peter
the reason why i diden't tought about recoil is , because the recoil is very subjective. i have tried some of those nice english doubles and i survived their recoil. indeed it wasen't more offensive than a light single shot 10 gauge shotgun with 2 ounce goose loadings!!! i have shoot and hunted more than 50 years of my life. only reading won't help. believe me even if i look coars and uneducated to you!! i have even studied many years at university
every single ounce of weight is important if a hunter have to carry a gun a whole day on his own shoulder.
the recent accident of PH gored had happened with a gunbearer which i presume was taught as gunbearer. i wonder if you have read this story it was mentioned here in AR for a few days ago?
of cours there are peoples which are not sensetive to the weight of gun and neither to the recoil, but i doubt if all the hunters are so? you are not suposed to only carry a gun of 10-12 pounds, you may need a box of ammo ,maybe a water bottel too what about a good hunting knife?and even more. if one can carry a heavy gun all day long and shoot it like mark sulivan do , then there is no objection,but frankly how many do so?
sincerly
Y E S

quote:

Originally posted by kayaker:

quote:

And kayaker - do you think Ganyana has more experience than Taylor and Sutherland? Tell me why all ph`s dont use 9,3mm rifles or 375`s as their stopping rifles??

No, I don't, although I am unsure how many head Taylor actually took. However I am sure he is a shit-load more experienced on this subject than 99% of the people on this forum...

To answer your question - because they are PH's, cleaning up the mess when necessary. That has been the context of this old tired debate since Moses played full-back for the Israelites...the recommednation is for a CLIENT or hunter who is taking a few buff, for which the 9.3/.375 class is highly suitable. For a PH who is shooting under duress at wounded and possibly incoming dangerous game, yes, a heavier rifle is a better option.

Besides most PH's don't earn that much and are likely to shoot their .375's way more than some exotic big-bore that costs as much a meal out everytime it goes bang...

Just let them argue. I don’t think that a European, American or others understand the difference of a client and a PH. Or the difference about hunting with (like a client) or without (like Sutherland) backup. And please understand that most people here have tons of more experience than you, Ganyana or Selby.

quote:

Originally posted by 9,3x74R:

quote:

Originally posted by kayaker:

quote:

And kayaker - do you think Ganyana has more experience than Taylor and Sutherland? Tell me why all ph`s dont use 9,3mm rifles or 375`s as their stopping rifles??

No, I don't, although I am unsure how many head Taylor actually took. However I am sure he is a shit-load more experienced on this subject than 99% of the people on this forum...

To answer your question - because they are PH's, cleaning up the mess when necessary. That has been the context of this old tired debate since Moses played full-back for the Israelites...the recommednation is for a CLIENT or hunter who is taking a few buff, for which the 9.3/.375 class is highly suitable. For a PH who is shooting under duress at wounded and possibly incoming dangerous game, yes, a heavier rifle is a better option.

Besides most PH's don't earn that much and are likely to shoot their .375's way more than some exotic big-bore that costs as much a meal out everytime it goes bang...

Just let them argue. I don’t think that a European, American or others understand the difference of a client and a PH. Or the difference about hunting with (like a client) or without (like Sutherland) backup. And please understand that most people here have tons of more experience than you, Ganyana or Selby.

Reading the posts after my own on this thread, I found myself laughing out loud. While I always knew that hunters have a good sense of humor,I still enjoyed learning it again. As a 375 lover how about a compromise? A 375 double? (yes, even I, can understand that a wounded buff getting up in close cover (my PH called it "vlei" where we were in Chirisa right after the rainy season) might need something that really will thump him -but good - and, yet, I do have to remind you guys that John Berger noted in his book about buff (Black Death) that he never had a buff continue on in a charge at close quarters when hit by a 375. He said they always flinched -and he had hit them in the face with bigger calibers at other times at close quarters . (head or face shot) (because of its great penetration, I presume, in my amateur opinion) (I hope my memory is not failing me and that I'm not quoting the wrong author.Fact)

I have to hasten to say after my last post that If I ever saw a buff in close quarters (I shot mine at a range of between 30-35 yards and saw him fully-or at least from his chest -shoulders up) If I had to do it again with a buff in cover I would still prefer something approaching a cannon!. Fact. (It's one thing to say things on the internet -and quite another to exchange looks with a buff on the ground. He scared me. Gee, I wonder why! BTW, I was often criticized by the lady of my life for giving people bad looks. I met my match with nyati.!

