I was reading a hunting report from a guy hunting western Tanzania who shot (according to him) a 180lbs leopard and a 550-600lbs lion on his safari! And I thought the dinosaurs where extinct! Considering that an imense lion anywhere is 500lbs and a real stud of a western Tanzanian leopard is 130-150lbs something just didn't seem to add up! So that got me thinking and I couldn't help but notice the proponderance of 180-220lbs leopard being reported as taken by clients and PHs around Africa.......My thought.....are most of the clients just dilusional, are the PHs optimistic liars, or are outfitters actually setting their scales to be 30-40lbs heavy?

For the sake of conversation here is a 158lbs leopard:



For the further sake of understanding what a 200 or 220lbs leopard must actually look like and the proposterous nature of MOST people's claims here is a 9'3" 190lbs leopard:



I'm not trying to be a butt. It just annoys me to no end when someone takes an obviously fine animal/trophy, but that isn't good enough! They have to "embelish" on the truth. It rather cheapens the value of the animal as apperently the animal in its true form wasn't good enough. Just my 2 cents.

Brett

Brett,

The area you mention probably produces some of the biggest cats in Africa but forget the body weight thing because it's just sales and chest thumping BS that means absolutely nothing.

A cat's body weight will vary dramatically depending on such things as when they last fed (and they can eat a hell of a lot at a sitting!) and whether they've been breeding lately etc.

The way to judge a cat is the way it's done by the record books which is skull measurement.

Anything and everything else is totally irrelevent.

Steve,

I totally understand where you're comming from on body size being the true equalizer. That said even in the most well bait fed of conditions: How common do you think a 200-220lbs leopard REALLY is anywhere? 1, 2, 5, 10 taken in the entirety of Africa on any given year? I just look at that 190lbs leopard and think...man I haven't seen many if any that stack up to that! Do you really think a wild lion EVER sees 600lbs? From my reading many male lions are 400-450lbs with 500lbs being a portly simba!

Brett

Brett,

I've hardly ever weighed a leopard and never weighed a lion so I guess I can't comment with much authority on that.

Because the weight issue is so irrelevent I reckon it's better to address the issue of whether some areas just produce monster sized animals or not and whether some monsters just crop up in areas for no apparent reason.

The areas you're talking about do very often produce giants. Leopard damn near the size of lionesses. Lionesses the size of big lions and the lions are simply breathtaking.

However, they are very well managed areas which I feel sure is one of the factors in this. Another would obviously be very good genetics. Because the areas are so well managed and the trophies so impressive, they're consequently expensive but no doubt you get what you pay for there.

There's also oddities that crop up from time time in less special areas and as mentioned, for no apparent reason. One of the areas I used to hunt in the Selous had a pride of lions we used to see on a regular basis and just one of the females literally dwarfed even the males. She was just hucking fuge!

So I'd say, animals of larger than usual sizes are relatively rare in most parts of Africa (despite the claims), more common in a very few parts of Africa and claimed to exist more often than they do in reality.

At the end of the day, skull measurement is the way to go and there's no doubt the animals you posted will measure helluva big.

You also have to bear in mind that pictures can easily deceive. There's no doubt those two pics you posted are big cats..... but are they as big as they first appear?

One question is how big are the guys holding them? - They could be anything between 5 foot tall and 6. 6. Note one of them is no taller than the girl standing beside him. She also could be over 6 foot but women of that kind of height are relatively unusual.

Also bear in mind that a freshly killed cat stretches and changes shape fairly quickly if you hold it up for a while. (Actually just watch how a live domestic cat can stretch itslef out when it lays down as an example).

The leopard below is one of the biggest I've had a client ever take with me and look carefully at the body shape of the cat and you'll see it's already changed shape a little. FWIW, I'm 5 foot 7 inches.

Now that's quite a big leopard and as it happens we did weigh that one because the client asked us to.... I don't remember the weight but can tell you I'm fairly sure it didn't make 200 lbs.

I think the areas like the lowvelt of Zimbabwe or the Masailand of Tanzania are well known classic areas for large body leopards. I also think that most people know Masailand, Rungwa, Kafue, and the Save are great places for large mane lions. So where are the big lions? I don't mean manes. Where are the largest body lions and just how big are they? The the Kalahari, Masailand, Kafue, Luangwa, the Zambezi, the Selous? I'm not looking for outfitters to hunt with. This is just a purely acedemic discussion.

