Folks, it's Saturday here in horrible, humid, hot Jacksonville and I'm bored. I've been thinking about the topic at hand for a while now and two recent observations gave me the impetus to post subject hypothesis.

Our esteemed poster Ray Atkinson (and others) posted wonders about how the 210gr Nosler Partition in the 338 kills {sic} "all out of proportion" and even out penetrated thge 250gr in some instances.

Ray also discussed how's he's come to be very impresed with Saeed's 375/404 (aka 378 Weatherby effectiveness as a killer round on game as large as Cape Buffalo and hippo, particularly with Saeed's "Walterhog" bullet that is practically the twin of a Barnes X.

I also had the opportunity to recently particiapte in a "hog cull" at my friend's hunting preserve in SC. For that mission I took two rifles, my 338 Model 70 with handloaded 250gr Hornadys (2675fps) and my 340 Weatherby with factory bullets of the same make at over 2900 fps.

I know my experiment was purely empirical, but there was a noticeable difference in how hogs reacted between the two rounds. The 340 seemed to hammer them more. Penetration for the most part was about the same, but exit holes were bigger with the 340 and that makes sense given the higher velocity of the 340.

The object of the exercise here is a leopard. As most of you remember I posted recently on what to use for the cat, given their succeptibility to shock (velocity), and most of you replied that if I was using a 338, to use the 210 bullet at 2950 plus instead of the 250 @ 2675 or so.
I just have to confess to you all that in at least three calibers (25, 30 and 33) the Weatherby calibers, especially with Nosler Partitions that afford you penetration AND rapid expansion and Hornadys too, seem to put game down with more authority. Animals ranged in size from a 120lb to around 750. I think Roy Weatherby was on to something, but then again as you all know, I'm just a "tad" biased to that brand thoughts? jorge

Jorge,
It can work both ways and mostly depends on matching bullet AND velocity to the game you are hunting...

I like the 210 gr. Nosler .338 bullet on Leopard because it does a lot of internal damage at that high velocity on a light bodied animal, BUT does not destroy the skin as it normally leaves a nickle size exit hole, very important on Leopard....Leopard shot with the 250 gr. Nosler will normally make a lot of tracks before they die, say a 100 yard dash, as a rule before expiring as that tough bullet is slow to expand, however it does kill them..I think it is better suited to larger animals but then I would opt for the wonderful 300 gr. Woodleigh RN and solids for the larger stuff and am presently playing with some Northfork cup points in that caliber.....

That said, I would not discard my 470 or 40 calibers at 2000 to 2400 FPS for a hi vel caliber...I am very impressed with Saeeds 375/404 and monolithic bullets, but by the same token my 404 and 470 accomplishe the same end result with equal aplomb..

Again the advent of the monolithic bullet has changed the face of things dramatically...some of us old timers have had to make an adjustment, others refuse...

Jorge, there's no question that "speed kills". If that wasn't so, then a 300 Savage would be just as potent as your 300 Weatherby.......

I've shot a fair number of animals, mostly elk, with 210 Noslers, as well as 225s, and 250s out of a 338 Win. Mag. On a lot of shots, it's hard to tell the difference in killing power between these three bullets. They all work! But on tougher angling shots, the 250s hold an edge in punch and penetration. The 338 Win. Mag., by design, is a heavy-bullet cartridge. What the 180 gr. bullet is to the 30-06, the 250 gr. bullet is to the 338 Win. Mag. For all-around use, and especially all-around safari use, I wouldn't load anything but 250s in the 338 Win. Mag.

And yes, the 340 Wby. is more hammer, but it also kicks harder, and to me, it's an obnoxious cartridge to deal with. I'll stick with the 338 Win. In this case, slightly less is worth a great deal more for me. Some 340s are only worth about 100 fps. more compared to some 338s, and that difference isn't worth the extra powder and recoil.

