeroed at 25 yards (essentially the first range where the bullet crosses the line of sight through A SCOPE), and still be held within a 4 inch impact point on the target out to the point where the bullet drops below (the second zero point)and still stays within that 4 inch bull after it crosses the line of sight the second time. In the case of a 458 win mag with a 510 gr soft point @ 2130 fps that point blank range is just past 200 yards with the highest elevation being 2 1/2 in at 100 yds.

Again the 458 Wim Mag @2130 fps with a 510 gr soft:

+1/2 in@25 yds

+1 1/4 in @ 50 yds

+2 1/2 in @ 100 yds

+1 1/4 in @ 150 yds
.............................ZERO AGAIN @ 160 yds
-2 3/4 in @ 200 yds ............................WITH POINT BLANK RANGE @ just over 200 yds! With the highest point in the trejectory of the bullet being +2 1/2 in over the whole point blank range of just over 200 yds. This setting makes it more likely you will hit the brain at 25 yds, or the hip joint of a fleeing elephant at 200 yds with a 458 Win Mag.

I'd bet YOU can't cosistantly hold within 2 1/2 inches under hunting conditions at 100 yds with a 458 Win Mag rifle shooting at 2130 fps with a 500 gr bullet.

What this is showing is that a 100 yard zero is not necessarily needed to be on target at anything from muzzle to just over 200 yds with a 458 Win Mag rifle with a scope mounted! That was the question, not how should your iron sights be cut!

I have no idea who, if anyone, tought you manners, but son you've got a smart mouth sitting behind a keyboard! I really don't think that was necessary, do you? you don't have to agree with me or anyone else on this forum, but you need to leave the insults in your desk drawer!

What I just wrote and in the pervious post are the balistics and trejectory of the example cartridge 458 Win Mag @ 2130 fps from a scoped rifle! Take it or leave it, your choice! Certainly, no matter where you zero your rifle you need to shoot it at all the ranges where you are likely to be shooting, that is a given, but if you want your rifle zeroed at 100 yds be my guest! I'd rather have mine zeroed for point blank ranges no matter what I was hunting with a scoped rifle! Over 62 years of handloading and shooting of big game starting hand loading at the age of 12, and with factory ammo before that from age six years, that PBR has worked for me. You may do as it suits you!

.................................

Mac

Most of us know that you are correct-

dont let someone beating a dead horse upset you.

My intro to PBR was IIRC in Jack O'Conners writings, or maybe Elmer Keith-

SSR

LOL - No Cross,

I'm not trying the beat a dead horse. I was tring to corrct an inaccuracy, but It ain't happening with Mac. LOL

What I can offer the OP is a website that wiil help him:


http://www.jbmballistics.com/b...rs/calculators.shtml

If you have never used a trajectory calculator before - 1st try the "trajectory simplified" option. All you'll need is a measure of sight height, the pick your bullet from the drop down (or have a BC for your bullet) and a muzzle velocity. It will calculate for you the numbers we've been discussing.

Now, You stiil need to shoot at least 2 different ranges to check how well this calculated trajectory profile fits your particular rifle/bullet/load.

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:
LOL - No Cross,

I'm not trying the beat a dead horse. I was tring to corrct an inaccuracy, but It ain't happening with Mac. LOL

What I can offer the OP is a website that wiil help him:


http://www.jbmballistics.com/b...rs/calculators.shtml

If you have never used a trajectory calculator before - 1st try the "trajectory simplified" option. All you'll need is a measure of sight height, the pick your bullet from the drop down (or have a BC for your bullet) and a muzzle velocity. It will calculate for you the numbers we've been discussing.

Now, You still need to shoot at least 2 different ranges to check how well this calculated trajectory profile fits your particular rifle/bullet/load.

Ray, you are beating a dead horse because you simply don't even understand your own info, if you think the bullet doesn’t cross the line of sight at two ranges. In your own trajectory that you posted below you prove the two crosses do exist! The red print in your quote is mine! I think your father must have hit you in the head a little too often!

