The shoot on site thread got me wondering. Hypothetical question...

If asked by a PH or landowner to shoot an armed poacher, posing no imediate threat, would you do so?

Me, no way. Really don't want to kill someone nor see the inside of an African prison.

-Steve

If someone answers yes do they get a discount?

if its legal....and i get paid a bounty hell yeah...............

Only if I could afford a full body mount.Meat probly aint very good.Although a rug might look cool if it was sporting a good set of teeth.

If I was sure it was legal and he was armed...Definitely. That bastard could shoot my 100 pound tusker or my 50" Buff that are currently awaiting my arrival.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve:
The shoot on site thread got me wondering. Hypothetical question...

If asked by a PH or landowener to shoot an armed poacher, posing no imediate threat, would you do so?

Me, no way. Really don't want to kill someone nor see the inside of an African prison.

-Steve

It's absurd to even consider shooting someone over poaching. Don't even think of it.

Besides the obvious legal ramifications you have no business shooting anyone.

Good grief!!

Sorry, that's someone else's job. I'm not a man hunter. A visitor in country where I have paper work out the waazoo to hunt animals and you want me to shoot a poacher on the spot?

Too simplistic.

Why would the ph or landowner ask you? Perhaps they know better!! Come on now folks, we are talking about killing another human being....

No, we had run ins with poachers (unarmed) and let the local game wardens deal with it. I do not see killing as a fair punishment for poaching.

The area we were in was very poor and the locals looked very bad. I don't blame them for poaching. I do not condone it, but I do not blame them either. If I were in their situation, I would likely be a poacher or game scout.

I've been in combat and have seen people killed. It's not something that is pretty. I go to Africa to hunt and see the wildlife I don't go there to end up in jail. Bottom line is that you are a visitor there, not the law or the military.

Mac

Steve

Very interesting question. I would not shoot unless we were in any sort of danger.

I think that from some of the answers it is clear that they know what kind of person we are talking about, but what if it was a well dressed white hunter who were poaching, would you do the same thing then??

quote:

Originally posted by cchunter:
Steve

Very interesting question. I would not shoot unless we were in any sort of danger.

I think that from some of the answers it is clear that they know what kind of person we are talking about, but what if it was a well dressed white hunter who were poaching, would you do the same thing then??

or a shirtless swede running through the forest???

Steve's question is a very serious one. In the 1970's when Kenya was still open, two of my hunting friends very discretely admitted having killed poachers, believed to be from Somalia. One hunter got a double, two with one shot.

During that era in Kenya and other parts, concession owners were required to use a fair percentage of their hunting revenues to support their private "poacher patrols". With the closure of Kenya, there was no revenue to continue.

Sadly, I heard that a few months after Kenya's closing, my PH and his driver were killed only a mile and a half from his home while patroling. They apparently had come upon some poachers and approached them with their vehicle. Both were shot while still in the vehicle.

I never made it to Kenya as the government closed and cancelled all hunting permits a week before my hunt.

I do not support or condone the morality of this act However, it should make for some interesting discussion.

Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanahile:


or a shirtless swede running through the forest???

Let us hope it never comes to that but Yes.

Only in self defense.
Yikes!

Only if his name was Mugabe and I had a good escape plan.

To digress and in general terms /

A poacher not threatining me at all / NO NO NO

My philosopy is that IMHO if my life is seriously threatened by anyone, be it an armed poacher or other criminal SOB vagrant or anyone attempting to take either my life, or the life of others around me, then it would be my humanatarian duty as a (private citizen) to take them out as deemed appropriate and prevent them taking out someone else.

I believe that in most ( so called civilised) Western countries we have a general statuate in law that states WE can and are generally oblidged to make what is called a (citizens arrest) or in fact to help any citizen and or any (law enforcemnet officer) should they call upon us for assistance when they need help in procuring an arrest or preventing loss of life or similar //

Of cource we need to make a personal judgement ourselves whenever a life threatining situation confronts us, but we do have an (obligation under the law) to do our best in the circumstances as presented to assist wherever possible against villians threating life and limb of ourselves or others going about their legal business.

Peter

If I was threatened yes, but that option would be exercised in any country anywhere..

If I am not being shot at (you will know it is an unpleasant feeling) no I would not.

John

NO!

I would only shoot back in self-defence, if weighing up the situation warranted it, and that is at anyone, not just poachers.