Brett

Brett,

I added comment and a pic to my previous post.

I can't tell you where the biggest come from because I haven't been to everywhere in Africa but I'd say that of the areas I know of that produce the biggest cats are in western Tanzania. (IMO) Those areas even put the lowveld of Zim well and truly in the shade.

Masailand is also good for big cats but they're usually very educated. A few years ago, I took two very nice leopards out of the same tree ten days apart and won myself two bottles of whisky by doing so!

Another place that I suspect will prove to be good in the fullness of time are the newly issued true wilderness areas in Uganda. There's pros and cons on that just now. The country has something like 28 CITES export tags but the GD are (usually) only allowing them to be used for designated (PAC) animals so the hunter has to take the cat that's causing the problems etc. However, it could be argued that those will probably be likely to be older animals anyway and therefore probably pretty good trophies.

My guess is that those areas will rewrite the record books in a few years time.

The biggest wild lion taken in Zim was a mainless male shot about 1996/7 by Andre van Eeden It was a cattle killer and Andre got his new bride to hold the spotlight while he stood behind her with the rifle . Anyway We weighed it when it was bought in to parks...281kg's How much of that was it's last meal...who knows.

I have seen bigger lions in captivity but never in the wild. Most of the 'big' males we take on the botswana border weight around 200kg's. and all comfortably make the SCI record book- most make rowland ward. That one of Andres ran about 27" and would have been no 2 or 3 in the record book...but it was no 'trophy' - I have seen 3 year old lions with more mane!

quote:

Just my 2 cents.

You must be off by a factor of two also. Maybe your scale is in kilograms instead of pounds.

That leopard in that second pic looks to be twice as big has the guy trying to heft it. I find it hard to believe that leopard only weighs 190 lbs.

Somebody's spoofing you!

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
I was reading a hunting report from a guy hunting western Tanzania who shot (according to him) a 180lbs leopard and a 550-600lbs lion on his safari! And I thought the dinosaurs where extinct! Considering that an imense lion anywhere is 500lbs and a real stud of a western Tanzanian leopard is 130-150lbs something just didn't seem to add up! So that got me thinking and I couldn't help but notice the proponderance of 180-220lbs leopard being reported as taken by clients and PHs around Africa.......My thought.....are most of the clients just dilusional, are the PHs optimistic liars, or are outfitters actually setting their scales to be 30-40lbs heavy?

Brett, you should see ....... the one that got away!!

A friend of mine shot what he said was a 180lb leopard in Massiland and took a pic in the traditional manner, hugging it. It look extremely large. It is full body mounted at his home and does not look any where near as large as in the original pic.
He shot it with the same safari company as the pic with the girl above.
I know how to take pics that make most animals look bigger than they are. I suspect leopards are no different.

eez,

It would greatly depend on the size form the taxidermist used.

Jeff

Brett - The leopard shot by the blonde girl (Mars Bowman), did in fact weigh 193lbs. Pretty rare, but it does happen. Obviously most weights given are estimates, but I believe most are grossly over estimated.

I did however actually weight two of the lions I have shot, one in 2002 from the Gwaii Valley is Zim. He had a 26 6/8" skull, and weighed 489lbs. Below is a pic of the lion.



The second lion I weighed was shot in the Save Valley, June '08. He weighed 503lbs, and is pictured below.



Below is without a doubt the biggest bodied lion I have ever shot. Unfortunately I was not able to weigh him, but I have him mounted life-size in my office, along with the first lion pictured above and my Botswana lion. He easily out-weighs the other two by a bunch, which is obvious when you see then side by side. My guess is he is close to 550lbs, hard to believe!

Our Leopards average 158.5 lbs out of west nicholson, Zim. These are toms that were shot before they fed. I hunted one tom that came to an Impala bait 4 times in one night, leaving 15 minutes after daylight. I, unfortunately was hunting another blind that night. This tom (caught on trail camera) ate an entire male Impala (20" horns on the ram) that night. Nothing left but skin, horn and bone. I would like to have shot him that morning

This one weighed (certified scales) 167 lbs. 7' 6" long with a 17" skull.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Brett - The leopard shot by the blonde girl (Mars Bowman), did in fact weigh 193lbs. Pretty rare, but it does happen. Obviously most weights given are estimates, but I believe most are grossly over estimated.