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:
I know the trajectory of my rifle:

25yds = -0.3" ….Below line of sight
50yds = 0.0" ………1st cross going above the line of sight
75yds = +0.5" …above line of sight
100 yds = 0.0" ……2nd cross going back below line of sight
125 yds = -1.1" below line of sight AGAIN!

You sir, don't seem to have a clue. Hope others reading this will see/smell your ballistics for what they are worth.

When you get out of high school, recover from a closed mind and start shooting real rifles, or real animals, rather than on the internet get back to us on this!

NOW! see you have just brought me down to your level of manners!

...................IGNORE!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Ray, you are beating a dead horse because you simply don't even understand your own info, if you think the bullet doesn’t cross the line of sight at two ranges. In your own trajectory that you posted below you prove the two crosses do exist! I think you father hit you in the head a little too often!

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:
I know the trajectory of my rifle:

25yds = -0.3" ….Below line of sight
50yds = 0.0" ………1st cross going above the line of sight
75yds = +0.5" …above line of sight
100 yds = 0.0" ……2nd cross going back below line of sight
125 yds = -1.1" below line of sight AGAIN!

You sir, don't seem to have a clue. Hope others reading this will see/smell your ballistics for what they are worth.

LOL - duh!!!

Mac, I know that - Why do you think I put the + and -s there?

You just now figured them out?

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:
LOL - duh!!!

Mac, I know that - Why do you think I put the + and -s there?

You just now figured them out?

Then why do insist there is NO CROSS! Get lost kid your making a fool of yourself!

Hello A7Dave

I am no expert but when I shot my Elephant I had a 458 Lott with a Leupold 1.5-5 x scope, after 13 days of tracking and seeing how close you need to get in thick brush to even judge the Ivory I know I did not need a scope, I shot the Ele in the open at 40 yards and in the excitement had the scope smack me twice in the forehead, by the time the Ele fell I was soaked in blood.

If I hunt Elephant again it will be with a red dot sight at 0 X or open sights. My advice leave the scope home you do not need it.

Regards
Aziz

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:
LOL - duh!!!

Mac, I know that - Why do you think I put the + and -s there?

You just now figured them out?

Then why do insist there is NO CROSS! Get lost kid your making a fool of yourself!

Mac, You are either so mixed-up your beyond help or your a liar!

I've never "insisted there is NO CROSS!" That was another poster. You will not see that in any my posts - You have spin this crap.

Matter of fact mt first post Posted 10 Jul 2011 12:43 PM -stated that "My iron sight 458 when sighted in at 50 is back dead on at 100". Showing I knew it crossed twice.

If you will go back to this post you''l see my exception was your comment that "a rifle for Ele would be way low at 25yds when sighted-in at 100". You were wrong then, you can't knowledge you wrong and now your spinning shit to cover it up!

Ray, given that the OP is about elephant hunting, the important thing missing from this info is the trajectory at below 25 yards, say 12 and 6 yards...

The average line of sight when using a scope is about 1.5 inches above the bore. With most DG calibers, if sighted in at 100 yards, the bullet will rise to the line of sight, cross it and continue upward approximately 1" and then impact the line of sight at the 100 yard mark and then begin to descend.

There is a caveat, though. If you "think" you're sighted in at 25 yards and don't try 100, you may be sadly mistaken in the field because small errors at 25 will be multiplied dramatically at 100 yards.... so, the thing to do is sight in at 100 yards and confirm the physics at shorter distances (and longer, too, if you wish) by then shooting them.

There are multiple sources for charts that graphically show the same, i.e., Winchester Ballistic Calculator.

I just ran the above program with Winchester factory ammo in .458 Win Mag and 500 grain bullets. As you'll see, the difference between where to hold on an elephant's brain from power burn distance to 125 yards isn't enough to even begin to worry about, IMHO, anyway. Every shot, say at a pool ball (much smaller than an elephant's brain), would hit it from zero to 125 yards.

