quote:

Originally posted by Joe Savikataaq Jr:
I heard someone say if you can go skleet shooting with a rifle and hit the target,all the power to you to use a rifle to follow up a leopard,if not use a shot gun.

I assume you are talking about Snow leopards ??---

A large butterfly net now seems to be the obvious choice

Karamoja Bell used to shoot flying swallows with his open sight 7X57 for practice!

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Savikataaq Jr:
I heard someone say if you can go skleet shooting with a rifle and hit the target,all the power to you to use a rifle to follow up a leopard,if not use a shot gun.

Gents,
I understand that after being hashed by a wounded leopard, PH Robin Hurt stated that had he been carrying his double instead of a shotgun, he would not have been harmed. BTW, a short-barreled Marlin guide gun in .450 might just be an excellent follow-up for cats.
Tim

nakihunter, do you assume clients and phs are as good as he was? Does not matter how good he was or anybody was, he is no longer

Remington use to market nickel hardened buck shot. George Hoffman would carry and use to follow up.

Mike

Back in the day of 70# weight limits, I often included a Mossberg 500 12ga w/28" vent and 18.5" barrels in my TuffPak. When Leopard was on quota I took along a 5 pack of 00 or 000 buckshot for follow-up. Not lead shot, which will flatten on impact, but rather "hardened" shot, usually copper coated, for better penetration.

While I've taken both birds and mammals, including cats, with a shotgun in africa, I've never had to follow-up Leopard as they have been DRT. However, having used a riot gun in both combat and LE, I am fully confident with its capabilities on Leopard. Lion is an entirely different issue!

If you talk with leopard Phs in bots/nam/zim that hunts/hunted with dogs and are used with charges and not blind hunting most of them hunts with a shotgun.

How about just NOT wounding the leopard? The shot is very easy - what 40 to 60 yards on average, maximum of 100, and a very good rest to boot.

Just a thought

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
How about just NOT wounding the leopard? The shot is very easy - what 40 to 60 yards on average, maximum of 100, and a very good rest to boot.

Just a thought

I suppose this might work if you miss.

Fun anyway!!

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
How about just NOT wounding the leopard? The shot is very easy - what 40 to 60 yards on average, maximum of 100, and a very good rest to boot.

Just a thought

I suppose this might work if you miss.

Fun anyway!!

Missing would avoid this trouble all-together. Perfect!!

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
If you talk with leopard Phs in bots/nam/zim that hunts/hunted with dogs and are used with charges and not blind hunting most of them hunts with a shotgun.

that's exactly what i was on and the PH also had a shotgun. i was told right up front to expect a close range charge and that is what happened. we had bayed the leopard up twice in thick blackthorn and both times he ran out the back side when we approached. the third time as we approached the PH warned me that he wouldn't run again and to be ready as soon as we arrived.. total time from our arrival( feet on the ground) to DRT was maybe 5-6 seconds. having hunted quail all my life, swinging a shotgun on a fast moving target just felt natural. of course, the post adrenaline shakes lasted about 20 minutes.... it seems to me that in follow ups on wounded leopards, you are HIGHLY unlikely to get a 30-50 yard shot- he is going to be lying down waiting for you to step on him. so buckshot penetration won't really be an issue at under 10 yards on a soft skinned, light weight animal.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
How about just NOT wounding the leopard? The shot is very easy - what 40 to 60 yards on average, maximum of 100, and a very good rest to boot.

Just a thought

Gawd Aaron, do you need to take the fun out of everything?
Seriously though, you shoot, the leopard falls out of the tree, the sun goes down. Period
You have to walk up on that cat dead or not. I used a bolt action 416 with a scope on it. Probably not the best choice but it was what I had. Luckily my cat was spined and could not move anything but his head. Hairy just the same and glad I did it. The greatest dquipment improvement in hunting critters like cats is not the gun but the flashlight

Last season, I had as my leopard gun a Benelli M4 with a Trijicon RMR (which is used with both eyes open) and a forend mounted Coast light with a pressure switch. It holds 6 3" shells in the tube, one in the chamber, and one ghost fed, for 8 shots total. I replaced the factory modified choke with a cylinder bore tube and put a conventional butt stock on it to avoid looking too sinister. For shells, I carried 00 Hevishot or 000 Federal Premium copper plated. In that gun, the 000 loads open up a bit better, but both loads pattern decently and penetrate well. In some loops on the stock, I carried some Brenneke Black Magic slugs, which are in a different league from the usual Remington Slugger stuff. On an M4, it's easy to swap out a single shell. Notably, the M4 is a very fast cycling gun--much faster than the a Model 1100 or 11-87, for example. About the only ding on the gun is that it's a bit heavy. No problems with cats last year, but it was still nice to have just in case.

Just as with the newer slugs, modern buckshot greatly changes what a shotgun can do. I think at least some of the stories about shotguns failing on leopards are the result of crappy European shells loaded with unplated SSG.

