Sorry I cant clip and paste but check out;

http://www.cnn.com World section

Zimbabwe, here we come.

DB

Great! First the asinine firearms regs. now this? Is the SA government trying to ruin one of their industies on purpose??

I came sooooooooooo close to going in with a couple of friends to buy a ranch in Zim about 10 years ago. Plans didnt work out. Been spending some time considering the same thing for SA. But this is the last straw. I'll never buy an acre of land on that continent in my lifetime.

Will had some choice words and predictions on this a while back as did Ray and others. I'll want to hear their read on it if they happen to see this one.

DB

I read it in the newspaper this morning as well. Just goes along with history on the Dark Continent. Look at Kenya and on down. This has been happening since the 50's and now it's going to happen even faster. Better hunt where and when and while you can. It's not going to change no matter who the optimist might try to be. Blacks hate the whites with more than a passion and want to make up for all the so-called abuses of the white rule of the past. A sorry state we are eventually going to find ourselves in even in South Africa.

I felt sorry for those SA blokes back in 1995 (?) when the vote came around. They were so optimistic for the future.

But any reasonable thinker knew then where all this was headed and is now coming to pass. There is just something in the genes that turns these guys into dictators, if they can get away with it, and the situation now is not dissimilar to their heritage where there was a demonic "king" and everyone else towed the mark.

Call it tribal democracy, serfdom, communism, or whatever, it is preordained and will ruin South Africa, and eventually the USA, as it has every other newly "independent" southern African country. Namibia and Zambia cannot be far behind.

I could be wrong. But doubtful.

I'm not optimistic either. But hold on.

In case anyone had any doubts, the recent Supreme Court case here in the USA, KELO et al. v. CITY OF NEW LONDON et al., demonstrated beyond any doubt that the government (be it federal, state or local) can take (as in "seize") your house and give it to low income or other "disadvantaged" people, or even to Wal-Mart, if they want to.

Or, they can take Wal-Mart's store and give it to Target, if they want to.

They can do it by court order before compensation is paid and forcibly dispossess you too, if need be. It's called eminent domain, condemnation, urban renewal or any one of any number of other names. And it's perfectly legal.

The only requirement is that "just compensation" be paid. And the government is famous for low-balling property owners when it comes time to pony up the cash. To get just compensation, many property owners have to fight the government in court.

That appears to be what will happen in this case. I will be watching to see if the media report on the result of that legal action.

Mrlexma -- I was greatly disappointed by that decision as well. Bad enough that they can take your property for a road, power line or pipeline. But for a development project by a private developer?

quote:

Mphela, who is in charge of land restitution cases in North West Province, said the government would issue an expropriation order for a 500-hectare (1,235-acre) farm owned by Hannes Visser. The government has offered 1.75 million rands (about $276,000) and Visser has asked for 3 million (about $473,000).

Actually ( excluding improvements ) as I dont know what has been done that price might not be too bad for someone wanting to enter into willing buyer willing seller, but untill I know more information it is difficult to comment much further, and it is still before the courts SO lets see what it turns out like in the final wash up !!

------------------

Of course we all know Zims has stolen the farmers land, they are starting to negotoiate lands sales in Namibia and also SA but be careful not to equate Zims with SA or to a lesser degree Namibia, the situation is quite differnt ..

Also we know Africa is becoming a big problem overall BUT dont forget there are many Million Dollar + of (land claims worldide) by so called indiginious peoples, Here in NZ we pay out millions of dollars in compo to the local Maoris for past land grievences, in Canada and USA there are bigger Billions of dollar claims in the pipelines from the Indians, and many other countries are also feeling the wrath of past indifferance or whatever we want to call it //

I have been looking quite closely at the USA in the past weeks with the trauma and devastation brought on by the weather and it has come to my attention and highlighted that you good guys in the USA might actually be sitting on a TIME BOMB yourselves with you local African Americans,

I was quite surprised to notice the very large and ( relativly unhappy) black people in New Orleans and surrounds

I dont think I am wrong or understating in saying maybe you guys in USA will face some increasing racial troubles into the future poissibly as the cultural and economic divide seems to be quite vast and people are living in racially or culturally or economically divides regions !!

