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| One of Us |
When having iron sights installed on your DGR do you opt for the longest possible distance between front and rear sigts? {getting the longest possible sight picture} Is there a preference in regards to this as far as Dangerous Game goes? Thoughts? | ||
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One Of Us |
I can't answer your questions directly, but i coincidentally measured mine a couple of day ago and happen to remember that they were 18&3/8" from front bead to the rear V. That's on a 25.5" DR. | |||
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| One of Us |
Thats pretty close to what I have on my .404J | |||
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one of us |
It all depends. Depends on your eyesight, and whether you can see all three at the same time. From an accuracy standpoint it is better to have them as far apart as possible, but personally I think this is a bunch of hooey. A DGR is supposedly a short range rifle and how far apart the sights might be is irrelevant. My front sights (big white beads) are a big blur but it is good enough at 25 yards, as they are, along with a shallow V rear, as accurate as I can hold them anyway. The peep sights are touted as God's gift to accuracy but I find them slow and disconcerting. The closer they are together the easier they are to see both in focus at the same time, which is what John Taylor, my father, discussed long ago.  Taylor also liked peeps but that is where he and I depart company.  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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One of Us |
Maybe with young eyes the open rear sight can be pulled closer to the receiver. But Will's right, eyesight is the greatest limiting factor. So far, standard distances of from 6-8 inches forward of the receiver ring have worked okay for me. That gives a sight radius with a 24-25 inch barrel of between 15-18 inches. Plus, I'm not quite so decrepit yet that I can't focus on the rear sight at that distance. And Will, I think your daddy was right about aperture sights on DGRs. Jeff Cooper feels the same way. They are really fast and they take the rear sight entirely out as a focal point. But for some reason--maybe because I've never seen one that looked right on a DGR (except the built-in pop-up job on the ZKK that I wish CZ would bring back on the 550)--I've never used one. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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| One of Us |
Hello, Your mentioning of not being able to line up three targets at the same time is the reason why the so called "peep" sight is a better, quicker metalic sight. However, on a DGR-double rifle, ranges being what they are, as in very close, you are correct that it does not matter all that much, but I would feel that the peep or ghost ring rear sight would be the quicker, surer sight overall. Peep sight quite easy to use, for your eye automatically seeks the very center of the circle and all one does is place the bead on the target and you are only lining up two planes instead of three, which you can not do without blurring one or the other. On a double rifle, there is not much choice but the shallow v notch, front bead, target arrangement, but with a bolt gun, a solid peep sight would be my preference. ( Now the fact that I mfg. metalic weapon sights has nothing to do with my feelings you understand!! ) To each his own and Favor Center!! dsiteman | |||
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quote: Thanks Will......and I fully agree. I don't care if it's for DG or squirrels.....I gotta see them first and I place the front sight about 1/4" behind the end of the muzzle.(see avatar) and the rear sight 26" ahead of the butt stock or recoil pad.....on my 20" barreled 6.5 swede the sights are only 14" apart.....and I can see thenm fine. Set the sights for your eyes.....not some formula. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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| one of us |
I shoot irons a lot...I like as much distance between them as I can get and the closer the rear sight is to my eye the faster it seems... Supposedly the human eye can only focus on two of the three objects so the target should blur I have been told... At any rate I can shoot one iron sighted gun about as well as the other as long as its properly sighted in... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| one of us |
dsiteman, It is not much of a problem to install a ghost ring peep on a double rifle..I had one that dovetailed a sight length into the rib and had a filler should you not want to use it..same for the standard rear 3 leaf sight it had..giving you an option...It was the best sight I every used on a double... I believe the peep or receiver sight is the most accurate and fastest of iron sights..For up to about 200 yards I prefer them to a scope. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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one of us |
I spitted my last buff with a peep at about 125 yards quite easily. If the old b*****d hadn't already been riled up, it would have been an easy, perfect shot. I like peeps, especially for Africa. Sarge Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle . . . for one hundred years! | |||
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one of us |
For iron sights, my vote is for a ghost ring. (28" sight radius)  Hog Killer IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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One of Us |
Does anyone make a peep site which simply slips on to the CZ dovetails? _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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| One of Us |