A leopard -- even the biggest leopard that walks sub-saharan Africa -- isn't that big an animal. You don't need a specialized rifle, nor do you need a baby howitzer to kill one. What's needed is precise bullet placement that breaks down the framework and wrecks everything in between. It doesn't matter if you're shooting 210s or 250s out of your 338, nor does it really matter if you're shooting 300 gr. bullets out of a 375 H&H, 130 gr. Partitions out of a 270 Win., or 180s out of a 30-06. Bullet placement will rule the day no matter what you're shooting. Leopard do NOT require a specialized rifle. Whatever all-around plainsgame rifle you've chosen is the right rifle for leopard.

AD

jorge,

Don't over think this. Whatever rifle your using for general plains game will be fine. You don't need anything special. As for speed killing I'm sure that is true but the only leopard I shot that didn't move after the shot was shot with a 375 H&H and the Federal TBBC factory load. As Allen said "bullet placement"

Regards,

Mark

P.S. Please leave the Hornadys home.

Jorge -- If you haven't already seen it, you might want to check out He's In the Tree -- a leopard hunting video with Andrew Dawson of Chifuti. It is more of a how-to than just hunting footage, but it may help you get even more wound-up.

I understand that the .30-06 does a good job on leopards, so I am sure either of your choices would be fine.

Thanks for the reply gents. I just wanted to post this to foment thoughts and impressions from all of you out there with experience AND common sense. So far, the posts have not disappointed me and I agree with everything said so far. Hell when it comes right down to it my 300 Weatherby with 180 Partitions is just about perfect. I just picked the 338 cause the wife gave it to me, it's very accurate and the 24" barrel makes it a little handier in the leopard blind. And yes the 340 does have a nasty, sharp recoil, but man Allen, that Accumark IS accurate!

I've always stuck with one bullet for each caliber and as such have always used the 250gr on both the 340 and 338. I tried the 225gr in both rifles, but I can see no advantage to that weight bullet. I'll give the 210 a try in the 338 because of what some of you said and besides, part of the fun is deciding, right? jorge

quote:

sense given the higher velocity of the 340.

The object of the exercise here is a leopard. As most of you remember I posted recently on what to use for the cat, given their succeptibility to shock (velocity), and most of you replied that if I was using a 338, to use the 210 bullet at 2950 plus instead of the 250 @ 2675 or so.
I just have to confess to you all that in at least three calibers (25, 30 and 33) the Weatherby calibers, especially with Nosler Partitions that afford you penetration AND rapid expansion and Hornadys too, seem to put game down with more authority. Animals ranged in size from a 120lb to around 750. I think Roy Weatherby was on to something, but then again as you all know, I'm just a "tad" biased to that brand Smiler th

Just kind of curious, but isn't it not uncommon for lions to be around bait for leopards?

So my question is are both those rounds capable of putting a lion down, if he wants to eat you?
Seems to me they have a much more thickly muscled chest...

Or, do you just say,

"Mr. Lion, could you please wait while I go get my 375 or 458 Lott, and then try and eat me?
How about we work out a deal, and you just chew on me a little? No?"



GS

[/QUOTE]

Just kind of curious, but isn't it not uncommon for lions to be around bait for leopards?

So my question is are both those rounds capable of putting a lion down, if he wants to eat you?
Seems to me they have a much more thickly muscled chest...

sofa:

GS[/QUOTE]
Well, it can sure happen. When with Franc Coupe' in south of Zambia we had female lion climb the bait tree we were watching for Leopard. Lest you think we had to much of the mind altering local stuff, its on 16mm movie!

No lions where I'll be hunting in the Lowveldt of Zimbabwe. Besides, a 338 with either bullet will handily kill a lion. jorge

Seems to me someone here climbed into a blind, at night, to find out about 4 feet behind them was one lion, out of a pride.

Another mentioned the walk OUT, after shooting the leopard, was not fun, due to a pride of lions, out hunting the area.

AH: I have little doubt a female lion cub would go up the tree, and, where a cub is, so are mom, and her sisters, and dad. Lions don't take kindly to people, or other animals attacking their cubs. Mother instinct, and all that.

I think Ray also has managed to nearly step on a female lion, and did a rather protracted Samba with her, until she finally walked off, with tail in the air, like she didn't care.