It takes a traumatic event to sometimes bring out into the open problmes that might normally go unnoticed (out of sight out of mind) so to apeak

Please dont call me a racist for highlighting what I see be be a possible unhealthy situation occuring in USA !!

Regards, Peter

quote:

Of course we all know Zims has stolen the farmers land, they are starting to negotoiate lands sales in Namibia and also SA but be careful not to equate Zims with SA or to a lesser degree Namibia, the situation is quite differnt ..

Thousands of so-called land claims on SA farms are false. The attitude is the same all over. I grew up in the former South West Africa (Namibia) and I have been living in SA for the past 33 years and know both countries very well. The onslaught has the very same objective - just give SA also 20 yrs after independence (1994).

When farming land goes to the blacks, food production for the masses disapear and subsistance farming rear its head; thus economic activity drops - it is the same all over. Sad but true.

Chris Bekker

quote:

Originally posted by truvelloshooter:

When farming land goes to the blacks, food production for the masses disapear and subsistance farming rear its head; thus economic activity drops - it is the same all over. Sad but true.

Chris Bekker

Right on, Chris.
Dave

The winds of change are never for the betterment of Africa, NEVER.

You think we could get a bunch of hunters together from this continent and just buy a Country in Africa, then we wouldn't have to worry about this stuff. I will gladly do a "scouting mission!!!"

We can be as optimistic as possible, but history is against us and against the whites of South Africa, Namibia, et al on this one. I am in complete accord with Ray's comments. The nose of the camel is under the tent.

every journey no matter how long starts with a first step, and this was a first step in SA. I hope it ends there, doubtful.

After seeing the New Orleans sentiment of the black people I think that it is possible that racism might be rearing its ugly head again here in the (Cough) "Land of the free". It woke me up, thats for sure.

To me it dosent really matter, I just want to enjoy life and the people I meet and go hunting.

I'm certainly not going to stick up for the new government in RSA with several bad decisions I have seen them make. However there are some huge differences between RSA and Zim which you must also look at.

First there were land claims in RSA, and each one must go through a court hearing. For some reason we don't hear or read in the media of all the caases that have been dismissed in the last two years. The great majority have been tossed out as bogus claims by lawyers trying to get poor black families to claim that the land a white farmer owned was cultural land owned by their families many moons ago. I have not seen a single one of these in the news outside RSA.

Next the land claims had a dead line and that has since past. No new land cliams are allowed. If you don't have a land claim now against your property then you're safe. Also there was not a single land claim to my knowledge against a foreign owner. RSA has at least been smart enough to eliminate that from the fear of foreign investors.

Finally the land requires legal compensation before the take over. This means that the owner gets to have an estimate of the value, and the government gets to have an estimate of value and if the two are far apart a third party mediator made up of a panel of both white and blacks will determine and agree on the value.

The two farms I know of that were taken were a stunning surprise to us. Both government offers exceeded the farmers estimates! One farmer was not happy to sell the other became very willing once he saw the check! We all joked that they (RSA)will run out of money after a couple more farms at this rate of over spending.

RSA does not want to fight with the landowners in court and have a big media frenzy with internatioal ridicule. Nor do they want to run the white people with the money and business savy out of the country. Nor do they wish to ruin the productive farms. This is nothing at all like Zimbabwe. Even the USA can take property form a landowner, it's not a whole lot different where the rubber meets the road.

The last thing that is shocking to everyone but a success story for this government in any case. That is the recovery of the rand. We all thought 2 years ago the country was sinking and done when the exchange was 14 to 1 against the USD. But look at the strength of the rand right now. Some things are being done right there as well. I think it's possible they will also have cheaper fuel then the USA will in the near future.

Not everything is doom and gloom there. Don't get on the uninformed "hype" band wagon just yet. Not everything is rosey, but if you were looking at the news while sitting in Europe right now about America how bad would things appear here? We have a president with a 40+ percent approval rating and dropping. Yet I have not in my life seen a President with more bad luck during his term. By comparison President Clinton was on Vacation!

