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Harry Selby’s comments on caliber choice for clients in September issue of American Rifleman… “ I generally encouraged a hunter, unless he had previous experience in handling a heavy double, to use my .375 instead…Many took my advice and benefited from the increased accuracy and additional effective range the .375 provided, resulting in noticeable reduction in wounded animal follow ups.”  At the time of his safari with Ruak, Harry was carrying a .416 Rigby as his ‘big rifle’! NB- Harry is my father generation and has FAR more experience at guiding clients than I have. He was guiding clients when I was still hankering after a BB gun.. AND he started out his hunting career guiding clients, whereas I started out as a parks officer, culling and doing problem animal control and only relatively recently (about the time Harry started to think of retiring) gone into PHing full time. | ||
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Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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That 375H&H of his was probably firing bullets at 9.3x62 velocity's to.  And I'm not  | |||
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Clearly Harry hasn't been to the double rifles forum to get "re-educated"!!!!  Sorry. I couldn't help myself!Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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You mean "brainwashed" I think someone like harry isn't going to be swayed by what the arm chair writes have been pushing down our throats. He has REAL field experiences that have formed his opinion. And that is exactly what some of us have also discovered. It is really makes no difference what size caliber you are using, the end result is governed by where that bullet is placed. | |||
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I asked Harry a few weeks ago about his experience with .505 Gibbs, he answered with a humorous twinkle in his eye; "During my 50 years as a PH, I have never shot a round with a .505 Gibbs, I have never had a client with a .505 Gibbs and i must say that I have never had any desire to exchange my .416 Rigby for a larger caliber." That might say something  | |||
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If I'm not mistaken, Harry finished his career hunting with a 458 WinMag. "During my 50 years as a PH, I have never shot a round with a .505 Gibbs, I have never had a client with a .505 Gibbs and i must say that I have never had any desire to exchange my .416 Rigby for a larger caliber." Seems like the arm chairs are out. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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The .458 WinMag -problems getting .416 Rigby ammunition. "Seems like the arm chairs are out" Pegleg, Please explain what you mean -my english isn't that good! | |||
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The .375 H&H Mag. will always be a great choice for a client hunter. But for big, thick-skinned dangerous game - bigger will always be better - assuming that the shooter can handle the bigger rifle.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Buffalo and elephants in Harry's day must have been softer.  | |||
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Your words are spot on. Very true indeed. No question Saeed is right that bullet placement is the most decisive factor of all. But again no question that a 500 bullet in the same place as a 375 will be more effective everything else equal. Those who tell that is not true is lying to themselves and others... The problem is that most hunters cannot truly manage precise bulletplacement with a 500 and above and therefore will be better off with a 375 or a 9,3mm | |||
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Buffalo...to a limmited extent on buff perhaps you are right. On elephant...if you hit the brain it dies, if you miss the brain with a .577 it may turn..or it may come on. For buff, I have seen a noticable effect with .500 Jeffery...but to be sure of stopping a charge, you have to hit the spine or the brain...and a hit on either of those targets with a .375 will instantly stop the charge...same as hit with a .505...There have been several PH's injured this season that all squared buff in the chest with something alot bigger than a .375...it didn't help them. There have been several clients injured as well...horse power and muzzel engergy failed to impress either elephant or buff... Shot placement allways works..power is for those who cannot shoot straight or are unsure of where exactly to place their shots... Am off hunting so probably will miss seeing where this goes... | |||
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Well Ganyana You r right about shot placement. Means everything. But If you can shot straight with a big bore, it is more effective on marginally placed shots. No one can hit perfect every time under adverse conditions, and then I think a big bore rifle is better than a 9,3 or 375.. Otherwise - why doesnt every PH use a 9,3X62?? And why does most experienced ele ph`s feel that a .416 rifle or bigger is preferred? | |||
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Ok, so let me get this straight, you are saying that you recommend hunting clients bring a double in no less than .577, or a bolt action in at least a .500 or .505?  | |||
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 nice edit.... | |||
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the other edge of that sword: small calibers are for people who can't handle recoil. That's a blade that can cut both ways. You also missed the reason why Harry Selby ever owned a 416 Rigby. Didn't he carry a big double rifle as his only large caliber firearm until that trip? Something about breaking the stock, and having to drive back to Nairobi to get a replacement? Buying the first rifle over 375 caliber he found that had ammunition with it? Of course, if they hadn't sold all the 9,3x62's he could have just bought one of them and been solid gold the rest of his career.  Rich | |||
