I am writing this post as I sit and reflect on other recent threads I responded to, thinking on how the Karamoja region will evolve with the re-introduction of hunting, and watching how my home fishing grounds (Gulf of Mexico) are being destroyed.

A statement in one thread that I think is definitely true is that we all love Africa!

But loving it is NOT enough. We need to nurture it and give back to it or else our kids won't be able to enjoy what we did.

Two statements/stories come to mind that Dad told me when I was growing up. The 1st was "Hell...I wouldn't kill the last rattlesnake" (don't remember the context) and 2nd when a friend and I were catching 100's of fish from a lake we owned and keeping them all for fish fry parties we had all the time He told us: "Hell boys this ain't the ocean!"

We as hunters...the true conservationists...must take care of and give back to Africa. The folks that have the infuence like Craig Boddington...for all the GOOD that he has done for our sport...should also get behind projects that provide security for black rhino, study age and pride dynamics of lions in all areas, and promote conservation projects in general.

We should see agreement amongst ourselves on this website that it is only appropriate to shoot mature and if possible post-breeding age animals regardless of what they tape or whether it is a first hunt. And there shouldn't be excuses made why it is OK to shoot youngsters.

Every since I returned from Africa this last time...I have been watching oil pour into the Gulf of Mexico. Summer is almost here and I am thinking about heading down to the beautiful Bays I have fished in all my life and wondering if they will still be there as I knew them.

I write some very cynical things on AR sometimes but I do it because I DO LOVE AFRICA and I want it to be around forever. And we as hunters are the only ones who do really care. Statements like "this is Africa and that will happen here" just don't fly with me. One thing for sure...they won't happen if someone doesn't make them happen.

We must be stewards of the habitat, caretakers of the herds, security against the poachers, and NOT just harvesters. For the old saying that one reaps what he sows is very true!

I write this thinking of my Dad's comparison of our lake to the ocean...him using the ocean as a symbol for infinity and now seeing really HOW SMALL THE OCEAN REALLY IS.

Now everyone can give me a good verbal hiding... !!!

Lane,

I vote that the best post of the year to date.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Lane,

I vote that the best post of the year to date.

I agree! Lane, maybe you can give some of us your suggestions on what we can do to HELP Africa, and maybe some of the things you do to help???

I for one try my best to help support John Jackson at Conservation Force, especially as it pertaisn to the Lion issues. Plus I would like to see more support for Dr. Paula White and her Zambian Lion Project. Are these the types of things you are referring to when you say, "we need to help"? Or do you have other ideas in mind????

I 100% agree with you Lane. I for one hope and pray Uganda stays on the path they have planed for the hunting sports in there country. Philip and Steve will be able to tell use more as time goes by and Of course Nigel and others.

I don't see how shooting an animal for bait is any less responsible than shooting a soft buffalo because your PH is inept. If an animal is legal to shoot and someone shoots it, I frankly don't have a problem with it unless it was raised domestically. Then I have a huge problem with it.

I heard a term once during my travels called "ecological colonialism" - meaning the white world colonized Africa once, now we want to dictate how they should manage their resources. Actually, I think I heard this in South America, and it applied to deforestation, but it certainly could be applied to Africa as well.

You can't dicatate ethics, but you can change the law. I would suggest if you don't want young buffalo shot, then we ban soft boss exports.

But then, what if I want to shoot a young buff for bait? Is that okay?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

Two statements/stories come to mind that Dad told me when I was growing up. The 1st was "Hell...I wouldn't kill the last rattlesnake" (don't remember the context) and 2nd when a friend and I were catching 100's of fish from a lake we owned and keeping them all for fish fry parties we had all the time He told us: "Hell boys this ain't the ocean!"

I agree, I usually only shoot one of most animal species. I hope there will be animals left for everyone to have a change at hunting in the future.

Now I have killed a lot of rattlesnakes, but they can be pest, there are so many here in Texas, but I would not want to see them ALL killed off. Even then, I have used the skins for belts and hatbands, they didn't go to waste. I have alway been a catch and release fisherman, keeping one now and then to eat.

Ledvm,
I think in the broader sense you are correct. We here on AR and other forums are prone to be humans. We all share in a passion that is tough to put into words, how can you describe those hazy mornings with that lousey nescafe, sore muscles. The anticipation that awaits every new day in the bush.

The natural by product is passion, expressed in many different ways. Take for example your diasagreements with Fairgame, you both share an incredible passion for the same thing but just express it in different ways. Neither one is wrong, your both correct, you just see the same thing from differing angles. He doesn't believe in hounds for leopards, you do. BUT...you both love to hunt leopards. What I believe WE ARE ALL guilty of is trying to "out Africa" one another.