Clintons tough day at work was trying to figure out how to hide while getting a blow job from an intern. Bush has had the largest natural disaster in the history of this country and the largest attack against the USA (mainland)as well. Then Iraq and afganistan and Rita, and the inherritance of a crap economy which he has made much better, and all this while taking blame for the incompetant people like the mayor of New orleans and the idiot governor there as well.

Imagine reading these things as a foreigner what would you think was going one here? I might add that they may have read about the land claims in the news here too. The comment might be "wow the USA is taking land away from people just like RSA"

Be aware there are two sides to every story and the news is famous for promoting hype and fear.

JJHACK, have to agree. Concerning the news media, if you took away the phrases " as many as", "as high as", "as bad as", or "more than", they could not function.

Add to this the outright lies perpetuated by the dominant news media, it is often difficult to determin the true story. This is pure

Somebody please explain why it is that while the rest of the world is experiencing growth and steady improvement...These countries seem to be on a perpetual slide in the wrong direction?

Somebody explain?

JW

JJ,

thanks for the info and your time to post such a long post.

you raise a good point the media does seem to make everything doom and gloom, and is typically biased.

JW,

Zim is sliding into one mans bank account(so to speak), Bob and a few of his friends are rapeing everything they can from everyone and using food as a weapon-starving the people who voted against him, kinda like Saddam did, just kill off any resistance and soon enough you own the country-albeit a destroyed country. he is taking it away from everyone who lives there. There dosent seem to be any opposition to slow him down either.

withholding food-aid, cutting off fuel etc, puts alot of pressure on people, he is turning the people of Zim into hostages if they dont support him they fear that they will suffer more so they start to support him out of fear, like Iraq and next thing you know he ownes the country.

quote:

Originally posted by Tembo:
Great! First the asinine firearms regs. now this? Is the SA government trying to ruin one of their industies on purpose??

I was told(by a SA resident) the firearms thing was to make the EU happy for the World Cup in 2010, could be speculation but it makes some sense.

It sucks thats for sure, at least they should have safe houses or something to store guns for people in transit who want to spend time in SA and spend $$$$.

quote:

Originally posted by JJHACK:
. The comment might be "wow the USA is taking land away from people just like RSA"

they do its called 35% in income taxes

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Somebody please explain why it is that while the rest of the world is experiencing growth and steady improvement...These countries seem to be on a perpetual slide in the wrong direction?

Somebody explain?

JW

JW /

The reason these countries ( Africa I take it you mean ) seem to be on a slide downwards is because many many of the the F... Wit governments of the (free world in particular) keep pumping money into the wrong hands, instead of putting (Hard and Binding conditions) on the AID they listen to the likes of BONO and Clinton, and also some in the EU whom think that because of past injustices that the way to fix it is to give (these Dictators) more money to further entrench themselves.

No good governance without (verified outside checks and balances) should be the position, NO AID period unless it is 100% controlled, end of story. AND dont let the UN get involved as they are the biggest problem ever invented ..

BUT the (sweet talking CON MEN in the West) take a lot of their own gulliable populations for a ride and like sheep a lot of the uninformed members in society cough up their hard earned money which goes into foreign bank accounts (-: It is not the only problem, BUT that is one of the CORE reasons for pepetuation of the poverty being experienced /

Weather and disease are the other BIG compounding factors, as much of the the (food aid ) gets siphoned off and sold on the black market, or given to the local party supporters to maintain power and control over the populations, it is a vicious cycle of holding onto power with the good auspicies of the WEST

Peter

Right on Peter! Amen!

quote:

Next the land claims had a dead line and that has since past. No new land cliams are allowed. If you don't have a land claim now against your property then you're safe.

quote:

That is the recovery of the rand

As always, JJ, an excellent, informative post. In your 1st, above, you seem to assume and trust that the rule of law will always prevail there. Does Africa have that history?

In the 2nd about the Rand, it's not so much that the Rand is wonderful as that other G-8 currencies aren't so hot, it's all a relative thing and "strong currencies" aren't always best. e.g. do you convert Rand to U.S.$?

As you being a landowner and investor there, if you are comfortable with the situation then that's all that matters. From an African historical perspective I am not so convinced but that's just the sceptic in me. All of us truly hope that you are right.