My advice if you're going to use a scope, sight in at 100 yards and then shoot intermediate distances to prove that the calculator is correct and to build confidence.

That said, I've killed a few elephants and hopefully will kill another next week. I wouldn't consider anything but iron sights, but to each his own.

If you want to calculate trajectory for iron sights, just measure the height of the front sight to the center of the bore and use one of the internet free calculators, putting in your bullets ballistic coefficient, velocity, etc. You'll see that at elephant ranges with an iron sight calculation for a 25 yard zero, you'll be in the same pool ball out to a bit shorter distance (say 80 yards). Try Beartooth and then go shoot some. Physics work.

All this was figured out long ago. That's why express sights have multiple leaves for longer ranges with the first flip-up usually (but not always) at 100 yards (cause that's were you first need it). We don't need to re-invent the wheel... but just use it.

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:
Mac, You are either so mixed-up your beyond help or your a liar!

I have to call you out on that one. Mac is one of the last people on this forum that could be called a liar. You may disagree with his position, but to suggest that he may be lying is over the top.

quote:

Originally posted by RaySendero:
Mac, You are either so mixed-up your beyond help or your a liar!

I've never "insisted there is NO CROSS!"

You were wrong then, you can't knowledge you wrong and now your spinning shit to cover it up!

The mistake I made was because if the first two words on the post below!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RaySendero:
LOL - No Cross,


Those two words being far above the text, to what I see now as addressing “CROSS L” ,with the "L" left off, looked like a STATEMENT on your part about the crossing of the bullet path twice on it’s way to the target a point blank range! My mistake!

I admit that both yours and my zero system will stay in a (as the Judge says) in a pool ball to about 125 yards, with a scope setting, however the POINT BLANK RANGE setting will give you a far better end range while still being within the pool ball at 125 yards, but making the rifle more useful for a wounded elephant going away out to just over 200 yards for a hip shot. This simply makes the rifle a better over-all rifle!

At that just over 200 yard mark the bullet is still within a 4 inch ball, and the highest point in that range is only +2 ½ inches at 100 yards, and that is tighter than most can hold at any of those ranges under hunting conditions!

What I’m telling you is not spinning, but fact! Again as the Judge says, and I have said as well, no matter where you zero your rifle in, that rifle should be shot at all the ranges you intend shooting across the whole PBR for fine tuning, I never said otherwise!

I personally prefer irons, but a 1 power scope with a lighted reticle might be better of the shooters eyes negate the irons!

Ray you have a mouth on you, and that tells me that you are one of three things. If you talk to people the way you talk to me here, face to face you are either a real BAD ASS, or you are carrying around a lot of scars, or the one most here would think is the case. You only issue insults from a keyboard!

……………………………….Good day young man! I’m through with anything you have to say henceforth!

I am probably the most dense person on this forum so I can well be incorrect in this. From my Nosler 5th edition loading manual on page 671 it gives the 'Universal Table for rifle bullets with ballistic cofecient of .390-.399'. My 416 Rigby shooting a 400 gr bullet has a BC of .390 so it should fall within this table. Loaded to a book velocity ( I don't have a chrono) of 2421
which is a load of 100grains of RL22 and listed as the most accurate load (my CZ550 custom cloverleafs 3 rds at 100yds regularly with this load) and was what I used on my last Elephant . The table shows that bullet at 2400fps at muzzle is 1.5" LOW at the muzzle and 0.0 at 100yds which is what mine does everytime. Now since trajectory is an arc beginning at the muzzle and rising to a mid point and then descending to a point of aim it would seem logical that between 0 and 100yds the bullet is going to rise from BELOW the line of sight to cross the line of sight on it's ascent in the trajectory and reach midrange and descend to point of impact at 100yds. Since I don't know midrange height of the arc I can't for certainty say exactly where the bullet crosses the sight path while ascending but I am reasonably certain it does. I would imagine the mid-range to be MAYBE .75 above line of sight which would be a circle of not greater than -1.5 plus .75 to be point blank range to 50 yds which would give a circle of 2.2" and being linear that would mean about 1.1" at 25yds. If this in fact is not true I have been reading and living by these tables in error for over 50 years. That could quite probably be true as math and geometry and physics are not my strong points. They used to give midrange in older tables such as Stoegers and Gun Digest and for example with a 100 yd zero for a 458WinMag at 100 yds zero the midrange is 1.1" as shown is some Gundigest tables. This was assuming an .8" height above bore of the sights. I would assume Irons.