Mother Africa will settle all disputes in her own way. Hunting countries will come and they will go. Zambia in my hunting lifetime will most likely close again and I truly believe I will in my hunting lifetime, sit before a safari in the Nairobi bar awaiting my hunting companys arrival.

We get into petty arguements and silly disagreements, when in reality, we're all pretty much alike. We all think our guy is the best, our country or GMA or hunting company or booking agent is the best. Bolt guns, double guns, cocking devices, woodleighs, Noslers, push feed, Mark Sullivan, PHC, Craig Boddington etc. etc.

Ledvm, Africa will survive us, but can it survive itself?

Good Post, it made me think before hitting the "post now" button

Nganga

Great post. I wish these sentiments were in practice in India 50 years ago!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Lane,

I vote that the best post of the year to date.

I agree! Lane, maybe you can give some of us your suggestions on what we can do to HELP Africa, and maybe some of the things you do to help???

I for one try my best to help support John Jackson at Conservation Force, especially as it pertaisn to the Lion issues. Plus I would like to see more support for Dr. Paula White and her Zambian Lion Project. Are these the types of things you are referring to when you say, "we need to help"? Or do you have other ideas in mind????

+1

I put my money where my mount is and support Conservation Force. I hope others will as well.

Aaron,

How do we find out about and contribute to Paula White and her efforts?

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
But then, what if I want to shoot a young buff for bait? Is that okay?

Why shoot as young buff for bait? Is it because he is more tender Or if it is cheaper, why should it be cheaper? Why not shoot a trophy animal for bait also??

Inever understood the concept about shooting bait animals at trow away prices. does it mean they are "less valuable" than a mature one of the same?

In today's world the value of animals versus land for farming takes precedence. It is hypocritical for the descendants of those who decimated the old Africa of animals to now lecture against the further loss. What we are saying is don't make Africa look like Europe and the Americas -- fenced, huntable populations only in restricted areas, etc.

Without the economic buffer / reason to "leave some for our children" how can anyone really expect developing nations to not opt for the plow?

Shaming one another over current situations seems as futile as bemoaning the past. African leadership, as it develops, will consider the economic benefit of hunting vs. eco-tourism vs. plowing it all under to feed more of their charges.

For my part, the glass is half empty and I'm pessimistic. That said, I am just a broke bwana-be-again without the funds many of y'all have to affect the final outcome. So, please keep going on real safaris (and I will continue with my blue-collar version, once I find work again.)

quote:

I heard a term once during my travels called "ecological colonialism" - meaning the white world colonized Africa once, now we want to dictate how they should manage their resources. Actually, I think I heard this in South America, and it applied to deforestation, but it certainly could be applied to Africa as well.

Interesting point AZ. Of interest to me is: where does all the money that hunters spend in Africa go? Who benefits from the daily rate, trophy fees etc. I know this has been discussed before, but, let's face it, hunters constantly decry, belittle and ridicule the efforts of others (the conservationists/bunnyhuggers etc.) when they give their money to support their conservation views, but somehow, when hunters do it, it is OK? African hunters have always claimed that THEY are the ones who REALLY support conservation by their dollars. It seems that now it is not enough?
The main problem is lack of habitat as the population expands into other areas, just as it is in South America! The other problem is poverty/starvation.
Added: Also, I assume that it is OK for the locals to try to improve their lot in life, improve their standard of living, enjoy some of the benefits of modern society etc?
Just MHO, Peter.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
But then, what if I want to shoot a young buff for bait? Is that okay?

Why shoot as young buff for bait? Is it because he is more tender Or if it is cheaper, why should it be cheaper? Why not shoot a trophy animal for bait also??

Inever understood the concept about shooting bait animals at trow away prices. does it mean they are "less valuable" than a mature one of the same?

Bwana - Not to be argumentative, but you should always try to look at it from both sides of the fence. Not that "young", animals should be used as bait, but in some places its nice to see some concessions made for bait prices. My 2008 Lion hunt in the Save Valley was just such a case. There were so many lions there, that feeding ALL of them was a real problem. In only 10 days, we used 4 Giraffe and 2 Zebra for bait, all of which was consumed by lions. I was glad the PH let me shoot some female Giraffe, and a couple Zebra at reduced prices, or I would have had over $10,000.00 in 10 days, at full trophy prices, just for bait!! Instead, I got bait for about $2,800.00, big difference!!

I realize its not this simple in TZ., but until you are the guy writing the check, its easy to be one-sided on the issue. As a client, booking agent & outfitter, I can wear all the shoes, and sometimes you get a different prospective when the shoe is on the other foot.

