All this talk about the .404 Jeffery got me to looking around. I'm not familiar with this cartridge, and am hoping some of you folks can beat me with a clue stick..

In Saeed's data, it appears that the .404 will fling a 400 gr pill at approx 2350-2400 with 75-80 grains of most powders, a performance level that the .416 Rigby reaches at 95-100+ grains. Is this an accurate comparison, or apples and oranges? Additionally, if the comparison is valid, I would think that the recoil from the .404 would be a veritable pussycat compared to the .416 at comparable levels of performance. Am I looking at this a)correctly b)kind of correctly, or c)do I need a plexiglass stomach because my head is up my ass? Thanks.....

cengel

The 404 is about the same case capacity as the 416 Remington but with bullets of .423 diameter as compared to .416.

In a nutshell it has the same sort of performance but has lots more pizzaz or desirability than the 416 Remington but the 416 Remington is far more practical as in rifles available, cases and bullets.

In my opinion unless the 404 was put together in the right sort of custom rifles, then forget it and go 416 Remington.

The advantage the 404 offers over the 416 Rigby is that it offers the nostalgia factor but it can be chambered in a wider range of rifle actions.

Mike

[ 05-17-2003, 18:07: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Not to mention that the 416 Rigby operates at lower pressures. While bullet selection for the .423 diameter bullet is anything but limited, the availability of .416 bullets is greater.

All of that said by a 404 Jeffery owner/shooter.

Good luck.

Reed

cengel,

Here is some info I found on the web:

.404


Left to Right: .450/.400 Jeffery, .450/.400 3�", .404 Jeffery, .470, .458 Win. Mag.

Regards,

Terry

In all honesty,even though myself and some others duke it out, we all know the 404, 416 Rem. and the 416 Rigby are one in the same for performance on game any way you cut it....A 400 gr. bullet at 2400 FPS is just that. It is a proven combination for any of the worlds big game....

To get back to apples and apples from grapes and grapefruit, please note that the original .404 Jeffery load was a 400 grain bullet at 2,125 fps and a pressure of 16 tons. Those are long tons of 2,200 pounds, so the pressure would be equivalent to 35,200 psi. The English factory ammo from Kynoch made this cartridge's reputation in Africa. This cartridge is effective, efficient and low in recoil.

Things were cool until the 60s when the Kynoch factory loads were terminated. People then ran on the large stocks of .404 ammo (Kynoch was making a lot of it for the colonial game departments so they had a large supply on hand). Other suppliers later got into the .404 Jeff ammo market.

The cartridge went into a decline until the 90s. In '93 Ruger introduced their No. 1 and the M77 RSM for the .404 Jeffery. But by '95 they were gone from the line. Why did this happen?

I have been researching the history, and my working title is: Who killed the .404? I have a suspect.

I am still chasing details, but right now there are at least two cartridges in the US with .404 Jeffery on the barrel of the rifle. Groove diameters may be .418", .421" or .423". There are also at least two headspace specifications. There is a CIP spec for the cartridge, but there isn't a SAAMI spec.

You don't need to run this cartridge up to 2,400 fps MV, because it is not needed to reliably kill animals. You can do so. If I wanted to operate the higher speed version, I think I would just chamber a rifle for the .404 Dakota (an improved version using .423" bullets). Although proprietary, it is well-defined.

Ray is correct that all of these cartridges will produce the same terminal ballistics.

jim dodd

To solve the .404 specs problem, I offer my rifle to USRAC, CZ, UPS, SAAMI, AFL-CIO, EDST, CIP, POTUS and Homer Simpson. They can cast the chamber and slug the bore. Thereafter they should use the molds to build reamers, dies, etc. .423 Barnes, A-Square and Woodleigh bullets all shoot fine in my gun. The Grand Poobah can hereinafter forever declare that my rifle is the standard... why??? Because it works. So.. mine must be right. No?

BTW, (and on a serious note) I've shot my gun at 2400 fps before, but since it is so accurate and pleasant to shoot with 75.5 grains of RE-15... and 2300 fps ain't so bad, I just shoot that. All the above bullets, be they monolitic, sold, soft or whatever, all hit within 2" of each other... and that works for me.

If you want to learn something about spec problems, you ought to talk to GAHUNTER. He had a .404 built and whatever the matter is, it misfires even though two gunsmiths have tried to fix it. Mbogo375 and I have theories about why it clicks instead of booms, but the best solution is to have it done right the first time and by that, I mean having someone who is experienced in building .404's to do the job. I'm sure that Jack Belk or John Ricks (and others here on the Forum) can do you a fine job.

And, answering a question that follows this, anticipating with the magic of cyberspace, the 1909 action will do just fine. My .404 is built on an Argentine, albeit Oberndorf.

[ 05-17-2003, 22:48: Message edited by: JudgeG ]

I have a 1909 Argentine Mauser (DWM) action that I plan on turning into a project soon. I was thinking 9.3x62. However the 404 Jeffrey is of interest to me as well.

Could a good gunsmith use my action for the 404? Reliable feeding being of the utmost concern. Or, do you need a larger action? I know that the 9.3x62 is a no brainer for this action.

