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I just received the latest issue of SCI Magazine. Contained in this iassue is a story , and advertisement about long range shooting at animals in Africa. I refer to this as shooting, and not hunting. For me the term hunting implies that a certian amount of stalking takes place to get as ckose as possible to the prey. Personaly my goal is to see how close I can get,(in the case of Buffalo or Elle. inside 30 yards if possible), not how far I can shoot. Getting close also helps to aid in a good clean kill. Somthing we all want. Where is the tension that with one wrong move, or a sudden change in the wind the prey runs off, and we have to start over. I also question the ethics of thease long shots. The X ring on a target at 1000 yards is 12". That is about the thickness of a Springbuck (pictured in the article). How many people can routienly make that shot? My guess would be less than 1 in 1000. So, How many crippled antelope will we have with near misses. I am not trying to lessen the skill required to shoot long distance, but this can be demonstrated with targets. The animal has no reason to try and escape, and probably does not even know thw shooter is there. THIS IS NOT HUNTING!!! I am very dissapointed that SCI supports and encourages this. Bob Schofield | ||
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Most people do not work at long range accuracy. People who do the work are better than others would imagine. When I was on my game a 600 yard cold bore shot was not difficult. And I was not nearly as good as many of the guys who were actually serious about. Sand Creek November 29 1864 | |||
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Even in Africa, sometimes one has no choice but to make a long range shot. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that, as long as the hunter and his equipment are capable of making it work. | |||
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When preparing for a Marco Polo hunt in Kyrgystan few years ago I spent several months in rifle prep, load development and field shooting to 500 yards. That is a damned long shot if you've never done it. I think a lot of hunters think of it as just twice as long as 250 yards. It ain't so. I got to the point that I felt very confident, at least to 400. (I shot my ram at 140 yards.) | |||
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I'm sure there are long range shooters who are capable of making a hit at extended ranges, although the time of flight gives me issues as far as shooting at a game animal at distance- but-- in Africa, if you wound an animal you pay for it, and similarly most guided hunts if you wound an animal you are done. At what range should it be an automatic "you pay for it" shot, and the justification is that "you know your gun, you must have hit him, since you are such an accomplished expert."? Personally, if you let fly at over 400 yards for a shot, in general, as far as I'm concerned, you pay/punched your tag, whether or not you bag the animal. Somehow, I think if that applied, you would see a heck of a lot less "long range sniping" at game. All that was is an ad for that computerized long range shooting system. Its a neat system, but as far as I'm concerned, it does not belong in the hunting field, just on target ranges and military use. | |||
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Nonsense! There is always the other choice of not shooting until you can get close enough for a proper shot at hunting range! | |||
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Saying you should punch your tag if over 400 yards is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. I have the right set up, practice all the time and have the confidence to make it happen. Shot my last elk at 574 yards and he ran 20 yards and was done. Don't judge just because you cannot do it. | |||
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Very true Todd. It is of course your choice. But, if I have been following some buffalo all day, and the only chance I get is to shoot one at long I have no problem doing. In fact, I cannot remember, ever, wounding or missing one shot at long range. We always brought it back in the back of the truck. | |||
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I enjoy shooting at gongs at 500 to 1000 yards. There are 2 key variables to it that make it a hobby I will not extend to game. First is wind drift especially cross canyon shooting here in Idaho. You can have several winds affecting your bullet such that it may be pushed left then up then left again then down all before it gets to the gong. You wouldn't believe how far off you can be. Second is time of flight. That elk over yonder at 700 yards has a scary amount of time to move while the bullet is in flight. He might take a step or 2 or whatever and you shoot him in the guts even if your as great a long distance shot as you think you are. No thanks, I respect the game differently, and enjoy the difficulty of getting close. I'll stick to gongs at distance and game up close. | |||
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I agree with Saeed. If one is capable of consistently making long-range shots, I say take it it. Saeed is an experienced hunter and shooter who uses first-rate equipment. He is shooting within his capabilities and the capabilities of his equipment. Nothing wrong with that. AIU | |||
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One does not necessarily have to get to 30yd or under, to execute a good clean kill. Getting really close sounds good,and sometimes makes for good story telling but then we have those skilled stalkers, who then dont have the nerve to fire any more than two shots from their SxS, and/or those skilled stalkers, that then start running off- backwards in fear & panic to find safety. ....and then the Ele or Buff has to start its persuite all over again! ... 
