The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Has the recession and the US dollar affected Africa?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Forgive me if this topic has been done already- I haven't been hanging out in the AR Africa forum much lately. Just wondering if the lower US dollar has increased Safari prices? Or has the recession made it a buyers market, forcing companies to be aggressive in their pricing/marketing? 375 Ruger- The NEW KING of the .375's!! | ||
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Or has nothing changed, for that matter!  Or anything else related to the topic.... 375 Ruger- The NEW KING of the .375's!! | |||
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Gatehouse, A worldwide recession has had to affect the safari business. I personally know several hunters who have declined going to Africa and Alaska due to economic uncertainty issues. The wealthy can always afford to go. The middle class who have to struggle to pay for $20,000-and-up hunts have most certainly been affected. | |||
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Everyone will get squeezed, some more than others and it will impact every aspect of the Safari business. If you have the funds to book a hunt, then make your best deal and go now. Don't wait for better conditions as they may never arrive. STAY IN THE FIGHT! | |||
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I am tired of people calling this Wall Street caused catastrophe a recession. Let's be honest. It's a depression. Repeat after me: DEPRESSION. And you can be damned sure that it has affected the safari industry, and drastically. More people in the safari industry than I can list have been hit to the breaking point by this. Some driven completely under. Safaris experienced a bubble just like many other sectors did, and the bubble burst. People aren't buying hard goods, so what makes anyone think that they're buying safaris? It will get better, but when is anyone's guess. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Some things have changed worldwide. Some outfitters are ready to talk turkey, many more will start throwing in a few concessions on the extras. The big one for a Canadian is that our dollar's recovery against the US has functionally cut our costs in half compared to 6-7 years ago. I tell my friends that if they can't afford half-price now, they should quit dreaming. The odd one listens. | |||
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The economy sure has affected my Africa plans. I had to cancel my July trip to Zim and reschedule it for May solely because of the impact of the economic downturn on my business. | |||
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I am a waterfowl outfitter in Alberta Canada. I will say last year I only had 39 hunters in my camp. That is the worst I have had in 9 years of being in business. This year I am back up to 81+ and the season is booked as much as I would really like to do this year. I don't know why it is this way. I thought it is because most hunters have thought the worst is behind them and they know what they have for extra cash to spend. I also have groups now that come every second year instead of every year. The big game outfitters in Alberta seem to have had trouble booking for the most part. Maybe becaue the hunts are more $$ I don't know. I also see a lot of camps and licenses for sale and nobody buying. Things are tough for most outfitters I think. One of the big things is the dollar. Witht he exchange rate the way it is I am taking a 30-40% hit from what I did years ago. That hurts in the end. I am greatfull it is not my full time job or it would not be fun right now. I do it becaue I love to hunt birds and I meet a pile of great guys every year. We have 85% repeats every year now and most of the hunters I can call friends now. I am welcome to stay at their homes and visit and I like that part of it. Hopefully things turn around for the U.S but I think thye are going to get worse in the next little while or continue on the way they are till some changes start to help things. My 2 cents for what it is worth. | |||
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I hear that there are not many hunters on the TZ flights. My hunt was booked after someone cancelled. | |||
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African outfitters that have a good European following appear to be doing fairly well. Those that catered heavily to American hunters are feeling the heavy drop in bookings. Many African outfitters quote rates in Euros as our USD has depreciated over 10% against other world currencies in the last year alone. Even with the EU's financial problems, the Euro is still more stable than the USD. The net result is that it will cost Americans more to hunt abroad. Look at the AU dollar. It is worth $1.07 USD currently. All of these certainly affect one's plans to book next year. Geoff Shooter | |||
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The outfitter in RSA where I hunted in 2009 and will hunt again this September prices his hunts in US$. With the present high value of the Canadian dollar relative to American, it will mean a cost reduction of more than 5% this year compared to 2009. Hugh | |||
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I think depression is probably a more appropriate word than recession but putting that aside for a moment....... I think it's going to vary not only from country to country but outfitter to outfitter. On the one hand, there are fewer clients this year but on the other, fuel prices are steadily increasing worldwide which puts all prices up and in RSA for example, electricity has also just gone up by 25% and will go up another 25% next year and again the year after. All these things mean virtually nobody, whether they be in the hunting industry or anything else is going to have a good year. Sure some guys will cut prices but overheads are steadily increasing and we all need to make a living so in the long term, this will probably mean that price cuts may well have to equate to lower product quality in many cases. In other words my crystal ball tells me next to bugger all!  | |||