I did however actually weight two of the lions I have shot, one in 2002 from the Gwaii Valley is Zim. He had a 26 6/8" skull, and weighed 489lbs. Below is a pic of the lion.



The second lion I weighed was shot in the Save Valley, June '08. He weighed 503lbs, and is pictured below.



Below is without a doubt the biggest bodied lion I have ever shot. Unfortunately I was not able to weigh him, but I have him mounted life-size in my office, along with the first lion pictured above and my Botswana lion. He easily out-weighs the other two by a bunch, which is obvious when you see then side by side. My guess is he is close to 550lbs, hard to believe!

Aaron, that is one hell of a cat

I hope someday to have such luck for lion of that size-way to go

All the animals in the photos here look plenty big to me, no matter what the scale says!!

Re: photo of 190 lb 9"3" leopard.

A photoshopped joke. The shadows under the animals
paws and the shadow along the backline do not correspond to the background vegetation (the shadows should vary in apparent distance to the
background).
Also the "hunter" is either an unfortunate
genetic variation or his "hand holding up the
beast appears to be a turkey claw...

oooh manodiablo: You are a brave man for putting that out there. You're gonna get a lot of hunters who might beg to differ with you about that statement. I believe that leopard was legitimately 190+ lbs. You cannot go by shadows of an Internet transmitted picture.

I just saw that cat mounted in Reno, and observed it with two taxidermists who worked on it. That boy was the real deal. And by the way the woman in the photo is the one who shot the cat.

Let the thread continue, but I think you are incorrect in your synopsis from nighttime shadows.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

Below is without a doubt the biggest bodied lion I have ever shot. Unfortunately I was not able to weigh him, but I have him mounted life-size in my office, along with the first lion pictured above and my Botswana lion. He easily out-weighs the other two by a bunch, which is obvious when you see then side by side. My guess is he is close to 550lbs, hard to believe!

Aaron, what a lovely set of lion trophies, congratulations. Will love to see the photo of the mounted trophies.

quote:

...mounted life-size in my office...

Must have a big office---

quote:

Originally posted by Ahmed Sultan:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

Below is without a doubt the biggest bodied lion I have ever shot. Unfortunately I was not able to weigh him, but I have him mounted life-size in my office, along with the first lion pictured above and my Botswana lion. He easily out-weighs the other two by a bunch, which is obvious when you see then side by side. My guess is he is close to 550lbs, hard to believe!

Aaron, what a lovely set of lion trophies, congratulations. Will love to see the photo of the mounted trophies.

I too would love to see a photo of the mounts -- I'm sure everyone here would!

Moja - No, very small office just 3 lions crammed in like sardines! The big Leopard as you state was in fact 193 lbs, shot by Mars Bowman, with Jack Brittingham's outfit in Tanzania. Anyone who question's the validity of it can contact their office in Athens, TX. and confirm it.

quote:

Originally posted by manodiablo:
Re: photo of 190 lb 9"3" leopard.

A photoshopped joke. The shadows under the animals
paws and the shadow along the backline do not correspond to the background vegetation (the shadows should vary in apparent distance to the
background).
Also the "hunter" is either an unfortunate
genetic variation or his "hand holding up the
beast appears to be a turkey claw...

1. His "turkey claw hand" is obscured by the leopards leg coming over the top of it.

2. The shadows are due to the discrepency of angles between the primary light (assuming the headlights of a truck) and the camera. If you look to the left of the young lady and the leopard you will see the same "dubious shadows".

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Just my 2 cents.

You must be off by a factor of two also. Maybe your scale is in kilograms instead of pounds.

That leopard in that second pic looks to be twice as big has the guy trying to heft it. I find it hard to believe that leopard only weighs 190 lbs.

Somebody's spoofing you!

That's my point Will. If that MONSTER only weighs 190lbs (saying ONLY 190lbs is proposterous) and it does then what must the majority of the other 180-220lbs leopards ACTUALLY weigh??? Not what they claim!!!

Brett

Marc,

I realize you probably didn't weigh him, but how much do you figure that monster you shot with Gerard actually weighs? 150-160? It's a big cat!

Brett

Ganyana and Aaron,

Those are hellish lions!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by manodiablo:
Re: photo of 190 lb 9"3" leopard.

A photoshopped joke. The shadows under the animals
paws and the shadow along the backline do not correspond to the background vegetation (the shadows should vary in apparent distance to the
background).
Also the "hunter" is either an unfortunate
genetic variation or his "hand holding up the
beast appears to be a turkey claw...