I would hunt anything on earth with a .375 or 9.3 but choose not to. IMO and it is an opinion based on only two trips and plenty of reading I feel a 375 is marginal but adequate for an elephant. But it is your money, if you want to use a spear go for it. It makes for interesting reading on the forums. But do not say that I am better off with one of my 375s than my 470. Hell I hunt pigs in Louisiana with my 470 with the same loads I use in Africa.

I guess as clients we should all either destroy our big bores or donate them to PH's since we are not competent enough to shoot them.

Sigh. Guess I will customize my CZ 375 and find a home for the M70 416 & 470 Double.

Yea, right.....

it seems this thread had become a thread for only one type of gun. well if one own a nice double in what ever caliber is and can shoot it fast and well, then what matters if it is double or bolt. the problem is with the guys that want the most strongest heaviest caliber and can't use it properly . it is all about. if a ph believes in one caliber and have killed plenty of dg with it then it is upp to him to decide and there is no law that says that client should absolutely do as a ph says!!! if a buff can die from a 9,3x62 it will surely die from a bullet from stronger caliber too.

Gentlemen,

I have received the following email from Harry, which is self expalantory.

Hi everyone,

Unfortunately, for some time I have been having trouble with the Internet… I can view the AR forum but cannot place posts.
Hopefully I will be able to get this sorted out eventually.
I am asking someone else to post this for me. I do still have e-mail.

I note that I have been embroiled in a controversial issue due to the posting by ganyana of a couple of sentences from something I wrote for American Rifleman’s September issue.
The brief posting is completely out of context and I will set out below what actually appeared in the magazine in a story about a ‘horse & camel’ safari in 1961.

Quote.
The rifles we decided on for this purpose was a Winchester .375 H&H. fitted with a removable scope, which I had acquired in 1950 as a gift from a father and son with whom I had been on a three month safari.
The .375 H&H would be used for procuring camp meat although unnecessarily powerful for that purpose, it would also act as a substitute should either of our heavy rifles be rendered unusable for whatever reason. We carried 270 grain expanding bullets for collecting camp meat, and three hundred grain solids in case the .375 was called upon in an emergency.

This rifle had seen a lot of use since it came into my possession, as hunters in those days often brought along a 30-06 or other light rifle and a shotgun planning to hire a heavy double from the outfitter.
I generally encouraged a hunter unless he had previous experience in handling a heavy double to use my .375 instead, as it takes a lot of practice to shoot a heavy double with open sights well.
Many took my advice and benefited from the increased accuracy and additional effective range the .375 H&H provided resulting in a very noticeable reduction of wounded animal follow-ups.

I must emphasize that in my opinion the .375 H&H is possibly the greatest and most versatile cartridge ever invented. It has adequate power, good accuracy, and the recoil is very manageable.

Today there is a vast range of very fine premium bullets available making it suitable in the hands of a good marksman for just about any hunting situation. My advice to any visiting hunter who will be accompanied by a professional with a backup heavy caliber, to choose a good .375 H&H rifle fitted with a 1.5 x 5 removable scope using mounts proved to return to zero.
He or she will make more precise shots at a greater effective range than they would using some very powerful and heavy recoiling cartridge.

I will also set out here what I said about the .416 and how I had come by it.

Quote.,
I would be carrying my treasured .416 Rigby which I had acquired almost by accident when towards the end of a safari in Northern Tanganyika with Donald Ker and Chris Aschan my fine Rigby double .470 had been accidentally damaged beyond repair.
I needed another heavy rifle in a hurry for my next safari and was looking for another double, preferably a .470. The only rifle I could find was a .416 Rigby at a gun shop in Nairobi which someone had ordered and not taken delivery of.