Seeing as turnabout is fair play, Dr Easter, do you also welcome African governments telling the state of Texas how they should manage their game animals?

in Uganda 75% of fees go directly to the local people 25% to Uganda wildlife ie. goverment. all meet not used as camp meat goes to the local people. the goverment is very interested and open to animal mangament Ideas from other people and it looks like there going to fallow through with some great plans for the future

quote:

Why shoot as young buff for bait? Is it because he is more tender

Brett - Anyone can contact Dr. Paula White at paw@carnivoreconservation.com She has just arrived in Zambia a few days ago, so comms will be in-frequent over the next 4-5 months, but its a project worth supporting in my opinion.

She is pro hunting, and supports lion conservation through regulated sport hunting. Please guys, provide her your support.

Thanks,

quote:

Without the economic buffer / reason to "leave some for our children" how can anyone really expect developing nations to not opt for the plow?

BNagel,
Properly applied...hunting brings wealth (foreign dollars) and meat to the community.

As far as farming goes...there is plenty of room for both. But where we fail is as the providers of aid: we just dole out food and call it good!



What countries like the US should be doing is providing education on farming "effectively" then it takes less acres to feed many. And then if an ele eats a little...so what he is worth a lot as a trophy fee which will bring money to our community and we'll just eat him one day when he is harvested for us by a hunter. The old saying: "teach a man to fish..." applies.

Then we see countries like Zim. that was once the "bread basket" of Africa now with tractors rotting in fields cause the new owners don't even understand how to start it. Here we need to be careful who we vote for in our own government as they (our leaders) helped ruin this country in years past.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Seeing as turnabout is fair play, Dr Easter, do you also welcome African governments telling the state of Texas how they should manage their game animals?

onefunzr2,

First

Then as my Granny used to say: "If you don't have anything good to say...keep your mouth shut! I'll take her advice here if you will!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Brett - Anyone can contact Dr. Paula White at paw@carnivoreconservation.com She has just arrived in Zambia a few days ago, so comms will be in-frequent over the next 4-5 months, but its a project worth supporting in my opinion.

She is pro hunting, and supports lion conservation through regulated sport hunting. Please guys, provide her your support.

Thanks,

Agreed here!!! I think her work is great!

Also support Dr. Jim Derr at Texas A&M. His DNA banking project has huge long-term implications for conserving and management of wildlife in Africa. He too is very pro-hunting and is trying to get involved with the hunting industry in general. e-mail him for info on his project. JDerr@cvm.tamu.edu

quote:

Ledvm, Africa will survive us, but can it survive itself?

Nganga,

Fairgame and I would probably be great friends if we knew each other personally and we actually PM each other behind the scenes of our bickering. So no worries there. I know we are on the same team!

Africa will NOT survive itself with out US. I think the proof is in the pudding here!!!

quote:

Added: Also, I assume that it is OK for the locals to try to improve their lot in life, improve their standard of living, enjoy some of the benefits of modern society etc?

Peter,
Here is an area that they need help as they DO NOT do what you describe above. Instead they (meaning Native Africans) tend to reduce the things that have been modernized back down to dust.

Not trying to be judgemental here at all. It is just simply the truth!





They need help in doing for themselves and NOT doling out food.

quote:

I agree! Lane, maybe you can give some of us your suggestions on what we can do to HELP Africa, and maybe some of the things you do to help???

Aaron,

Bigadier General Wayne O. Kester, DVM (past Surgeon General and founder of the American Association of Equine practitioners)...yep a horse doctor too!!!...had a very good saying when asked this question. He would say: "Just keep on doin' what your doin'...only do it better!!!"

I think you are already doing some good stuff.

I think first and foremost...we as hunters...must lead by example. I.E. as Bwanamich has eluded too in his posts in other threads...WE must always take the high-road as we are the ones constantly scrutinized. We must first police ourselves then support the projects that are truly pro-hunting and properly scientifically based!

quote:

They need help in doing for themselves and NOT doling out food.

no truer word has been spoken!

Lane,
Thank you for a great post, “spoken” like a true hunter and outdoorsman!

quote:

Originally posted by mcdjph:

quote:

They need help in doing for themselves and NOT doling out food.

no truer word has been spoken!

Lane,
Thank you for a great post, “spoken” like a true hunter and outdoorsman!

Exactly!! We all know the old saying about, "teach a man to fish". Its the exact same problem our Liberal/Socialist govt has created here in the U.S. Its not just Africa that needs this lesson repeated over and over, we do too!!!