Hello Hogkiller, Is that rifle a Rem. 30 or 720? Always like those rifles for that action was plenty large enough to handle about any cartridge. Nice piece of hardware! What caliber?? Favor Center!! dsiteman | |||
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| one of us |
Dsiteman, Have their been any developments in ghost rings or peeps that make them just as swift to use when the light is poor? Rustam | |||
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| One of Us |
Hello, I can see where one could fit a ghost ring insert into a sight base on a double and as you say, would work fine. The distance between rear and front sight regarding micrometer peep sights is more of a mathematical function regarding sight adjustment for the rear sight. In short, a long sight radius is more accurate adjustment wise as opposed to a shorter sight radius. Not really practical in sporting rifles, but more for match type shooting. You will often hear that a rear micrometer sight is 1/4 moa or 1/2 moa, but the radius of the two sights,front and rear, dictate if the adjustments are exactly as stated. Somewhat of a hair splitting exercise, but for long range match shooters the adjustment of wind and elevation is critical for the shooters in Master and High Master classifications can hold their shots at 1000 yards close enough that they demand that the rear sight give them the same adjustment each and every time. 1/4 moa at 1000 yards is 2.5" on the target face, 1/2 moa is 5" and the X ring is 10" in diameter so if you are moving the sight and it brings the shot out of the X ring or worse 10 ring, that is not good. I have shot for many years now and started out with "peep" sights and just find them easier to use whether on game or targets. Favor Center!! dsiteman | |||
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| one of us |
quote: For what it's worth, here's my 2 cents on the subject. Unfortunately, the human eye can only focus at one point at any given time. What is happening is that the aiming eye is rapidly changing focus between the rear and front sight giving the impression that it is focused at both points. The focus should always be on the front sight - as this is the furthest point of the sight radius from the shooter. The target can be a slight blur as is the rear sight but to a lesser extent. Rustam | |||
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| One of Us |
Hello RHB, Yes, there is a system where the front sight glows and the rear sight "ghost ring..." aperture also glows and it is quite easy to pick up on in dark conditions. There are a few military/leo sight mfg's out there that do offer those to civilians as well. The unit I mfg. does not offer that feature, but it is a matter of placing a radiating substance as in tritium, etc. to produce the desired results. It is that time of day/night where the light is dim and yet not dark that confuses this type of sight, but the feature is a good one if you are faced with very low light or dark conditions. For miliary, police type work, that front sight on the service pistol and pointing it at the "bad guy..." is critical. Fiber optics is another approach and currently working on same to be used with a match type globe front sight. As you probably know, fiber optic material can be had in about any color and smaller diameter than a human hair or .002" so there are a lot of things you can do regarding sights. Probably more than you ever wanted to hear but one of my favorite topics. Favor Center!! dsiteman | |||
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| One of Us |
Hello Wink, I am not aware of any one at this time mfg. for the CZ, but is being done for the Ruger Model 77 dovetail receiver. (See Brownell's Catalog for item I mentioned) The sight I mfg. could be reverse engineered to match up with the CZ, but just have not had the time to do for all the variety of rifles out there on the market. Those folks making for the Ruger would have little difficulty in modifying there unit to work on a CZ. Favor Center!! dsiteman | |||
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| one of us |
I have a peep on my 458 Lott for work and that seems to be the ticket for me. It's by a large margin better then open sights and removes much of the "double focus" issue when using conventional open sights. When I look through the hole in the peep and can see the front sight it's on! This is also about the maximum spread between front and rear sight you can manage without adding some bizzaro specail extensions for the peep. | |||
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| one of us |
quote: On the contrary. That was an interesting note on modern peep sights. If you have a website may I have the link to it, please? Thanks. Rustam | |||
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| One of Us |
Hello RHB, If you would send me a PM including your e mail location I will forward to you some additional data for your viewing. My sight is derived from the M1/M14 U.S. Service Rifle rear sight and adapted to M16/AR15, Rem. 700's and Marlin lever guns(big bore versions, not the 94 series) I do not have a web site, but would be glad to send you photos, full descriptions, design notes, etc. if desried. I install either a National Match hood aperture for serious long range shooting or a very large ghost ring aperture for CQB/urban warfare. Works very well and as others have mentioned, you can hold very tight groups/hits out to the 200 meter mark with ease. Thanks for the kind remarks and inquiry. Favor Center!! dsiteman | |||
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| one of us |