The rifle was built on a standard Mauser action and I was skeptical about that as the long Mauser action was generally used to accommodate the large .416 cartridge.
However it appeared to feed flawlessly when cartridges were repeatedly cycled rapidly and forcefully through the action as might happen in a dangerous situation.
I was also concerned about the bullet weight of 410 grains as opposed to the .470’s 500 grains, albeit the .416s 410 grainer had significantly more velocity, resulting in a striking energy similar to the .450, 470, 475 doubles.
I had no option. I bought it…with the intention of replacing it with another double .470 as soon as possible.
I might add here that over many years and many hundreds of rounds fired through it, that standard action never gave the slightest hint of trouble

I knew the .416 Rigby rifle and cartridge by reputation, but nothing prepared me for the performance which became apparent as soon as I began using it as a few incidents which took place on the first couple of safaris I carried it will illustrate.

The striking ‘knock down’ power, the incredible penetration with Rigby’s excellent solids, and the flat trajectory with pin point accuracy all combined to make this in my opinion, the perfect Professional Hunters rifle, it literally became an extension of my arm, and I must admit that I really got to appreciate the confidence those extra cartridges nestling in the deepened magazine box provided. There was no way I would now replace it with another double.

OK that is my side of it but I would like to address a few points raised by members of the forum.

There is no way I would try to convince a hunter not to use his own double… What I was referring to was doubles hired from the safari company, and which the client had never had the opportunity to get the ‘feel of’.
Actually during my years of professional hunting only two clients brought their own doubles.

I did use a .458 for one season while my .416 was being re-barreled in London by Rigby’s. However during seventy five percent of my career I carried the .416 Rigby.

No, the buffalo and elephants of yesteryear were not softer than those of today, they died when hit in the right place the same as they do today.

Perhaps some people do not realize that many clients who come to hunt in Africa have had very little hunting experience and my continued recommendation for using the scope sighted .375 H&H is mainly with them in mind.
There is no doubt that one can make a more precise shot with such a rifle than with an open sighted double or heavy bolt action rifle… and in my opinion that first shot is the most crucial.. on it will depend the outcome of the hunt, either a clean kill or a messy and possibly dangerous follow up.

In conclusion I would say that bullet placement is vital… and that applies to whatever caliber is used…. If you do not hit him, especially buffalo, in the vitals you are in for a very lively time in all probability.

I myself have pole axed a large buffalo bull with ..275 using the 173 grain solid bullet….but I have also seen on a number of occasions a buffalo absorb an incredible number of heavy slugs before expiring.
This usually happens during a follow up after the animal has been shot badly.

So I repeat, take care with that first shot with whatever caliber is being used…. IT IS ALL IMPORTANT.

Good Hunting!!!!

Harry Selby.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Actually during my years of professional hunting only two clients brought their own doubles.

Harry Selby.

Mr. Selby (Saeed),

Thanks for posting. It is amazing that only two clients brought their own doubles in all of those years of hunting. Times certainly have changed with the availability of affordable big bore rifles and ammo.


Regards,

Harrys reply says it all. A big bore rifle is more efficient than a small bore rifle if bullet placement is identical. But bullet placement is - of course - the most important factor of all. His statements clearly demonstartes this : "My advice to any visiting hunter who will be accompanied by a professional with a backup heavy caliber, to choose a good .375 H&H rifle fitted with a 1.5 x 5 removable scope" and "Perhaps some people do not realize that many clients who come to hunt in Africa have had very little hunting experience and my continued recommendation for using the scope sighted .375 H&H is mainly with them in mind"

This puts the whole story, and Harry Selby's career in proper perspective. I agree with him that the .375 is a dandy. I would take one to Africa if hunting with a PH and not an experienced big bore shooter. That said, I am in complete, absolute agreement with him about the .416 Rigby. I own both calibers, and enjoy shooting them.
1. Put the first bullet where it needs to go, and the story is usually over. With a happy ending for all.
2. Carry the biggest rifle you can shoot accurately and swiftly.