RSA has begun to do this conservation, animal as resource not food. The only problem is the vast nature of educating native Africa. Sport hunting does not "spread the wealth..." very far.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Seeing as turnabout is fair play, Dr Easter, do you also welcome African governments telling the state of Texas how they should manage their game animals?

onefunzr2,

First

Then as my Granny used to say: "If you don't have anything good to say...keep your mouth shut! I'll take her advice here if you will!

Did granny also say, "Do as I say, not as I do?"

In that vein, have you as a vet, done anything directly to reduce the game losses from anthrax and rabies? I have not seen any of your posts to that effect.

quote:

In that vein, have you, as a vet, done anything directly to reduce the game losses from anthrax and rabies? I have not seen any of your posts to that effect.

In the big scheme of things...rabies and anthrax are NOT huge factors in game loss and are part of the nature.

I am involved in one park foundation as a veternary advisor and I collaborate with Dr. Jim Derr at TAMU with his efforts...actually I am one of the founders of his project.

onefunzr2,
What about the saying that "2 wrongs don't make a right"? I never said "WE" did everything correctly but that is NO excuse to let Africa go down the tube. And if you have never seen any posts from me on Africa scientific projects...you must not read AR much. Ask Aaron...he and I have had several debates on the subject.

I think Lane has a good idea here. Back in the 1980s, I got involved in a small conservation project in Zim that had some tangible benefits. After hunting in Charara and seeing several black rhino skulls that were remnants of poaching, I commented how much it botheres me when talking with one of the Park people before I headed home.

Shortly after arriving home, I got a letter asking me to support their efforts with rhino and elephant poaching control by donating to them 4 of the "AimPoint" sights. Parks wanted to put these on their rifles, so that they could see better in low light for engaging the poachers. They told me they'd track poachers to their camps, but that it was too dark to shoot well with only a small fire providing light. I bought the AimPoint sights and sent them to Zim Parks, with a note requesting they simply give me an update to let me know how they worked.

Later that year, I got a nice hand-written note telling me that they'd shot more poachers than the poachers had shot rhinos. Yeah, I felt like it was a small way of contributing to rhino conservation.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
onefunzr2,
What about the saying that "2 wrongs don't make a right"? I never said "WE" did everything correctly but that is NO excuse to let Africa go down the tube. And if you have never seen any posts from me on Africa scientific projects...you must not read AR much. Ask Aaron...he and I have had several debates on the subject.

That's no lie! Although Lane and I have dis-agreed on issues in the past, the lion issue in particular. I would NEVER question his intent or dedication to wildlife conservation.

quote:

Sport hunting does not "spread the wealth..." very far.

I suspect that is true, that is why I asked my question about where the money goes.
Peter.

quote:

I heard a term once during my travels called "ecological colonialism" - meaning the white world colonized Africa once, now we want to dictate how they should manage their resources.

IMHO...for what its worth...the worst thing that ever happened to Africa...to Native Africas as well...was when the British and others felt compelled to turn there colonies back over!!!

Now before my next hiding...let me tell a story.

In 2006, I was hunting in Chewore South. The Game Scout we had there was a fellow called Kallimanjeta (sp??? I'm guessing). He was a very nice fellow.


Him on the left.


He even let my buddy shoot his AK.

Anyway we got to be friends enough that he talked candidly with us.

On the last day, he was writing on my license and he had beautiful handwriting, he did some math calculating something competently, and he spoke and wrote decent english and he was very easy to get along with.

But it was his handwriting that I was taken back with. I ask him: "Kallimanjeta...where did you learn to write so pretty?" He said: "Lane...when I was child, Smith's government sent us to school and educated us. There was medical care available to us as well. Now my kids are illiterate and several have died from childhood diseases. Zimbabwe is not a good place to live."

That is how I can make the above statement with a straight face.

Back in the late 80's, I was hunting on a private ranch near the Mozambique border for sable and bushbuck. The landowner turned me loose with one of his trackers and we hunted alone. After several days the tracker opened up to me and was very candid. He told me his family lived in Mozambique and that he was working on this ranch to support them. Mozambique had kicked out the Portugese and were now infighting. I asked why he didn't work in Mozambique. He said that there are no jobs, no food and no school for the kids. I asked why that was. His answer "There are no white men there!"

I have never forgotten that.

465H&H

Quote: "Sport hunting does not 'spread the wealth'... very far."

If you're talking about the money brought into Africa by sport hunters, and who it goes to, then I beg to differ with you on that.

The money that flows from Americans and other foriegn hunters to business people in Africa like PHs, lodge owners, and hunting concession owners gets spread into many areas of the ecomomy. That's right, all these people are business men and women, and they are also consumers. The sport hunting industry is a large industry in Africa, particularly in South Africa.