Have just re-read "Hunter" by J A Hunter again for about the hundredth time, here was a professional hunter of African par excellence who advocated heavy doubles for most game and who sometimes used a 416 bolt on lion and smaller game.
He was obviously a cool, fast and accurate shot with his guns and if anyone could face a leopard charge with a rifle he could, yet he took his twelve gauge loaded with heavy shot when going into finish wounded leopard.

quote:

you forgot Mark Sullivan to ask spots how he wants to die!

Damn! You beat me to the same thought!

After shooting some large hogs with it from a helicopter...I think Hevi-shot 'T' sized shot would be ideal for leopard.

I would like to try some of the heavy hitting shot cartridges you guys have spoken of, but at this stage there is nothing I have used on pigs that lets me feel confident enough to take a shotgun on a leopard hunt.

Even the heaviest loads I have used and seen used on charging bushpig etc have very bad penetration.

Have any of you taken a Remington 7400 Semi Auto in 30-06 along on an African hunt before? Makes one hell of a pig gun, might be good up close on leopard.

seems to me the neck/shoulder muscles( and the shoulder cartilage plate) are a lot tougher on a pig than a leopard. at least at close ranges, a leopard just isn't that hard to penetrate.

One thing that can be said for sure is that the US supply and development of heavy hitting buck shot is far better than ours here. Local products are mostly pretty aneamic so if you are going to use the shotgun bring the big hitters with you as the stuff we have available sucks.

I had a pig shot at point blank not too long ago. LG shot cartridges that only just made it through the shoulder and lodged against the inside of the leg and rib cage. It was so close that the plastic wads were in the pig.

For those who have problem obtaining good large shot shotgun loads for close up defense.

You can use any shot size, provided you open the cartridge, empty the shot from the shot cup, and put it back in layes with liquid wax.

It solidifies and becomes like a slu at close range.

We have tried #9 skeet loads, and the go through a 48 gallon drum without any problems at all.

Saeed
Do you stick with maximum charge and does it work in a gun with a choke?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
How about just NOT wounding the leopard? The shot is very easy - what 40 to 60 yards on average, maximum of 100, and a very good rest to boot.

Just a thought

You would think huh, but when all else fails semi auto berreta AA or AAA

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
For those who have problem obtaining good large shot shotgun loads for close up defense.

You can use any shot size, provided you open the cartridge, empty the shot from the shot cup, and put it back in layes with liquid wax.

It solidifies and becomes like a slu at close range.

We have tried #9 skeet loads, and the go through a 48 gallon drum without any problems at all.

if you take a 12 gauge shell loaded with birdshot and cut the cartridge case almost completely through a knife just above the brass, when it is fired, the case will separate from the base. essentially forming a slug for close range work. this trick has been used in Mexico for years, where birdshot loads are readily available but buckshot/slugs are impossible to find. devastating at close range but accuracy sucks further out.

In India when we could hunt selectively in the 70's & 80's I have shot Muntjack with No 1 & 2 shot (British size). Range up to 40 meters but mostly under 25 meters in tea fields.

I have also been on hunts where a chital stag was killed with a No2 shot at 10 meters range.

As I have posted before I guerss more leopards were killed in India with LG / SG than with a rifle. Many tigers were killed with LG & Slug loads including my dad who shot 2 tigers with slugs & LG.

My Avatar photo is of my dad with a tiger and his Astra SXS hammer gun in 1952.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
For those who have problem obtaining good large shot shotgun loads for close up defense.

You can use any shot size, provided you open the cartridge, empty the shot from the shot cup, and put it back in layes with liquid wax.

It solidifies and becomes like a slu at close range.

We have tried #9 skeet loads, and the go through a 48 gallon drum without any problems at all.

If you take a 12 gauge shell loaded with bird shot and cut the cartridge case almost completely through just above the brass, when it is fired, the case will separate from the base essentially forming a slug for close range work ....devastating at close range but accuracy sucks further out.

100%

I have tried several guns over the years on Leopard and have had a few nightmare situations with a 12ga 2 3/4" OO Buck, which prompted me to look for something a little bigger.

I switched years ago to the Ithaga 10ga using 4 shot and have had great success, almost like they run into a brick wall.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ B:
I have tried several guns over the years on Leopard and have had a few nightmare situations with a 12ga 2 3/4" OO Buck, which prompted me to look for something a little bigger.

I switched years ago to the Ithaga 10ga using 4 shot and have had great success, almost like they run into a brick wall.

Voice of experience.

In CAR Herve the PH trusts his 458Lott Merkel double and this extra, a saw off 12 gauge shotgun

.herve



and of course my 375 Sauer.
They 3 were used (my scope previously removed)but the leopard was DRT under the tree.
Though I respect Thierry Labat who is a lovely humorous guy, I prefer the double.

The very best way of course is to make sure the first shot is placed correctly so Mr Spots croaks and doesn't just get pissed off.

FWIW, in my latter years of operating, I'd wait until we knew where and when we were going to sit for the cat and go off to another part of the block and EXACTLY recreate the situation by suspending a small plastic water bottle inside a cardboard box with an outline of a cat drawn on the outside of it and then place that onto a similar branch at the same height as our cat would be.