That Ganyana can sure get the pot boiling.

Rich
450 Dakota...
Big Medicine...

yes but is the 9.3 x 62 in a push feed Remington a better choice for dangerous game than a 45-70?
Sorry, winters coming, I'm getting bored.

only if the 45-70 is in a lever action!

Rich

Idaho Sharpshooter:

Dang it! Can't I put you 45-70 fanatics down, once and for all? Like vampires, you seem to rise from the dead of long ago and buried cartridges! Anyway, a lever action? What happened to the trapdoor Springfield? - not such a bad weapon in its day. (I would imagine that a charging plains Indian hit with a 45-70 rapidly lost interest in the fight)

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Actually during my years of professional hunting only two clients brought their own doubles.

Harry Selby.

Mr. Selby (Saeed),

Thanks for posting. It is amazing that only two clients brought their own doubles in all of those years of hunting. Times certainly have changed with the availability of affordable big bore rifles and ammo.


Regards,

+1

That was shocking. My eyes bugged out then I read that!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by TerryR:
yes but is the 9.3 x 62 in a push feed Remington a better choice for dangerous game than a 45-70?
Sorry, winters coming, I'm getting bored.

No, but only because Randy Garrett loads extra magical .45-70 loads that out penetrate all other cartridge/bullet combinations ever devised!

Brett

I agree with Harry's comments.Albeit that I dont have as many years experience as him, I am however a firm believer in the 375 and its capabilities - and it definitely is a great calibre for clients to shoot if they do not have the experience of handling big bore rifles.
I have owned a Pre 64 Winchester - fitted with a 1.5 to 5 Leopold scope for close on 20 years - and have had numerous clients use it on dangerous game - with good results. I have recently started using the 350 grain Norma PH ammo - and this has put the old 375 into another league !!

hi Mark
have you used Norma PH line 350 grain rounds in both soft and solid?would you please tell us about them little more?
regards
yes

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
That Ganyana can sure get the pot boiling.

Yep.
Took Harry Selby's comments out of context, and subjected Harry to the misguided vitriol of the double rifle gang.
Ganyana needs to pay for that.
I suggest Harry's choice of beer at Riley's in Maun.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

quote:

"During my 50 years as a PH, I have never shot a round with a .505 Gibbs, I have never had a client with a .505 Gibbs and i must say that I have never had any desire to exchange my .416 Rigby for a larger caliber."

Why did you have to bring the Gibbs into this? We're just sitting over here, watching the show, and BaBAM! Thrown on the field. That said, my experience has been that the big calibers are not for everyone. But if you will spend some time learning how to shoot one, they can be a lot of fun and quite an effective tool. In my opinion, someone who cannot see the fun and entertainment in blowing the shit out of something (anything) with a 600grain piece of lead at 2600fps, hasn't found the true joy of hunting. I can't tell you how many times I've replayed the video of my hippo erupting out of Lake Cahorra Bassa with what looks like 2 firehoses shooting blood 6 ft out of its nose after it took one from the Gibbs in the face. I mean, it's good anyways you watch it, in fast forward, fast reverse, slow motion, freeze frame

505 gibbs
is your 505 rifle bolt action or double? pf or crf it is even another matter to talk about too
yes

Mine is a CZ. My 550 Wildcat on the Gibbs case is on a M30 Remington.

Rich

600 grain@2600 fps is surely enough even for a
T-REX. once i saw a bear while fishing at very close range . at that moment i wished i had RPG with me. i was lucky he wasen't hungry

quote:

is your 505 rifle bolt action or double? pf or crf

It is a bolt action, controlled feed, just a CZ550, it was the only gun I could find or afford on short notice the first time I went to Africa. It has been a lot of fun though, It's fun to shoot whitetail and javelina with.