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YEP!!!!!! Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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so i guess big calibers are for people who can't shoot straight but CAN handle the recoil? does a better job on marginally accurate shot placement? Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Every PH with more than one safari's experience recommends a .375 to his client hunters. For good reason, too. He knows that just about any average guy can handle one about as well as he can handle a .30-06. That makes for a much more enjoyable safari. One needn't deal with the client's bruised ego or his wounded dangerous animals. Hell, most hunters (present company excepted, of course ) are lazy, helpless and stupid, right? But PH's are not cut from that cloth. A PH, being the superior being that he is, will typically use something much bigger than a mere .375, won't he? Moral of this story: " . . . [D]on't, I beseech you, generalize . . . [but] remember that every life is a special problem which is not yours but another's, and content yourself with the terrible algebra of your own." -- Henry James Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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So Sutherlands and Taylors observations that big bore rifles were more likely to turn or stop a charging ele when bullet placement was marginal was just all fiction???? | |||
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Ganyana, thats your problem...you are off to hunt, perhaps buffalo, with a that ridiculous 9,3x62. You have spent far too much time actually hunting and shooting buffalo and NOT enough time reading Taylor and other seminal works on Afican rifles. Thats the gap in your argument... Tsk, Tsk. if you could realize that....  | |||
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a hog shot with a 22 hornet in the head is dead the same hog if shot with a 10 gauge slug in the belly instead of head will become a headache for the hunter.that for the sure i have seen.that for the stopping power theory. yes Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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oh my goodness. Another who cant read It is clealy written above that "all else beeing equal" that mean if you place a marginally good shot f.ex. in the very top of the lungs -then what will be most effective on your hog the 22 Hornet or the 10 gauge slot?? | |||
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Agree that a 9,3 is enough with a well placed shot. A 9,3 in the brain is as effective as a 577. But a perfect shot is not always possible under adverse conditions like stopping a charge in thick jesse. Then at least I think a big bore is more effective / safe to use than a 9,3.. And kayaker - do you think Ganyana has more experience than Taylor and Sutherland? Tell me why all ph`s dont use 9,3mm rifles or 375`s as their stopping rifles?? | |||
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I think Selby covered it, unless the hunter "had previous experience in handling a heavy double" he urged him to use the 375. Simply put, recoil makes shooting calibers above 375 difficult for many hunters, and requires effort and experience to master them. If you haven't put in the time and mastered them, stick with the 375. It will do the job and, if you can handle a 30-06, you can handle a 375. We are back to "use the largest caliber, beginning with the 375 H&H, that you can shoot accurately and rapidly". | |||
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For obvious reasons I enjoyed reading this thread. There are two factors that influence markmanship with a rifle. The one is muzzle blast (try a 220 Swift), a factor not involved for African "heavy calibers". The other is recoil. ( Many years ago when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I instructed in the NG in use of the M1. I became quite good at spotting nervousness at recoil - and how it always, without exception, influenced markmanship -and this was only shooting at paper targets. I fired a 375 some 1500 times or more before I ever saw Africa. (I replaced the rifle, a Ruger, with an identical model and put some 300 rounds or more with the second rifle before I left with it for Zim)) I developed full confidence in myself and my rifle. I belong to the school of shooter who says that a dead shot with a 22 is better off than with a rifle he's scared to death of. (BTW, after having said all this, my PH let me shoot his double (470 N.E.) for about half a dozen rounds. I enjoyed the rifle very much -because I found it to be like the 375 - a "push" rather than a "kick". MY 375 killed a buff exactly as I could have wished - but if I had ever gone for buff again I would have wanted a bazooka! - or at least, a 470,NE. | |||
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For those that have big bore rifles, and don't want your guide to urge you to use his .375, here are a few pointers: 1) Take the rifle out in the back yard and drag it through the dirt a few times, this will give your rifle the appearance of being used often. 2) When walking with your rifle, don't cradle it like a baby, treat it as you would an old hammer, it is a tool, not a status symbol. 3) Make sure you function test the ammo you put into the magazine box, this gives you the appearance that you now what the biggest cause of malfunctions is the easiest to prevent. 4) Don't shy away from the sighting shots. Shoot until they tell you to stop, and hit the target. Your guide will be watching for tell tale signs that you are recoil shy. 5) Bring at least 200 rds of ammo, again make sure the ammo boxes look they were bought prior to just prior to boarding the jumbo jet. John | |||
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That pretty much says it all. NRA Endowment Member | |||