Mac,

Are you still arguing with this guy/girl? The question was answered along time ago.

When some guy/girl shoots the elephant in the foot, what difference does it make what range the rifle was sighted-in at?

Mac,

Assuming one can ignore the bullet drag out to 100 yards one can calculate the drop based upon the bullet velocity.

I would invite your antagonist to prove his/her point, without all the mumbo jumbo.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Mac,

Assuming one can ignore the bullet drag out to 100 yards one can calculate the drop based upon the bullet velocity.

I would invite your antagonist to prove his/her point, without all the mumbo jumbo.

Will

I think what you and Mac may be missing is that RaySendero is only taking issue with one point that Mac made.

I believe that Ray is taking issue with the fact that Mac stated that a 458 would be way low at 25 yards if it is sighted in to be dead on at 100 yards.

On this point Ray is right. It might be slightly low at 25 yards, but there is no way that it is going to be "way low". I think that we can all agree that .3" is not "way low".

The other thing that I think Mac has overstated is the difference between trajectory when using iron sights or a scope. In the real world iron sights sit about 1" above the bore center line, and scopes only sit about .5" higher.

quote:

In my opinion, all dangerous game should be hunted close in, because dangerous game is simply not DANGEROUS at 100 yards. The fact is the whole idea of hunting dangerous game is BECAUSE it is dangerous! Otherwise what is the point?


...........................................................The END!

Mac, I agree 100% with this statement. I often read statements such as "Go with the scoped 375, that's all you'll ever need". It is a fact that the scoped 375 will take any and all forms of dangerous game. Maybe not the best choice in every situation, but there is no denying the fact that the set up works and works well.

But for me, there is more to hunting dangerous game than that. I like the challenge of using a DR with open sights up close as a personal choice. Similar to the choice of hunting with archery gear instead of a rifle. To the archer, the experience is more fulfilling.

As an example, on a buffalo hunt last year, due to open terrain and about 100 sets of prying eyes, we determined that a shot of about 100 yards was as close as we were going to get. So I switched from the "two pipe" to the scoped 375 and made the shot. The buff was down within 40 yards with one shot. Very effective. But I also realize that there is a limit to how many DG hunts I will be able to afford in my lifetime and I felt that I cheated myself out of the experience, even though the gun setup and cartridge worked and the buff was harvested.

Just stating my opinion of what is right for me, not suggesting that anyone should believe the same for themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Mac,

Assuming one can ignore the bullet drag out to 100 yards one can calculate the drop based upon the bullet velocity.

I would invite your antagonist to prove his/her point, without all the mumbo jumbo.

Will

I think what you and Mac may be missing is that RaySendero is only taking issue with one point that Mac made.

I believe that Ray is taking issue with the fact that Mac stated that a 458 would be way low at 25 yards if it is sighted in to be dead on at 100 yards.

On this point Ray is right. It might be slightly low at 25 yards, but there is no way that it is going to be "way low". I think that we can all agree that .3" is not "way low".

The other thing that I think Mac has overstated is the difference between trajectory when using iron sights or a scope. In the real world iron sights sit about 1" above the bore center line, and scopes only sit about .5" higher.

No, it's not WAY low at 25 yards. Depends on your definition of low!

Some of these post are quite silly while also being quite frustrating. Guys keep on asking questions for which the answers are either easily found or can be sorted out themselves without the help of the internet.

But then I could quit reading them!