RHB, The "Ghost" peep will work in any light, I have used it at night for culling.. According to the articles that I have read in many shooting magazines, L.E. training, and Military training, the human eye can focus on two objects, and the target should be a haze..for what its worth. As to the CZ, both Jim Brockman and Talley make a peep for the Talley bases and the CZ or the CZ bases can be modified for a Talley ring and pop up peep, depending on the year I think...I had my CZ 404 Jefferys fitted with Talley rings and Brockmans pop up peep, it was very nice indeed. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| one of us |
Dsiteman, PM on it's way. Thank you. Rustam | |||
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| one of us |
Ray, Just out of curiosity, what is the diameter of the ghost sight you have used for night culls? Even an approximate value will do. Thanks. Rustam | |||
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One of Us |
A folks...the human eye can only focus on what distance at a time...even a difference of 6 inches is too much difference for the eye to have to objects in crisp focus. You always focus on the front sight keeping the target and rear sight a slight blur...very difficult to under stress but it is the proper technique. For DGR shooting there is going to be litle practical difference between a sight radius of 12 inches and a sight radius of 18 inches. It will more come down to aesthetics on the gun Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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| One of Us |
If the rear sight is too close to the receiver (too close to your eye), it will be slow to use and the rifle will look goofy. Rather than reinventing the wheel, find a nice old H&H or WR pre-war rifle, measure the sights and do it like that. | |||
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| One of Us |
Hey Dan, We agree... Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Moderator |
Carmelo this is caled focal length (front sight to rear) as a matter of mathmatics, the longer it is, the finer they can be aligned on target the further from the shooters eye the rear is, the easier it is to focus on both sights. (you are actually over focused on the rear and underfocused on the front, with perfect focus in the focal length ~ midpoint) SO, what's easier to focus on is also shorter than what will allow a finer aiming... which is why peep/ghost ring sights work.. you do NOT focus on the rear ring, you focus on the front sight, and you mind/eyes/esp/whatever, will automatically center it. that is a beta wave function, actually. I prefer my rear sight as far back as I can focus on it. I don't always like peep sights right back on my eye. jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| one of us |
RHB, As close as I can measure its about .125 ID or in effect take the disk out of a Redfield or Lyman.. To use a ghost peep one only looks at the front sight and the rear hole fads out of sight, thus the name Ghost peep....The eye automatically centers the front in the hole, so all you do is put the front sight on the target and pull the trigger. I use the NECG partridge with a gold bar face or a Redfield Sourdough if I can find one, they are discontinued...works for me. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Jeff, Thanks for this detailed explanation. I thought as much and your post and the others confirm my notions. Much appreciated. quote: | |||
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| one of us |
Thanks, Ray. 1/8" is far larger than what we use for target shooting and may well explain why the ghost ring tends to fade away. Rustam | |||
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| one of us |
dsiteman, The rifle is a Remington 30S, in 458 Lott. The sight is a Lyman 48 from the factory. Hog Killer IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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| new member |
Greeting all, Im rather new to these forums, but as I own a small company that designes and manufactures large aperture sights for rifles and hanguns and have done a bit of research & testing with regard to the physioligy and function of aperture sights, I thought I might offer some observations. The human eye can infact focus sharply on only one target or object at a time; meaning that you can only have a single object in 'fine' focus at any given time, and when using standard notch-post type sights your eye is quickly shifting focus between the front sight/rear sight and target to obtain proper alignment. Aperture sights simplify this process in a number of ways. The advantages of an aperture or ghost-ring type sights are: 1) The reduction in focal planes (from 3, Rear sight, front sight and target. To 2, Front sight & target) necessary to achieve an accurate, usable and repeatable sight picture. 2)The aperture sight provides an apearant increace in focal depth, and a significant increace in speed aquiring a usable sight picture. When using an aperture sight properly you need both eyes open, and one should make no effort to 'See' the rear sight at all, but keep your focus on the front sight and target. Your mind will infact 'See' the rear sight and properly aligne the front sight in the center of the aperture with a high degree of precision. The reason for this is that the aperture sight takes advantage of an Autotomic response or 'Reflex' of the human body to naturaly attempt to center any object seen through an aperture. A bright front sight will help with speed and precision as well, especialy in low light situation as this will help your eye to quicky find and properly align the sight within the aperture. Buck One Ragged Hole | |||
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