Tim

JudgeG
A question for the continuing academia of the 404 Jeffery. What is the difference in felt recoil in your rifle, at original ballistics [400gr.at 2125fps] verses a 400gr. at 2400fps....
Off the bench...
Standing........
Crouching as to shoot under limbs, brush etc.
Thanks.

Shumba,
Yes you can use that action, as a matter of fact it is a waste of a Magnum Mauser to build a 404 on it, much better a 505..The 1909 Arg. is the perfect 404 action in my opinnion..combined with a Blackburn, Wisner or Sunny Hill drop box and let our own John Ricks, Jack Belk, Dennis Olson or Jim Brockman do the metal work and your in business...add a Blackburn trigger, a m-70 Wing safy, nice iron sights and a piece of nice walnut (which I have) and your in business, don't skimp, go first class and it will forever bring a better price than it cost..this is the history of big bore rifles, but for some reason not standard caliber fair, they seem to depreciate in those small calibers.. ?????????????

N.E. 450 #2:

I'm not the person to ask about recoil. Being somewhat larger than a Habitat for Humanity house (Jimmy Carter always ties on his hammer belt when he sees me), recoil just does't bother me much. It's old hat to say that those long tapering Nitro Express cartridges "shove" instead of "kick", but I think the concept is right.

When I shoot a "big bore" from the bench, I do use the little side of a folding sissy pad and fold the fat side over my shoulder. I do that, however, to stop brusing more that to stop pain. It just makes the shooting experience more pleasurable. Also, when bench shooting, I make sure my right elbow has a pad under it. I "busted" a bursa in my elbow once when shooting a N.E. double rifle. Darn thing swole up like Rosie O'Donnel's face.

Finally answering your question, if your rifle weighs over 9.5 lbs with scope and mounts, I think anyone over 150 pounds will think the .404 is a pussy cat if velocities are at or under 2400 fps.

JudgeG
Thanks. My next question was going to be...
Do you find the recoil of a 400gr 404Jeffery at 2125fps. more plesant than the typical 375 H&H. I shoot a 450/400 3 1/4 double that weighs 9 1/4 lbs. that I find more plesant to shoot than the various 375's I have owned.
cengel, For deer and pig hunting I use Hawk 300gr. .025jkt. bullets in my 450/400 at @2330fps.[that is the velocity they regulate in my double, in a bolt rifle you could even drop the velocity a little more, they expand almost too much at close range, remember even the famous 405 Winchester only got about 2200fps with a 300gr. bullet]. Works very well and has even less recoil than the 400 loads I shoot.
The 9,3 is a great calibre, but so is the 404 Jeffery. And big bores are loads of fun to shoot and hunt with.

[ 05-17-2003, 23:49: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

NE#2

My original 404 Jeff sports a steel buttplate, no recoil pad and it doesn't need one. Shooting at 2300 for no particular reason except the round number.

I would love to add wit and wisdom to this conversation on the attributes or the very classic 404 Jeffery, but alas, my 404 is a poor example of any facet of the performance of the caliber.

Sometimes it shoots, sometimes it doesn't. I only get about three reloadings to a piece of brass before I can push the new primer in with my thumb. And the rounds in the magazine will usually feed, but not always.

I've decided to take it on next summer's dangerous game hunt in order to give new meaning to the term "dangerous."

But it looks marvelous, darling! Simply marvelous! When all is said and done, isn't that all that really matters?

My 404 was built on a Ruger No 1 about six years before Ruger decided to copy my idea. I had just 20 cases for the first 3 years untill RWS decided that they better make some more.
I have standardised on just 2 loads, a 347gr RWS softnose at 2200fps and a paper patched jacketed .410x400gr at 2080fps. Both loads are very mild and accurate to 200m.
Therein lies the versility of the 404. Two wraps of 60gcm paper makes a .410 jacketed bullet into a .423 paper/copper jacket bullet. Prior to loading roll the projectile between a pair of bastard files and it will impart a fine knurling pattern that will grip the paper jacket. I tried paper patching cast leads for a Rigby to .423 but the accuracy wasn't as good as the jacketed ones.

A small person can absorb recoil better than a large person IMO...

Load the 404 down to 2150 or 2200 with 350 gr. Barnes X for a reduction in recoil and plenty of killing power to spare..I have observed this load in action albiet at 2300 FPS on Cape Buffalo and I was definately impressed with both the results and the size of the X shaped exit hole on the far side...A lady hunter.

Actually Ray, we just say we can. In actuality, certain rifles make me feel like I'm riding the business end of a bullwhip...

Never shot one, but recoil cant be too bad as George Caswell has stated he prefers the 404 for outfitting a lady shooter going after DG, even in preference to the 375.

GA,
If your gun shoots sometimes and not others or has any problems it needs a doctor and to use it on dangerous game as is could possibly put you into the same catagory, HEY DOC, I BEEN GORED Don't do it..

When you hunt dangerous game, you are inviting danger, it can and does happen, and fortunately not often, but those who scoff at it are either inexperienced or just plain poorly bred.

It happens when you least expect it, so one should always have in the back of his mind that this can go bad...I'm not advocating fear, just intelligent precaution...

I had a black mamba chase me last year, I never saw it, but that's another story with a happy ending, almost mine, but not by the snake.