I guess my question in Africa would be, isn't it a very good place to be prepared for the worst?

So, I guess my question for Jorge is, will those rifles stop a lion, or a couple of em, etc. in the same area you are hunting?

So, perhaps, a 375 or 404 or 416 might be a better choice? I don't see baiting, and taking at night leopard, as a low risk hunt...

GS

Jorge,

I think that a leopard which is gut shot with a 30-378 Weatherby will have less energy in him for a charge than a leopard that is gut shot with a 30-06.

But the chance of gut shooting a leopard with a 30-06 is lower than the chance of gut shooting one with a 30-378.

GS: YOu didn't read my post? NO LIONS AROUND.NO CHANCE OF LIONS AROUND and a 338 will kill ANY lion as will the PH's 470 NE double. I'm only using the 338 because my wife gave it to me otherwise, I'm perfectly comfortable shooting leopards...or lions on bait out of a blind with a 300 Weatherby.

500Grains, point well taken......but not with me, I love the feel of heavy recoil in the morning . If my 338 likes the 210 Noslers, I'll go with those, otherwise, I'll stick with the game plan and use the 250s. jorge

Jorge,

I like the high end of the velocity game on the high strung nervous system of a leopard...

.338 210 grs
.300 Wby. 180 grs.

your call.... both great medicine


Mike

Jorge..I leave town for awhile and you start on the Leopard hunt thread?? Just teasing. I bet your 300 weatherby knocks that leopard stone cold dead! Remember that big one they call "road warrior" is waiting for you! His track awaits you!

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I will be the odd one out here and state categorically that speed does not kill !

Why ?

Lets make everything equal and change only velocity. For this we cannot use expanding or frangible projectiles because their behaviour is velocity dependent.

So if we take a 30 caliber non frangible, non expanding solid and fire it at two commonly used velocities of say 2500 fps and the other say 3200 fps wich one will be the better "killer" or give the "better wound" in a uniform target.

The wound tracts would look excatly the same and the killing ability would be exactlty the same.

or alternately: We can keep velocity equal say 3200 fps but change bullets, so we now shoot a solid non frangible non expanding bullet in the Weatherby and do the same with the Hornady bullet, which would now give the bigger wound.... velocity had nothing to do with it.

So speed does not kill, Projectiles kill !

Projectile construction is what kills. The higher velocity shot on Jorge's Hornady gave a bigger reaction because of what happened to that bullet at the higher velocity. The magnitude of wounding capacity of hunting projectiles are construction dependent. If it expands or fragments you get bigger wounds.

I can but refer to the editorial in the Journal of Trauma Vol 20 no 12:

"The idolatry of velocity, or lies, damn lies and ballistics "

The author warns prospective expert witnesses of falling into the speed kills trap !

The Iron Buffalo has told me so.
Choose the right projectile for the speed and speed does indeed kill better and wound better and penetrate just as deeply.

Besides, when all is said and done the carcass will be a little tiny bit warmer with the faster bullet.

Within reasonable parameters, Jorge is on to something here. Alf is just playing devil's advocate here, again.

Well, Allen made a very good point that if speed wasn't a contributor to kills, then the 300 Savage would be all the 30 cal we need. In *MY* experience, speed does add a significantly to a rapid kill. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
GS: YOu didn't read my post? NO LIONS AROUND.NO CHANCE OF LIONS AROUND and a 338 will kill ANY lion as will the PH's 470 NE double. I'm only using the 338 because my wife gave it to me otherwise, I'm perfectly comfortable shooting leopards...or lions on bait out of a blind with a 300 Weatherby.

500Grains, point well taken......but not with me, I love the feel of heavy recoil in the morning . If my 338 likes the 210 Noslers, I'll go with those, otherwise, I'll stick with the game plan and use the 250s. jorge

No, darling, I was writing my post, while you were posting yours. 338 works on lion?