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We cancelled a three week trip to Zim because of the depression. | |||
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Me too. I am in the construction industry and it is still in the crapper.  ______________________ Age and Treachery Will Always Overcome Youth and Skill | |||
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Shakari, I've read about your electric bills going up, and up, and up. But when I drive in and out of Joburg, all I see are nuclear plant cooling towers, and lots of them. It appears that you guys should have cheap electricity. So what gives? Also, the States are in a prolonged recession, not a depression. A depression would be a whole lot worse than what we are experiencing now. Both of my parents lived through the 1930's depression, and it wasn't pretty. Glen | |||
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Molepolole, electricity, property rates, refuse removal, sewerage, every damn thing is going up to pay for the over inflated salaries of the ruling party and their jackass socialist experiments. The greater majority of the population get a portion of their electricity for free. The rest of us pay and pay for the urgent construction of coal burning plants, and massive 100% bonuses to the management of the electricity supply mob. The cooling towers are from coal burners. Then they give mining rights to their buddies in order to provide coal to the plants without ascertaining as to their capabilities or even if they own a wheelbarrow and a massive advance on the contract, which then is used to purchase a luxury German sedan before the purchase of a wheelbarrow. Man, Portugal looks better everyday.    SUSTAINABLY HUNTING THE BLUE PLANET! "Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful, murder respectable and to give an appearence of solidity to pure wind." Dr J A du Plessis | |||
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I have never been to Africa and am hoping I can do a hunt in 2013. I notice that all the outfitter still advertise the full package prices on their websites (if they are up to date!) Some of them have the specials - but these are just the teasers to get you on the hook. African Trophy rates have not dropped! Why? US hunts are about 30% to 50% less than they used to be 5 years ago. Why are the African hunts not as discounted? My next related question is - why do the African outfitters still keep the base line so high? The bubble was BIG 4 or 5 years ago. Why not drop the base line like the other industries have done? Do you have to have all those costs in camp? Why not offer buffalo & leopard hunts with 2 or 3 star camps? Or even fly camps? You would then sell all your quota and get your hunting costs and profits covered. Yes I know that all outfitters will negotiate packages. But for a newbe like me, that is not easy as I do not know what the correct base cost should be. If all the outfitters updated their websites with current realistic prices and special deals, I think they will get more booking. Is it not better to sell all your hunts in advance at a discounted price rather than gamble on top rates and then have unsold hunt? "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Steve in bold. Scriptus, We'll be sure to have a spare room for you!  Naki, Prices are high because guys have school fees & other bills to pay and families to feed. Believe me, very few people in the hunting industry get rich out of hunting. Prices are high because running costs are high....... that's life I'm afraid. | |||
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Gatehouse, thinking of heading across the pond? | |||
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Scriptus, Thanks for the explanation about your upwardly spiraling electricity bills. I've been to SA enough times to know that what you are saying is 100% correct. I didn't realize those were all coal-powered plants, but looking at all the slag heaps around Joburg, it now makes sense. Shakari, You are right, "depression" is something many of us feel with Obama at the helm. Glen | |||
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All I can say is Amen brother. If people really want to do something to help the hunting industry...just make sure we change administrations in the next presidential election. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Time for a booking agent to come along and say how great everything is.......  | |||
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ha ha....i wish. The DEPRESSION has most certainly affected the entire Industry. Fact is less people have disposable cash. Fact is that hunting in Africa is an expensive sport . I think any agent worth his salt will, or should acknowledge that the majority of hunters make great sacrifices to pursue their dreams . Getting bang for their buck for their clients should be most agents top priority. | |||
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Conditions worked to my advantage, as far as hunting goes. I was able to hunt a bull elephant in Botswana last year. That would not have been possible had prices remained at '07 levels. | |||
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I don't think most Safari Operators have that much room in their margin to drop prices. Those that hunt their private property and own the game on it will have more flexibility(usually limited to plains game), but those with Government/Communal safaris areas are pretty boxed in. Their marketing (foreign conventions) and the petrol prices are probably killing them. I got a feeling many of them are already living off their tips. STAY IN THE FIGHT! | |||