You have to be kidding. Some barely literate 23 year old PH tells you it is OK to kill someone and you believe it! How do you KNOW they KNOW THE LAW adequately! Also just because they can do it, when a rich whitey foreign bastard does it, for sport, do you think you will get the same exemptions? Also PHs do have a legal role in eg Zimbabwe and a certain level of trust (ie at one time it was possible for a PH to be armed if in a National Park eg a canoe safari).

Even if the poachers were armed, and it was fun to "go along" I wouldn't join in with the shooting. Not my business.


I remember reading an article once where the poachers used to target safari hunters vehicles. They considered the area "theirs" and when the outfitter moved into the area, attempted to ambush the safari vehicle including PH and client(s). I think two (not the client) were wounded but they got out of it.

Now if safari clients started shooting poachers, why wouldn't the poachers start shooting back? Ambushing safari clients would be pretty easy I think.

PS A white man killing a black man in Africa is always a "risky" thing to do. Not at all popular.

quote:

If asked by a PH or landowener to shoot an armed poacher, posing no imediate threat, would you do so?

This reminds me of the (was it Utah) case where a condemned man was allowed to pick his method of execution and he chose death by musketry.....(firing squad)

The local offocials said "where in hell are we going to find anyone to create a firing squad.....

They posted for shooters and over 2,500 folks applied for the job to shooting this condemned man.

I'm sure many of you remember this event a few years ago

IMO there's no way I'll shoot a human being over a animal.

But it seems there's no limit of those that will given that it's legal.

Killing people who aren´t threatening me or any of my friends ?? why ???

Too much tv my friends......

L

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

This reminds me of the (was it Utah) case where a condemned man was allowed to pick his method of execution and he chose death by musketry.....(firing squad)

The local offocials said "where in hell are we going to find anyone to create a firing squad.....

They posted for shooters and over 2,500 folks applied for the job to shooting this condemned man.

I'm sure many of you remember this event a few years ago...

Gary Gilmore. There was even a song about it in the 80s by the Judys (a local Texas band).

In self defence, yes, I would use as much force as needed. Otherwise, never.

Preserving wildlife is far worthier goal than most crimes that people get executed for by various governments. The only reason I would not kill a poacher would be a deep fear of prison. If, for whatever reason I knew that I would not go to prison, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Keep in mind that in Africa human life is valued differently than it is in Europe or countries populated primarily with people of European descent. Game scouts kill armed poachers on a regular basis across Africa. If it were appropriate for a game scout or PH to fire a shot at a poacher in a client's presence, I am sure they would do it. But I doubt they would offer the shot to the client as some sort of sport because their primary concern would be to quickly and safely remove the client from the area.

Anyone feeling uneasy about the shoot to kill policy regarding poachers should consider that any of us who have ever hunted on government concessions in Africa have directly benefitted from this policy, or all the game would have been taken by poachers a long time ago.

Vapodog, your refering to an inmate who is still currently on death row. I can't remeber his name, but he chose hanging because at the time, 2002 and the Olympics. The choices of execution were lethal injection, firing squad and hanging. Must have wanted some attention. The legislature has since narrowed the method to lethal injection.
Gary Gillmore was the last prisoner put to death by firing squad and that in 77 or 78.
But to answer the question, No I wouldn't shoot a poacher, provided he was no threat to me or persons with me. If I did find my self in a deadly force incident I would make for the U.S embassy at top speed.

I don't think I would consider it: not consistent with the standards I'd hope to have applied to myself if I were accused of some crime. I understand poachers can get desparate, and are willing to shoot whom they can if their lives are at stake. Prudence would dictate fighting in self-defense. Yet, it could end up that the poachers, with better facility in the language, could conceivably have the upper hand if it came to trial. Bottom line -- it isn't a job I'd look for.

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by Steve:

If asked by a PH or landowener to shoot an armed poacher, posing no imediate threat, would you do so?
-Steve

Unless he pointed his AK47 at me, or a member of my party, he's safe from me! The takeing of a human life to protect any animal is certainly not in my make up! If he treatened me, however, he better shoot fast, or he is toast!

If the poacher was armed I would chime in at the sound of the first shot from the PH. The only way to be sure that particular individual is never in a position to threaten your health or life is to eliminate him at the first opportunity.

Reaction is so much slower than action. If you wait for the other guy to make a move, you are already dead.

Say you let the poacher get away, and he ambushes and kills the PH, his family or even you the next day.