'proper shot at hunting range' would ultimately be determined by: - the terrain/vegetation - and actual individual skill-proficiency of the rifleman. | |||
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I agree there aer certian types of hunting, and areas where longer shots are necessary. Vaal Rhebuck in the Caoe, or any Sheep hunt come to mind. A long shot on Gemsbuck, or Springbuck is not uncommon. A reasonable stalk is still required, and the animal can still sence you and escape. That is still hunting. My issue is with purposely setting out to shoot animals at extreem distances. In the case of the article 1000 yards. Bob | |||
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Both of you go back and really read what Saeed stated. He said that "sometimes one has no choice but to make a long range shot. I've hunted Africa a few times, as well as quite a few other places and for the life of me, I can't remember EVER not having a choice as to making a long shot or attempting to get closer. It's possible that trying to get closer might mean the animals bust us, run off, and I don't get a shot at all, BUT I STILL HAD A CHOICE of whether or not to make the long shot. And yes, I'm capable of making some long shots. Have done it in the past. But I've made the CHOICE not to in most cases today. | |||
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And then we have those who have read a lot about Bell, Ruark, Selby, and a few others, but haven't actually done anything in the field themselves, but simply live vicariously through those who have been there and done that, and actually know of which they speak!!   | |||
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I've made long shots on plains game but when hunting dangerous game, getting close is just too big a part of the hunt to have to take a long shot. Takes the thrill out of the aspect of hunting dangerous game to take a long shot. At least for me. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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I started this thread about a year & a half ago. http://forums.accuratereloadin...851053471#1851053471 LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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Todd, I think it is simply a matter of choice with someone like Saeed who is not a run of the mill shooter. However, like you, I want to get as close as I can to things like Buffalo, simply because that is what makes hunting of buffalo fun for me. I have seen buff in places where I could have shot them at long range and make the shot a finality, but I chose not to, because for me it takes away part of the hunt. There are animals that often require long range shooting! Like Sheep, goats, and Prong horn very often, and nobody gets upset about that long shooting, because it is very often necessary. I like hunting cape buffalo BECAUSE they are dangerous, and they simply are not dangerous at 400 yds, so I like getting as close as I can, but that is my choice. Where I have a problem with folks who go out to try to shoot on live animals as far as they can. That is not, IMO, showing proper respect for the animal. The groups who set up on one side of a wide valley with a shooting bench to watch a game trail many hundreds of yards away. Firing on a standing Elk when the trigger is pulled and he takes a step before the bullet gets to him, causing a gut shot. If he is put down OK, but With a large animal like an elk, or moose he may not show any sign of being hit, and move off out of sight to die of a gut shot. I doubt any long shooter is going to leave his bench to go across the valley to see if it was a miss or hit. But will simply stay at his bench to wait for another one to pass for a shot. IMO this is the reason so many dead animals are found after the season is over in areas where these shooters play their games! Different strokes for different folks Though! Just not for me personally! ................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Mac, See my above response to Saeed and AIU. | |||
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Hunting with a sharp pointy stick at close range went out of style a few thousand years ago. Anyone who has hunted the pans and/or mountains in Africa knows that sooner or later, a 300+ yard shot is the only way to collect a trophy or camp meat. There is no difference when elk and sheep hunting here. If the 300+ shot is not in your bag of tricks, you will either miss taking a trophy or go hungry or both. The long range hunters are consistently and ethically taking animals well beyond 600 yards. It's not for everyone and you must have the proper equipment to do it well. In regards to the ethics of long range hunting, the animals are seldom pushed or spooked before it's lights out. In my book, that's about as ethical as it gets. The real issue is there are a few hunters who show up in Africa that cannot hit the broadside of an elephant standing 20 feet in front of them. So I have no problems with long range shooting as long as the 20 foot shot is not too challenging for them.  ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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I agree that stalking as close as one can is indeed the essence of true hunting! But sometimes one must shoot plains game at long range to get anything. This year hunting in Masailand we stalked skittish game such as Fringe ear oryx and Grant gazelle. After 1 to 3 hour stalks, most every animal taken was between 250 and 350 yards. All clean kills. This was on the open "Mbugas" plains where grass was barely 1" tall and flat as a billiard table. Fortunately my clients were from a western USA state and were very used to shooting pronghorn, deer and sheep and fairly long ranges. I have seen hunters that anything over 75 yards was a long, difficult shot; and seen some clients knock down something cleanly at 400 yards. It all depends on the hunter and his weapon. | |||
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Via email a few days ago "SCI Announces Tracking Point as Newest Corporate Sponsor TUCSON, AZ: Tracking Point, makers of the Precision Guided Firearm (PGF), has become a new corporate sponsor of Safari Club International (SCI) ...." Might be why there was an article in the SCI mag about it. | |||
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Nobody can consistently and cleanly take game with one shot at 500-1000 yards unless you have a Clintonian definition of "consistently". If you are taking a shot at this range (500-1000) because you fear not getting an animal or you fear not being able to eat, well that tells me more about who you are than simply what kind of hunter you are. | |||
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Discussing hunting "ethics" on a forum like this is a bit like coming to a discussion with a large group of people and asking "what woman should I find attractive?". The fact is that many of the contributors have different experiences and belief systems that influence their answers. And I would expect many of those answers to change over time as peoples life experience continues to influence their thinking. To me, the bottom line is that as hunters we need to stop squabbling with each other over what are essentially nuances of a lifestyle choice. If we all put this much energy into fighting the anti-hunter, anti-gun crowd, we would all be far better off. | |||
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I never thought we were fighting! I thought we were expressing our own choices of hunting. This is actually no different than those who like to hunt with a bow and arrow, or use open sights. I would not even dream of hunting with open sights, as I know my own limitations with my eyes. I would not even dream of hunting with a bow and arrow. Because I have never used them before. But, I would never tell others not to use open sights, doubles or bow and arrow. | |||
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I look at it this way: If a hunting situation dictates that I take a long shot that I feel comfrotable making, I'll take the shot. On the other hand, I have no desire to set out specifically to take long shots and would never pass up the opportunity to get closer. If I want to take hard shots for the sake of it, I'll go shoot prarie dogs. I'm about to head to Wyoming on a high country mule deer hunt and I've been practicing out to 500 yards. I have a lot of confidence at that distance but I have zero desire to take a shot at that range. But lets say that I wound a deer at 200 yards that runs off and offers me another shoot at 500- I'll be ready for that shot. | |||
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Saeed That's exactly my point. I HAVE hunted with a bow (47 games animals in Australia and Africa). I HAVE hunted with open sights (Buff in Zambia). I much prefer to hunt with a scoped rifle, and I take shots that are longer than what many others would be comfortable with. I enjoy the hunting and practice shooting that I do, and can do it very well (not trying to boast, just making the point that I am competent). But if I described in detail the way I enjoy hunting, I would have any number of people posting to tell me I am not measuring up to that other persons standards in some way or another. I find that many in the shooting sports DO take the view that their outlook is "right" and tend to be very intolerant of everyone else. Maybe its just a vocal minority that tends to get noticed, rather than a silent majority that doesn't enter into the conversation at all. You only have to look on this subforum to see how many people get quite heated in these types of discussions - and many are essentially related to debating a person's value judgement. | |||