So lets talk about a typical hunter going on safari to South Africa. If he or she books a flight on United, they're actually flying to South Africa on an SAA jet, right? SAA gets most of the money from that ticket, and SAA is a South African company. They might spend a night at Afton Guest House - again, a South African business. Then they go to the hunting area, and the money the hunter pays to their PH for the safari gets divided between the PH, the lodge owner and the land owner where they're hunting, through accommodation fees and trophy fees. (The lodge owner gets a percentage of the daily rate, and the land owner gets a percenatge of the trophy fees the PH charges.) All of these people probably have native South Africans working for them, whether they are trackers, laborers, cooks, maids, or whatever. So your money is helping to support all these people, and all these people are consumers who go and spend their money on food, clothes, household goods, vehicles, fuel, etc. So again, our money finds its way to many areas of the economy over there, and does not just stay inside the hunting industry.

Aside from South Africa, if countries like Uganda continue to develop their hunting opportunities for sportsmen, hunters will bring their money, and that money will get spread around outside of the hunting industry.

My college degree was in Business Economics, so I'm not talking completely out of my butt on this subject.

I agree with Molepoloe.
To convey this thought to Tanzania. Together with what Molepoloe said a large amount of money does go directly to the Game Department (about $19 mil), what happens to it is another debate, but to start I would say the average life of a Gov’t vehicle is 3 years!

I do not own a company but I know each hunting company contributes in some way to conservation and the hunting area no matter how small, the “bigger” company’s with anti-poaching and community development etc.. Will run into over a hundred thousand dollars, that is way over the required amount. Why? I don’t know, maybe because we benefit from the bush though tourists so we give back!

I know there are a few but, how much do the hotels and lodges, Photographic companies (they employ 1 guy per car), charter companies, airlines, the list goes on “give back” to the national parks and the other tourist attractions that they benefit from?

I don’t think the hotels in Arusha give anything at all.

Why are people always expecting more and more from the hunting companies? Not that I don't think we should give.

Thank you, Dr. Easter. I often enjoy your posts. This is a fine and thoughtful one...as are many of the replies.

I believe that part of the problem is that if one tries to remain well-informed, it is very easy to conclude that with the exceptions of RSA and Namibia, there simply is no hope for sub-Saharan Africa. Politically, and socially, everything that can go wrong, does. Zim may be the best example, but hardly he only one.

This is neither the time nor the place for a rant, but, just by way of example, any objective person who looks carefully at the AIDS situation simply throws up his hands in dismay.

My own conclusion: whatever can be done MUST be done by individuals, or small organizations. I can do what I can do, but no more. And I will. My bet is that damn near everyone else here on AR will, too. Will that be enough?

IMHO...for what its worth...the worst thing that ever happened to Africa...to Native Africas as well...was when the British and others felt compelled to turn there colonies back over!!![/quote]
Ledvm, we have had this discussion before, perhaps you don't remember? You assume that all Africans want is to be well off. Well guess what, some of them may want something else... FREEDOM! I know you find the idea that blacks might value this as much as whites do totally foreign, as if they were incapable of such a concept, but, maybe they are. Once you are FREE then you can start to worry about other things like personal prosperity. Now, I am not saying that ALL Africans care about personal freedom. Some I am sure would rather be slaves or be assigned inferior status in their own country just as long as they could eat the crumbs from their master's table. However, some do not.
They are discovering that freedom is hard. That no one else is going to do for you what you should be doing for yourself. Time is not on their side because the rest of the world is accelerating their progress. I notice that your "help" is aimed at providing help for animals so that you can go over and shoot them.
You and I will NEVER agree on this. Having said that, a more interesting question perhaps might be: Why is another colonized country (India) doing well (it seems) while African countries do not seem to be doing well? Having posed that question, it is clear that there are many millions in India that are NOT doing well. The "rising tide raises all boats" is NOT working for them!
Peter.

Mauser93,
If you think RSA is not in for the same thing as Zim with bobby mugabi you have not ben keeping up with the nes from there. There on the brink of implosion as we speek.

A fundamental problem with most of Africa is the lack of education, though education you are taught ambition and a want for something better, how many villages have any of you driven though in the bush and have seen small mud huts? Mostly of one or two room, out there the land is free the sticks, mud and grass are also free, why are they content to with two rooms?

Today my wife asked our house girl to clean the windows, she replied “but why when it rains they will get dirty again”!

The next generation will be better, But until then we are still ruled and governed by the last generation who were under colonialism and whom I believe are all interested in personal gain, or maybe not so at the very top, but I will say everyone in-between.