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neither of them my 6,5x55 with 155 grain bullet both 22 hornet and 10 gauge shotgun are forbiden for boar hunting in sweden I agree with you they should write in danish that everybody could understand  Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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just how many moose do you dang Swedes need to kill before yall realize the 6.5x55 is not suitable for big game? | |||
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according to the studies done by swedish hunters organisation . a moose shot in heart -lung area is as dead as shot by a magnum super extra caliber . all shall normally run many yards before going down. the difference is that many hunters shoot much better with 6,5x55 than super magnums and probaility of gut shooting with 6,5x55 is much less than with 458 mag. regards yes Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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sounds like Mr Selby is on to something. | |||
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who is Mr selby i have never meet him before?? Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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No, I don't, although I am unsure how many head Taylor actually took. However I am sure he is a shit-load more experienced on this subject than 99% of the people on this forum... To answer your question - because they are PH's, cleaning up the mess when necessary. That has been the context of this old tired debate since Moses played full-back for the Israelites...the recommednation is for a CLIENT or hunter who is taking a few buff, for which the 9.3/.375 class is highly suitable. For a PH who is shooting under duress at wounded and possibly incoming dangerous game, yes, a heavier rifle is a better option. Besides most PH's don't earn that much and are likely to shoot their .375's way more than some exotic big-bore that costs as much a meal out everytime it goes bang... | |||
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But please do remember that we are only discussing the effectiveness of big bore bullets versus medium bore bullets. Not the ability to shoot straight. I agree that many are more likely to shoot straight with a small bore or a medium bore and that it therefor - for them - will be more effective / kill better. A 30-06 in the heart is much better than a .510 in the stomach.. But is shot placement is equal THEN A BIG BORE IS MORE EFFICIENT. CASE CLOSED!! Otherwise - why are we not all using 7mmMausers in Africa for everything. The PH`s as well.. Or maybe a 243 - With good solid bullets and a fast rate of twist it should have no problem penetrating the needed distance to the brain of all animals... Tell me please | |||
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the famous bell did that and it worked for hun dreds of elephants. he used 6,5 and 275 rigby(7x57 with english citizenship). i talked with a an old and exprienced PH not long ago about what shall i bring with me . i said i have an old and worn Brno in 375 H&H and he told me if you shoot it well it is all you need nothing more. i asked him which kind of rifle he use. he laughed and answered actually the same as yours. i have a few of them in my camp , some in 375 and a few in 416 rigby . i asked about DR and he answered me: he have to hire a gunbearer for carrying all day long the haevy DR and he prefer to carry his own rifle, because sometime when you need them(gunbearers) best they have already runned away Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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it is all you need. But you are not supposed to go after wounded game in the jesse either.. And regarding Bell - do you think he went into the jesse if he had to sort out a wounded buff or ele with his 7mm. I think not. Either he just left the scene or used a bigger bore.. A 7mm woks perfect if you place a perfect brain shot. Just as well will a 243 | |||
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a 7x57 in hand of a ph is more efficient than 470 double in the hands of gunbearer shining with his absence when he is needed best recently a poor PH was badly gored by a beast when the brave gest hunter paniked and diden't shoot the beast and the barve gunbeare was farfrom the place probably on the top of a tree  unlike medium caliber doubles like chapuis and merkel in 9,3x74R or 375 a double barrel which are a delight to carry and shoot english doubles in large english calibers are usually built very heavy because those nice guys had always some one else to carry it for them during the hunting Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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Yes i thought we agree'd that you cant comment on double rifles until you have done some reading, what if someone read this and thought you knew what you were talking about, they would be in big trouble then the reason english doubles are buildt with a bit of weight in them is so they dont clobber the shooter when fired, try looking at saeed's 577 and the poor soul's that fire it. using a gunbearer would be a cool thing to do, but you are actually supposed to train a bit before your safari, so you dont have to shoot from the bakkie all the time, if those extra 2 pounds are so bad for you, remove them from your daypack instead( GPS, camera, sat phone et all) the difference is not big enough to worry about, that is if you use your rifle as a tool and not cradle it in your arms all the time. when did a 10-12 pound gun become very heavy ? best peter | |||
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don , how many guys would use your .375 instead of their prized double ? just curious ...i always have a .375 in the truck in case of a malfunction or any other issue but i havent ever had a guy use it in preference to his own ... "The greatest threat to our wildlife is the thought that someone else will save it” www.facebook.com/ivancartersafrica www.ivancarterwca.org www.ivancarter.com ivan@ivancarter.com | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Harry Selby's comments on caliber choice for clients
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