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Sadly, the intolerant ones only show their ignorance of what hunting is. From beginning of time, man has been hunting, and always using the best equipment he has, to the best of his abilities. From throwing stones, to using spears, bows and arrows. To riding horse and shooting off the back of them. | |||
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A couple months before my most recent ele hunt, I practiced some 1000 yard shooting (not for ele) and made consistent hits with a .338Lapua and a .308. None of my Buff or Ele have been taken in excess of 35 yards and closest was at 15 yards (Ele). That is my preference on DG. Having said that, I have made shots in africa at 450 yards on more than one occasion. These shots were on PG as large as Nyala and as small as Reedbuck and Bushbuck, using my .300wm, which I zero at 200 yards, because getting closer in the terrain was simply not possible nor necessary. I don't care if someone chooses to shoot Buff and Ele at over 25 yards. I just believe they are missing out on a great challenge and a lot of fun. I enjoy the rush. I think this is Todd's position as well. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Absolutely Mike. I like to hunt up close but that's just my preference. Everyone is free to hunt in whatever manner they like as long as it's legal. I don't go into the ethics arguments as that really is a personal position. Also, although I prefer to use double rifles, I don't have a problem putting a scope on them if necessary because properly regulated, they really are just fine out to a couple of hundred yards or more. But I'm not against using a bolt rifle or single shot as I like all kinds of weapons. Whatever floats one's boat is just fine. My only point was that there IS a choice as to whether or not one wants to take the longer shots. It might mean the difference between coming up empty and filling the tag, but there still is a choice. And sometimes I do make the choice to shoot the longer shot, but no one forces me to take the shot. Last year, late in the safari, after tracking a nice eland bull off and on for several days, I finally had the opportunity to take a shot at about 350 yards. I was using my double 9.3X74R with the CEB Non-Cons but for some reason, my rifle will not stabilize them with the tips installed. So we chose to attempt to get closer. He ran into Moz and that was the end of it. But it was my choice to use that weapon with those bullets, it was my choice not to take the shot, and the fact that I didn't take an eland on that particular safari was not a problem. My choice!! | |||
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Exactly!  Buddy!Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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IF its a choice between reading from humble professionals like Bell and Selby or reading about a relative amateurs guide to - speed shooting with SxS at stationary paper tigers, which has about Zero value or relevance to hunting DG in the field, Then rest assured I will sensibly choose the likes of Bell & Selby every time.
- Some people might feel they have too much advantage over an animal, others never enough, and thus choose their equipment/style of hunting accordingly. - When ones hunting purely for ametuer-recreational purposes, there seems more luxury of choice of what style/method of hunting they can employ and what shots one may prefer/choose to take. - Some people simply chasing thrills can get themselves into situations they cannot really handle or resolve themselves, putting others at unneccesary risk and prolonging the suffering of the animal. | |||
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I work for a gunsmith. We get customers who ask “what should I use if I have a shot at 1000 yards”. I say “A better guide” Mark | |||
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There is another article in the same issue titled "A long Journey". If someone can post that on Ar - perhaps under a separate thread - i'm sure we will have a 5 pager  Let the games begin....  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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There are many people out there capable of making shots at extreme ranges. There are lots of rifle/cartridge combos and optics designed for shots out over 500 yards. What I have not seen is projectiles that are designed to do a competent job of killing at extended range. I have yet to see this issue raised in this kind of discussion. As previously stated, the fact that an animal out there at 6-700 yards can simply take a single step, and turn a shoulder shot into a gut shot is an issue that does not seem to concern those who champion long range shooting at game. We are living in an era where "Extreme" experiences, and pushing the envelope with everything out there is glorified. Couple that with a culture that lacks personal accountability for one's actions, and this is an inevitable result of that mindset. To each his own, I'll continue to get as possible to my quarry and savor the true value of the hunt. | |||