Then at the same range as the real site, we'd place a blind wall & rifle rests identical to the one we were going to use on the cat and the same chair and then tell the client he had as long as he needed but he had to put 3 consecutive shots through the heart/water bottle of our cat and only then would we sit for the big night.

I used that method for about the last 5 or 6 years I was operating and am glad to say, all were 1st shot kills so it worked for me.

Mind you, one is never 110% sure until the dead cat is found so there are still a few nervous moments!

Oh and another tip I learned is not to chew Nicorette gum in the blind because it's a laxative! LOL!

What a very informative thread, and given by many who have great experience with leopard. I have no experience with the spotted devil, however, I could see how a drilling with a 9.3x74 and 2 barrels filled with 00 Buck should be a great combination on a wounded leopard. What do you think?

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
What a very informative thread, and given by many who have great experience with leopard. I have no experience with the spotted devil, however, I could see how a drilling with a 9.3x74 and 2 barrels filled with 00 Buck should be a great combination on a wounded leopard. What do you think?

Actually might not be a bad choice, depends on how fast you can move it around. I would guess the primary reasons so many pro's utilize a shotgun is quick manuverability. Shotguns are light and fast. At 5 yards the pattern on a full choke does not open up very much, so accuracy is still somewhat of a concern even with a shotty gun. The short quick 45-70 guide gun is a pretty good choice considering the above

Steve, I think while you were watching for Mr.Spots, Hooker switched Tje nicertte gum for x-lax gum.

I think the key for the shotgun's effectiveness must be the use of hard, plated buck shot in high velocity loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
What a very informative thread, and given by many who have great experience with leopard. I have no experience with the spotted devil, however, I could see how a drilling with a 9.3x74 and 2 barrels filled with 00 Buck should be a great combination on a wounded leopard. What do you think?

Actually might not be a bad choice, depends on how fast you can move it around. I would guess the primary reasons so many pro's utilize a shotgun is quick manuverability. Shotguns are light and fast. At 5 yards the pattern on a full choke does not open up very much, so accuracy is still somewhat of a concern even with a shotty gun. The short quick 45-70 guide gun is a pretty good choice considering the above

the Ruger O/U i used had a 26 inch barrel bored to skeet/skeet. judging from the holes in the leopard's neck, it gave about a 6-8 inch spread at 5 yards-a bit of leeway. i can't imagine why a full choke would be a good idea at spitting distance....

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
What a very informative thread, and given by many who have great experience with leopard. I have no experience with the spotted devil, however, I could see how a drilling with a 9.3x74 and 2 barrels filled with 00 Buck should be a great combination on a wounded leopard. What do you think?

Actually might not be a bad choice, depends on how fast you can move it around. I would guess the primary reasons so many pro's utilize a shotgun is quick manuverability. Shotguns are light and fast. At 5 yards the pattern on a full choke does not open up very much, so accuracy is still somewhat of a concern even with a shotty gun. The short quick 45-70 guide gun is a pretty good choice considering the above

the Ruger O/U i used had a 26 inch barrel bored to skeet/skeet. judging from the holes in the leopard's neck, it gave about a 6-8 inch spread at 5 yards-a bit of leeway. i can't imagine why a full choke would be a good idea at spitting distance....

I concur

Just curious: some of you highlight the " plated" shots. Could you five more insight? So far I had the impression that PHs are quite happy with the German manufactured Rottweil lead pellets in ist larger sizes. Nice thing is the transparent case so you can see what you got. But they seem pretty standard lead pellets.
Re the Ithaca: great to see the legend mentioned again. Although I have never seen one in reality. Or are people using the Remington SP 10 too?

I'll take the advice of the likes of Robin Hurt and Craig Boddington and opt for a double rifle instead

Hey Rory

We met by happenstance in Reno in January at SCI. I moved a few bar stools to my right to get away from that big, fat,loud mouth POS to my left. We slowly entered a light conversation and became friends. I told you of AR and you stored it in your phone. Dang, I've created a monster. You're a great contributor and you make me proud. Regarding Cindy Garrison. I would very much like to bite her on her ass and pray for lock jaw! If memory serves, she was hooked up with Jeff Rann for awhile. Lucky dude!

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
Hey Rory

We met by happenstance in Reno in January at SCI. I moved a few bar stools to my right to get away from that big, fat,loud mouth POS to my left. We slowly entered a light conversation and became friends. I told you of AR and you stored it in your phone. Dang, I've created a monster. You're a great contributor and you make me proud. Regarding Cindy Garrison. I would very much like to bite her on her ass and pray for lock jaw! If memory serves, she was hooked up with Jeff Rann for awhile. Lucky dude!

I remember you well Don, and it is indeed a great forum. I am thouroghly enjoying it, full of great people and even better information from guys who know what they are talking about.
PS-I caught your double rifle disease, fits very nicely with my own elephant hunting maladie. I must have sat to close to you viewing that fine looking young lady at Brews Brothers.