Everyone has to make up their own mind on this subject. There are compelling reasons to say "I will shoot", or, "I won't shoot". "I won't shoot unless he threatens me" is not a valid answer.

LD

The only poachers I've seen have been a pretty ragged crew and I'd be more likely to offer them some cash and food than take a shot at them. If I ran across the armed organized gang variety, I'd exit if at all possible and leave the fighting to the professionals. I'm on vacation for pete's sake.

Here's a picture of a full-time honey gatherer and part-time poacher we ran across in Tanzania. He had a bad eye infection, so we gave him some antibiotic eyedrops and bandaged his eye. This guy was living in a hollow tree and was in pretty rough shape. For some reason, I never thought I ought to shoot him.

Just as a side note to this conversation - and not intended to hijack the thread - suppose a band of poachers DID shoot at a hunting party and, in self defense, the hunter did shoot and kill one or more of the armed attackers . . .

What kind of deep doo-doo would you be in, and what would be the best course of action?

I'm kinda thinking of heading straight to the airport for an early flight home!

JDS

The poor guy is probably just trying to feed his family. We would be poaching too if we were in his shoes. I’ll bet it will be hard to find anyone who’s been to Africa that hasn’t broken some game law, like shooting near water holes or from the road, or at night. Technically that’s poaching too in Tanzania and other places. Now if they are shooting at us then we’ve got to defend ourselves. If they’ll just go to someone else’s concession. I appreciate the abundance of animals in fairly close proximity to hordes of African homes but it really isn’t fair that the locals don’t get to hunt. Makes me happy to be American where the animals belong to us. I know it can’t work like that there.

I would only open fire, in selfdefence, if my group was under direct threat. Otherwise NO, as I have no intention of sharing an African jailcell together with a bunch of local criminals, nor shooting someone just for the "sport" of it...

However, I would not have a problem if the Gamescout/PH did whatever they felt necessary. I wouldn't stop them from shooting a poacher if they deemed that had to be done. If that in turn ended up in me drawing fire, then I would do what is needed to protect myself and my friends.

I feel that ErikD sums it up nicely.

I´ve met people that have killed people in war and selfdefence situations and none of them speaks lightly of what went down, most have nightmares and symptoms of post-traumatic stress.

Not something I feel I have to experience.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
If the poacher was armed I would chime in at the sound of the first shot from the PH.

Agreed. I think the fact that the poacher (or anyone else for that matter) is armed and being fired upon by a nearby PH or game scout would immediately make this a self defense scenario for me as well. I also agree with the others when they say "Hell, I'm just on vacation"! I think I would have a certain amount of resentment toward a game scout or PH who opened fire on a poacher who was perhaps not being overtly agressive toward us. I would certainly shoot as stated above but I wouldn't be too happy about this becoming an element of my safari.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

IMO the thought of taking of a human life is not to be taken lightly. I would have no problem shooting in self defense, but would find it nearly impossible to take the offensive position. I'm talking here of the poachers. In a war, or combat situation, as a member of the military, that would be my job, and as such, would of course follow orders to take out the enemy as called for.

We have to remember a couple of years ago there was a PH in Zim who shot a poacher and is still in prison for murder. If he couldn't get away with it no one could.

In 1992 I was hunting on a farm 5km away from the Limpopo and Botswana's border. I was newxt to the game fence of the bordering farm when I heard 3-4 dogs barkiong next minute thi warthog cam flying past and ran inot a aardvark hole some 30 metrs from me and next cam the dogs they totally ignored me and I watched tham barking around the aardvark hole where the pig fled into.

I heard two Afroicans shouting and decide to hide behind a bush 20m meters away. The dogs were going mad most of them pavemnet specials and jack russel type size. The two Black guys came out into the open shouting at the dogs to ebcourage them carying a panga and each a spear.

They came closer to the hole and that is when I decided only 16 years old and obviously poachers that I saw to encouraged them to run by shooting two of their dogs infront of them at their feet with my 303.

If it was the Olympics I'm sure they would have set the new world record in the 100 m sprint doing it in less than 9 seconds.

Aniway 2 hours later I was back at camp and informed the owner he phoned the cops and two days later these two were arrested and deported back to Botsawna without the dogs.

Doesn't Tanzania have a shoot-on-sight policy which encourages hunters and P.H.s to fire away? It would be understandable since they seem to have a much more agressive set of poachers