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It comes down to a "can do vs should do" decision. Thanks to some world class training at the SAAM Precision course with Tim Fallon, I have learned to bang the gong at 1000 yards, fairly consistently. Heather has even done so after a session with Tim. But...on a unwounded animal, no way I'm going 500 plus, and that is stretching me well beyond my comfort level. The last time I took a super poke was at the end of a South African safari where I just could not miss. I was really in the zone for me. To cap off my sniper week, I took on a nice hartebeest between 450 and 500yards. At my shot he jumped, I thought from a heart shot. The assembled crew bowed and cheered, until we could not find him..anywhere. We found blood, but no animal. A week after, the landowner killed him at a water tank where he was trying to drink through his shattered jaw, compliments of my smart ass circus stunt. I was sick, and still think of the suffering I caused this animal. NEVER again, my lesson was learned. Can I do it better? Yes, but I think it is unethical to push the limits to put on a show. The ability to shoot accurately at extreme range can be taught, ala SAAM schools, and enjoyed in the extreme, but on live animals we should improve stalking skills vs long range plinking. And those long range shows NEVER show the misses\ woundings( bad for business) and they happen boys, trust me. Dave Fulson | |||
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posted 06 September 2013 17:55 Hide Post There are many people out there capable of making shots at extreme ranges. There are lots of rifle/cartridge combos and optics designed for shots out over 500 yards. What I have not seen is projectiles that are designed to do a competent job of killing at extended range. I have yet to see this issue raised in this kind of discussion. As previously stated, the fact that an animal out there at 6-700 yards can simply take a single step, and turn a shoulder shot into a gut shot is an issue that does not seem to concern those who champion long range shooting at game. We are living in an era where "Extreme" experiences, and pushing the envelope with everything out there is glorified. Couple that with a culture that lacks personal accountability for one's actions, and this is an inevitable result of that mindset. To each his own, I'll continue to get as possible to my quarry and savor the true value of the hunt. Posts Exactly my point. Thanks Gracedog. Bob | |||
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For me, the stalk is the fun of it all... the shot is anti-climatic... it's the end.. Hunt basically over.. That being said, I have taken a pronghorn at over 500 yards, only because I just couldn't get any closer (and I missed the first shot clean, hit him in the neck on the 2nd)...My 375 groups into 3/8" consistently at 100 yard from the bench... even better than my tricked out 308, but I will not even attempt a field shot over 300 yards anymore... the fun for me is all in the stalk.. I'd rather stalk and have the animal spook and run than take a long shot these days... The exception being woodchucks and prarie pooches.. The challenge IS the distance.. you either kill em clean, or miss completely.. Just my 2 cents. NRA Benefactor. Life is tough... It's even tougher when you're stupid... John Wayne | |||
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Since so many others have chimed in, I guess I might as well too. My problem with SCI publishing this article has more to do with their readership than with the concept. By that, I refer to the comments I've heard from more than a few PH's about "SCI Hunters" who show up, out of shape, with a gun they aren't familiar with, and want to hunt animals off a list to get closer to some award. That type of individual has absolutely no business trying to add long range shooting to his approach to 'hunting'. I think for a qualified rifleman who has the proper equipment and practices regularly at distance, shooting within his known limitations is acceptable. On the other hand, I'm a bowhunter in addition to hunting with rifles, both black and smokeless, so getting closer is something I don't have a problem with doing. I've passed up shots at more really nice elk under 100 yards, but over 50 yards, than most hunters will ever get the chance to shoot. I think a quality every bit as important as the ability to shoot at long range is the ability to know when not to squeeze the trigger, whether on a rifle, or a string release. | |||
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I actually have to agree with Dave on this one for sure.  Could be a first huh Dave? Have a great day!!Larry Sellers SCI (International) Life Member
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If they ask this question, they really have no idea what they are doing at this range.
Sand Creek November 29 1864 | |||
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