Each to their own. No elephant in the area? No buffalo?
GS

Speeds effect is dependent upon target composition, and bullet placement. Your light bullets, and a lions thick chest muscles for a frontal shot, with an expanding bullet, don't make me want to drop a 458 Lott, and grab your little rifles.

What other dangerous game is in the area?

s

.

Alf,
Really cutesy, eh? So you admit that Bill Clinton did not have sex with Monica?

Could you now define the word "is" for us please. Bill failed horribly at it, maybe you could do better.

BTW, I was once driving home after a week of back to back 16 hour work days. 20 miles from home, at 1 AM, a little old lady or teenage girl (very similar in this situation) saw me weave across the yellow line a tad while I was adjusting the radio. The idle bitch then tailgaited me for 20 miles. Just before I got to my house, I was acutely aware of having been followed, so I whipped into a golf course parking lot, then quickly back onto the road and started following the tailgaiter.

She, for lack of anything more fun to do, had been calling the cops on me, for presumed drunk driving. So the cops pulled me over just as soon as I got on her tail.

She, on her cell phone to 911, claimed that I had nearly side-swiped a car two miles back. I told the cops it was a lie. She had driven on down the road after the cops pulled me over.

They did the field sobriety test on me, and I told them, "Go ahead, make my day and give me a breathalyzer test!" with a bit of anger in my voice. They sheepishly bugged off.

There are some crazy women on the roads at 1 AM. Probably the ugly ones that did not get picked at closing time.

That is the only time I have been pulled over for "erratic driving." The cops know who the woman is, but I don't.

Hunting is like road accidents,its not the speed that kills but the sudden stop,( rapid transfer of concentrated energy and dissipation of energy into another medium)
Nor does the speed need to be excessive,just adequate.

Woodjack,
An ugly woman at 1 AM is like a road accident too!

Jorge,
Your title for this thread says it all. Very concise.

.

I swear we're entering the dark ages of ballistic thought and understanding. To say that velocity has no effect on killing power is to defy known physical laws.

If you double a bullet's weight, you double it's energy. If you double a bullet's velocity, you quadruple its energy.

Yes, bullets do the killing, but bullets kill not only by penetration through vital tissue, but also by energy-transfer. That's why soft-point bullets are designed to open up -- to better transfer energy.

Shoot a jug full of water with a 30 cal. M1 carbine at 100 yds, then shoot an identical jug with a 30-06, and you'll have provided yourself with a graphic demonsration of energy-transfer, as well as a demonstartion that yes, higher velocity rounds displace tissue better, via increased energy deliver at target, resulting in greater fundamental killing power.

If this wasn't so, a 30-30 would hammer elk just as hard as a 300 Win. Mag. If this wasn't so, a 400 Whelen would be just as effective on buffalo as a 416 Rigby, and if this wasn't so, a 45-70 would be just as effective on elephant as a 458 Lott.

Since we know that the above sited examples are not true, with all other things being equal, including bullet selection, that leaves just one variable on the table that makes the difference between all of these cartridges, and that's VELOCITY.........

AD

Alf,
This is some very interesting stuff, from the Military-Industrial-Science Complex funded studies, no doubt. NASA? Ray Atkinson?

I don't recall coming across that one in MacPherson. It agrees with the Iron Buffalo tests.

The same solid Flat nose bullets at velocities of 2000 fps, 2300 fps, and 2500 fps impact gave the same straight line penetration. However water was flung higher, boards broken in half and ejected from the apparatus, etc. (more damage/better wounding), with the higher speed bullet.

A temporary cavity may be of no consequence in ordnace gelatin, but it may well be a force that causes more bleeding or even more broken bone in a game animal.

It is bound to make a louder smacking noise when it hits the critter, and the dead critter will have its temperature raised a fractional degree higher. This will not spoil the meat, just a better start toward killing and grilling.

.

Alf: You are so wrapped up in your theory that you either can't or won't try to understand what some of us are trying to say. If you can convince me that a 300 Savage with a 180gr Partition kills as effectively as any of the 300s or even the 06, your argument might make more sense.