Recently, Ivan, I saw you and a client hunting buff. He had a 700NE, IIRC. And, IIRC, it took him five or six rounds with that cannon to finish a buffalo that, if he had been shooting a .375 and had drilled him through the heart with the first shot, would have been a cheaper safari. (I imagine those 700 NE rounds are a bit pricy...)

Mr. Selby

Thank you for taking the time to post on this thread.

It really is a thrill to have you as a member and posting.

More than you comment about the double rifles, I was struck by a father son- three month safari!

Heaven!

Will that ever be possible again?

Maybe with blazing fast internet in the bush we can stay out for three months and our clients/customers/colleagues/bosses will think we are in the office!

Hi YES -I have just recently started using the Norma ammo - mainly on buff (not on any other DG yet)and the ammo is too expensive to waste on plainsgame !I had a client (who is a great shot ) shoot a buffalo across a valley at about a 120 yards - We were hunting a 100 000 acre conservancy in N. Zululand and had been after a group of dagga boys for a few days - but could never get the right oppurtunity for a shot - being the last day of the hunt - and I knew the guy could shoot - I got him set up in a fork of a tree and told him to go for it ! The buff we wanted was behind some brush - slowly feeding out into the open - so my client had plenty of time to wait and calm his breathing - the buff stepped out - broadside from behind the cover - the first shot was with a soft - and hit just behind the shoulder - I must admit - I expected the beast to hightail it over the horison -( as they normally do when shot at) and that we were in for a tricky follow up - No way - the buff turned away from us and took about 5 steps up the hill and stopped and once again turned broadside ( his buddies had already vacated the area) by this time his head was starting to drop - I told the client to shoot again - the next shot was a solid - on the shoulder - I saw dust fly up behind the buff - and I thought the client had missed - next thing the buff goes down on all fours - rolls over and gives us the death bellow - music to a PH's ears ! I said to myself Marcus - this is some serious shit - I have had clients shoot many buffalo with me over the years with all the big calibres (but mainly with a 375 ) and very seldom do I see buff expire like this - especially from a shot of over a 100 yards. When we eventually got up to the buff - and did the examinations - the soft had mushroomed perfectly and was lodged under the skin on the opposite shoulder - the solid had exited and was buried somewhere in the African dirt !To say I was impressed is an understatement - however remember it was a perfect scenario - dead rest - a client who is a good shot - the correct shot placement - good ammo - and a good calibre rifle ! And seeing the buff anchored and not take off, was a fitting end to a great hunt !
A few weeks later I was in Zambia ( Luangwa Valley ) on another buff hunt - this one was shot at about 50 yards - quartering away through thick grass and reeds - the animal was hit about 2 feet back from the shoulder on the right hand side with the 350 grain soft point - it ran about 30 yards - keeled over and bellowed (more music !! )- we found the bullet under the skin - just forward of the left shoulder - perfect lung shot ! IMHO both these buff seemed to take quite a pounding, which obviously limited them in their ability to get away ! In closing thats my experience with the new Norma PH - I do not get paid by Norma to advertise their product - nor do I get free ammo to test in the field - nor do I get any recognition by anyone at Norma for using their ammo - so there is no need for me to blow smoke up their asses. I am however impressed with the cartridge - and will continue to use in future as the ammo of choice for my 375 !

mark
thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. i have also heard good thing about these line of PH ammo. combination of heavy for caliber well made bullets(i think they use woodleigh bullets) with very high sectional density surely works on larger game. as you said these ammos are very expensive and i have to agree with you sadly even their normal line of ammo is very expensive.
best regards
yes

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

"During my 50 years as a PH, I have never shot a round with a .505 Gibbs, I have never had a client with a .505 Gibbs and i must say that I have never had any desire to exchange my .416 Rigby for a larger caliber."