Contact www.tanzaniaquest.com and tell Amy Martin the photo is bullshit...Let me know how that works out for ya...

Jeff

I have no dog in this fight, nor am I interested in having one, but as it relates to the leopard and lion that I have shot, in both instances they were actually weighed with scales in order to get an idea of their size. However, their skull measurements were what really counted, and their physical weight was just for reference purposes, along with the length measurements, etc.

Guys - Below is a picture of a Leopard I feel confident is 200lbs plus. This was shot in 2004 by a client of Richard Bell-Cross in his Kafue block. It's the all-time #1 Leopard from Zambia. Look at the head on that beast!!!

Wow! I'd sure be willing to bet he's at the very least in the 180-190 ball park!

Brett

Brett:

You're definitely onto something here. Because of prestige/credibility outfitters and clients often seem to go on the high side as far as cat weights are concerned.

I'm a fairly strong guy and when I see a PH or client walk right up to a leopard and pick it up...my first inclination is to think...that's a pretty light cat. (Of course that depends on the brawn of the guy doing the lifting too.)

To carry out a dead lift of 180-190 pounds you gotta be a pretty strong guy! The cat you're referring to in the 'Best of' video, weighed about 160 pounds if you really wanna know the truth. I would love to say it was a 180 pound cat but it simply wasn't.

Anyone who's lifted weights in their lifetime can draw the strength comparison when holding a leopard. You see lots of guys giving them bear hugs, with the cat completely off the ground.
Those are only average cats 150-170 pounds.

It's when you see guys straining and unable to even completely lift the cat, that you know the beast weighs 170-190 pounds. Those cats are above average.

Then there's a top category which I describe as a jumbo cat, like the one Mars shot and the one Aaron has posted above. Those are no brainers 190-plus! No doubt about it.

But I have to agree with you as far as spotty goes. There is a lot of embellishment regarding leopard weight, because of the pure and simple fact that it can't be challenged.

Brett,
Marrs Bowman and Alistar James (your second picture) are both a bit over 5 feet tall. Thus Mr. Spots seems a bit bigger perhaps than he actually is. I personally weighed a leopard I shot in ZIm in 2001 and although it was quite thin, it weighed 160 lbs. I don't know if we have any actual weight of any of our Mt. leopard we take in Ethiopia but I'll post a picture. They have to be approaching 200 lbs.

Rich Elliott

Brett,
Jason is about 6 feet tall. What do you think this big boy would weigh?


Rich Elliott

165-180...it's hard to say.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Elliott:
Brett,
Jason is about 6 feet tall. What do you think this big boy would weigh?

Hard to tell with the cat in front of him but I'd say about 195-205.

Seriously good looking cats there, esp that lion Aaron, amazing.

Moja - Talk about struggling to get one off the ground!

quote:

Originally posted by SableTrail:
Anyone who's lifted weights in their lifetime can draw the strength comparison when holding a leopard. You see lots of guys giving them bear hugs, with the cat completely off the ground.
Those are only average cats 150-170 pounds.

It's when you see guys straining and unable to even completely lift the cat, that you know the beast weighs 170-190 pounds. Those cats are above average.

I was a collegiate athlete and have seen the inside of a gymn more than once. I've been able to deadlift 450lbs for reps at times in my life (read not now). That said there have been 130-150lbs whitetail deer that are an absolute pain in the #$# to pick up when they are warm and jelly like. Even in my "reduced state of strength" I know I'm still stronger than 90% of people out there and I can't help, but think that a 140-160lbs leopard would be a chore to pick up....let alone off the ground!

Brett

PS. Aaron...How the hell did you get that lion on your shoulders??? I'm assuming with a lot of help!

Forget the weight because it's all bollocks... there's lots of nice cats here but the ONLY thing that matters is the skull measurement.

Everything else is just sales BS and chest thumping.

Arron, You're gonna get a hernia you keep doing that sort of pose!

Rich Elliott

I think there is a lot of truth to the comments someone made about how much the cat recently ate. I know my first lion looked like it was pregnant it had eaten so much. It surely had to have over 75 pounds of meat in its stomach.

My leopard I shot was 250 pounds!!!
I am using Obama rules here----if I say it enough, it has to be true

nice cats posted above guys