Incidentally, the MV of the 5.56 had almost nothing to do with it's adaptation by the Armed Forces. It was a matter of being able to carry substantially more ammo afield, the lower recoil ameliorated bad marksmanship and long range volley fire was a thing of the past. Lastly, more than one reputable source validates the succecptibility of cats to shock through high velocity calibers. . jorge

Alf, I'm astounded........

AD

.

Alf how about I put you in the vehicle of your choice. What speed do you want to hit the brick wall at? Oh wait I can choose the speed because speed has no effect!

.

Like I said Alf, you just DON'T GET IT. Does the phrase "all things being equal" not make sense to you?? Using your bear medicine round there of the 45/70 , if you take the same bullet and raise the velocity to say 2150 fps will it have more effect? You bet your ass it will. Now if you can't comprehend that, you are welcome to start your own thread and label it "Speed does not kill" no matter what bullet you use. jeez. jorge

Why do threads like this always seem to generate such silly discussions? Can't we just stick to the topic? Which is a well constructed bullet at high speed kills better than an equally well constructed bullet at lower speed, when dealing with a 150-200 pound leopard?

What really kills is BAD LOGIC.

Trying to make a general rule, for a specific event, is a logical falicy. Hence, saying that speed affects killing ability, when in fact each shooting incident is based on one key factor, the target. Each animal has different characteristics, and, each animal is unique, both in how it reacts to bullets, and where it's hit. So, there really is no point in trying to make a generalization on the terms of the question. Each leopard is a distinct, and different animal, with personality, and actions, different from others.

Don't poke the cat, pissed off leopard

For the question to really work, you need to pick a particular type of shot, and then try and decide what rifle works for what situation.

In other words, discussions like this should be based on what organ, or target, you intend to hit, and how a bullet affects that kind of organ, or target, and, what sort of stuff is in the way of getting to the target.

Finally, the best test of this sort of stuff is to catalog the types of cartridges used, and how they affected the animal. We have a wealth of knowledge, in actual observations of shootings, and, I suggest the best way to evaluate these kinds of questions is not in the flawed logical falicies used, but in the actual observation of shootings on real animals.

Illogical examples I can think of. Ray insists that the 458, 500 grain bullet, in the above 2100 fps category, has a devastating affect on lion, better then using a lighter, 400 grain bullet, at higher velocity. Doesn't make any sense, given generalized bull 'logical' analyisis, but, that's what he's scene, over and over.

Likewise the tremendous amount of data about the effect of the 375 H&H on nearly all game, for hunting purposes. Another would be the standards required to stop dangerous game. It has been, and continues to be, the 480 grain 458 bullet @ 2150, the old Nitro Express 450 round. For some reason, it just works.

Now you can argue why this stuff works, trying to use logic, on a naturally flawed logical situation, all you want. But, the animals haven't changed much, and what works, still works.

It is rather exciting, since with these new computer presses, what we can use has changed, and, the results are not written in stone, because enough information hasn't been gathered, but, patterns are starting to come around.

On cape buffalo, from Saeed's shooting, and Ray's observation, we now know flat nose bullets kill very effectively. Is this new? Sort of, only because we've never been able to push a flat nosed bullet to the speeds he's using, and have them stay together.

Next, we need to know what the targets are he is hitting on the buffalo, to determine why it's being so effective.

GS

.

John S, what can I say? Your ability to capture the orginal intent of this thread clearly escapes some on this forum. Suffice to say, the folks here who understood the premise of my original query and answered accordingly are the ones I generally learn from. Yor post was right on the money. jorge

RIP,
I would take it kindly if you and Alfie would leave me out of this stupid conversation!

Ray,
You are properly excused.
I was just rambling with Alfie, because that is obviously what he wants to do with this thread. He CAN be cantankerous. I would say he has finally qualified for full blown curmudgeon status with this latest outburst.

Really he is saying the same thing as Jorge, but in the fashion of Bill Clinton defining the meaning of the word "is."

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:


If we shoot projectiles at 10,000 fps they vapourise on impact with skin and cause very little penetration at all. So Speed in this instance does not kill.

You have documentation of this?