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I'll repeat one of my questions....why do they not offer more of 2 star hunts with basic camps? Would that not cut costs by say 20% compared to a 5 star camp with all the extras? I ralise that labour / wages are cheap in Africa. But petrol / diesel, vehicle cost etc to cart in all the luxury stuff must be a big part of costs.... "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Naki, One must remember that Africa is a continent not a country and that each country has it's own set of laws and legal minimum requirements. RSA for example has stipulated minimum standards for a camp if it is to be used by overseas hunters. All that said, if you look on the hunts offered forum, you'll find hunts from not much more than a couple of hundred USD a day. Out of that you have to take wages for PH & staff, road, fence and property maintenance, anti poaching/security costs, vehicle finance, fuel, tax and often other govt fees and food/drink for the clients etc........ and the guy offering the hunt also has to make a profit to ensure his family don't starve. That really isn't expensive for what you're getting. | |||
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Steve is spot on. One can have a fabulous time on plains game in the many regions of RSA and Namibia alone for what it costs to MAYBE see an elk in NA. ~Ann   | |||
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There are only two nuclear power plants in South Africa and they are in Cape Town. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K...uclear_power_station You're simply seeing cooling towers that are being used to cool conventional (likely coal) power stations. | |||
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Just like my good veterinarian friend in Harare was doing in 2008...I'll be taking my wheelbarrow full of money down to the filling-station to fill up my truck before long. The New USA...a Zimbabwe in the making!  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Steve stop giving my room away to strangers!!!! I want out of the usa so bad it hurts. this depression we are in really suck. | |||
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I reckon the credit rating downgrade is going to slow things down even more and spending my retirement on a little self sufficient farm with a trout stream with no damn neighbours in the middle of Portugal is looking more attractive as every day goes by! Hooker, we'll try & keep a spare room in the barn like the did in the old TV westerns for you! | |||
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You might be able to cut cost by 20%, but the retail price would only fall by 10% or 15% assuming total profit is to be kept the same. Any that discount would only be off the daily rate, trophy fees would stay the same. So the total change in hunt price(daily rate, trophy fees, airfare, etc.) would be about 5%. Not enough to make a big difference in actual affordability. And keep in mind, you might be willing to rough it for a week of two, but your PH has to live in that camp for half the year. Client comfort is not the only reason safari camps are so posh.  Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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The recession has affected all of my hunting, but combined with the declining dollar it has really put a hold on any international hunting. I am really glad I went in 2010 because the increase in costs would have moved the hunt out of my range if I was trying to do it this year. DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Naki, A safari is more than an opportunity to kill animals you have not seen before. It is a total experience. If you could buy a safari that was "roughing it" as I know it the hunt would not be a safari but a much reduced experience. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Judging by the news, the depression with the help of the USA, just made the hole a little deeper for the rest of us.    At least I do not have to go far to hunt in Africa.  | |||
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Thank goodness for that. A while back, there was a whole lot of nonsense on the go. A routine service shutdown ended with bolts being found where they should not have been and the ruling party lot claiming third party sabotage. Shades of Mickey Mouse.  | |||
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We are not in a depression. A depression requires a significant contracting of the economy as a whole. We are barely even in a prolonged recession. Our economy has simply been flat since 2008. Just looking at US statistics real GDP has basically been flat from 2008-2010. US GDP in 2008 was about 14.6 trillion 2009 was $14.3 trillion and 2010 is estimated at 14.7 trillion. The Global Economy contracted by slightly less than 1% from 2009 - 2010. Hardly a depression. By comparison the Great Depression saw approximately a 25% reduction in US GDP form 1929 to 1933 and it took approximately another 4 years to return to 1933 levels. US employment rose from 5% in early 1929 to approximately 21% by 1934. The global economy contracted by approximately 50% in the Great Depression. I hate to be the bearer of good news (or bad news depending on what happens next) but we are no where near a depression at this point. 2008-2010 is a flat spot on the Global GDP chart. Certain industries like construction have dropped a lot since about 2007. Except everyone wants to forget the crazy growth in the construction industry from 2001 to 2006. The challenge we are going to face is unemployment which impacts individuals may stay in 7-10% range for a long while because businesses have come to realize they can produce the same with less staff. Because the economy is closely related to politics, the only thing more inaccurately reported on than the economy is guns and hunting. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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How ironic. I dialed up my favorite PH in Namibia yesterday (on the internet) and found his webpage had been "suspended". I sent an email but have not heard anything yet. He may have folded. He ran a first class operation and offered a wonderful hunting experience. I hope this is a minor hiccup and not a "closure". We could debate the economy all week but as a person who deals with general manufacturing, construction and heavy industry I can tell any of you folks that this may take years and years to return to anything like what we saw in 2006 and before. | |||
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