Why did you have to bring the Gibbs into this? We're just sitting over here, watching the show, and BaBAM! Thrown on the field. That said, my experience has been that the big calibers are not for everyone. But if you will spend some time learning how to shoot one, they can be a lot of fun and quite an effective tool. In my opinion, someone who cannot see the fun and entertainment in blowing the shit out of something (anything) with a 600grain piece of lead at 2600fps, hasn't found the true joy of hunting. I can't tell you how many times I've replayed the video of my hippo erupting out of Lake Cahorra Bassa with what looks like 2 firehoses shooting blood 6 ft out of its nose after it took one from the Gibbs in the face. I mean, it's good anyways you watch it, in fast forward, fast reverse, slow motion, freeze frame

The Gibbs, the mighty Gibbs!

Just to give dear fellows at AR an understanding of how scarce the Big boys was among clients in the "golden" era of Big Game hunting in Africa...

But I like my .505 Gibbs very much, even more than my 9,3x62

I really like the concept that not a lot of folks are paying real attention to some of the ideas that Mr. Selby is putting forth in his statements.

Things such as not EVERYONE has the same level of hunting/shooting experiences or abilities.

If a basically novice hunter, that can shoot a 375 H&H well, is suddenly put into a situation where someone/anyone is trying to force them to use say a 470 or a 500 or something of those sizes, and in a type of firearm the novice has little or no experience with, a double with iron sights versus a familiar bolt action, the odds of things going to hell are magnified many fold.

Don't get me wrong, I like big rifles, I use a 375 H&H on Texas white tails and feral hogs, BFD.

I would not try to force anyone that has only shot a 243 to use my 375 until after they had shot it from the bench several times and got somewhat used to it.

Is the 375 H&H tyhe perfect, All Earth/All Critter caliber, for some folks yes, for others no, who cares.

Everyone is free to make their own choice.

Personally, I prefer the folks that hunt with me, carry the rifle that they are most comfortble and capable with and that is going to allow them to place that most important first shot where it needs to be.

The problem I have noticed over the years, too damn many folks try to get their equipment, whether it is the scope, the caliber of rifle, and the list goes on, make up for a lack of shooting ability, INCLUDING knowing which shots to attempt and which ones to pass at that moment.

Just my opinion folks.

Mike70560:

Sounds like you feel the same way about the 375 (and I only used it once on DG)as I do. I was interested to read that you use a 470 on your local hogs. On another thread, I have mentioned that I fired my PH's 470 N.E. about at least half a dozen times -and very much enjoyed shooting it. To me it had the same "push" of the 375 (only a little bit harder) rather than a "kick". (My example of a "kicking" rifle is the 338 Win. Mag. I watched guys I knew on a rifle range once "practicing" for an Africa hunt for moose -and was very doubtful that they were going to kill moose. (I was concerned by seeing how they rocked back and turned their heads in the moment of recoil)Like you, despite the fact that the 375 is a grand caliber (as the Irish say) it is on the edge and for elephant, yeah, I would want the 470! (Yet, my PH told me that he was used by the Zimbabwe Ministry to cull out elephants and he, like most cull contract hunters of the time (early 1990s) preferred the 375. I always understood that the reasons were that he could stand off at over 75 yards and more and kill his targeted elephant - and that the 375 had such great penetration so that he could kill the occasional cow or even bull who was angry about killing a family member (and who had spotted him) (BTW, after hearing my PH sing these songs of praise about the 375 {I had shot my buff) I asked my PH - "If the 375 is so good -how come you carry a 470?". He gave me his Cheshire cat grin (He was an Englishman and I was an Irishman and we loved insulting each other with English/Irish jokes): He says "Ah, Gerry, the 375 is a killing rifle -but the 470 is a stopping rifle!". I had been in Africa long enough by then to understand exactly what he meant!

Mr Selby's quotes posted are EXACTY why I choose the .416 Rigby for my "big gun".....

I only wish I could have one of his spent .416 cases for my trophy room.....I'd put it in a glass case & have a plaque engraved that said, "this was fired by the great Harry Selby".

He's one of the heroes of my youth!