DB

Do you remember the American politician named James Watt? He was planning to take over thousands of acres from Wyoming Rnachers back in the Hmmmm maybe the late 80's ?? it's been too long now. Anyhow he was in court with dozens of these ranchers who had owned the properties for generations and his theory was that if the US governement needed them then it was "his" to take.

He lost in court but the idea that our government could have people that think this way even in America is frightening to all of us.

I'm cautiousley optimistic right now. I do give RSA officials a lot more credit for knowing where there bread is buttered then I give Mugabe.

I just did a quick search to see how close I was on the dates for James Watt. He was quite the character. Here is a clip I found that I thought was kinda funny. He was a jackass but one of the funniest interior secretarys or for that matter funniest people in the history of Amreican politics.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Testifying before Congress, Watt was asked if he agreed that natural resources should be preserved for future generations. His response:

"I do not know how many future generations we can count of before the Lord returns."
--James Watt, February 5, 1981

However, it was not Watts' stance on environmental issues that compelled the Reagan administration to eventually force his resignation. It was the fallout from the following comment he made to a group of lobbyists regarding the makeup of his coal-leasing commission:

"We have every kind of mix you can have. I have a black, I have a woman, two Jews and a cripple."
--James Watt, September 21, 1983

JJ,

No argument here from me on the U.S.A. and some of the bs shenanigans that do go on and what mrlexma said about the recent SCOTUS ruling on forced sale was the first thing that I thought about when reading the RSA piece. But the issue is RSA and African history on the rule of law (for me, anyhow), not so much the U.S.A. and did the RSA have the reknown for present and future rule of law, I think more than a few on this very Forum would be owners there, in some form or fashion.

I think it safe to say that folks like yourself and Ken Moody are probably more aware of the situation than most, being at the point of the spear.

Again, super posts you made here, JJ.

DB

quote:

Next the land claims had a dead line and that has since past. No new land cliams are allowed. If you don't have a land claim now against your property then you're safe. Also there was not a single land claim to my knowledge against a foreign owner. RSA has at least been smart enough to eliminate that from the fear of foreign investors.

JJ:

So how do you / would you explain the current land claims that are in process in the Northern Province in the Hoedspruit area? All the viable commericial farms have been laid claim to. These were filed after the supposed deadline.

Ask me we have such claims against our properties in the lowveld ! They were filed after the deadlines and what is more they were filed for apparent occupation or habitation of land outside of the windows that were initially stipulated by the land claims act.

Further:

This property in question ( ie the first property that will be expropriated where the willing buyer / seller principle has been circumvented by the land claims commisioner how does that sit with your apparent "feel good" notion of what's about to transpire in the RSA.

Ie a landclaims commisioner who is not prepared to further negotiate or enter into legal litigation process for this land.

And not to forget the explicit aim of government to transfer land ownership so that it reflects the pupulation make up of the country. If no current owners are prepared to sell how do you propose the ANC government is going to attain their goal?

Oh and what about the notion of government looking at the proposed 20% black empowerment in all commerical farming. ie that as a white land owner and farmer you will be getting a black sleeping partner in your farming business?

No difference between Zim and the RSA?

I'm not so sure, as we say once bitten twice shy and the bite in the RSA is yet to come.

The RSA has yet to see it's second revolution when the have not's dispose of the victors of the first revolution aginst "white opression". Those who were pawns in the "struggle" and did not become rich like the current black elite that became instant millionaires after the elections in 95.

My question to you would be, why would South Africa be any different to any other African country? We said that of Rhodesia and it came true, I would venture a bet this evening let's see 20 years down the line. Why would there be a renewed, frantic and almost hysterical attempt at movement of people with the ability to move from the country?

So I'm reading through this and see ALF posted, I think to myself, good news ALF's heart stuff must have went fine. Then I continue to read and can just invision his blood pressure going through the roof!

Great points that ALF has made and all so true.

As someone pointed out, it is only a matter of time until the Have-nots rob all the Haves in the USA also.

The basic problem was well known by the framers of the Constitution: A person should not have the right to vote unless or until he is a net producer of wealth and not a consumer of wealth. Originally in the USA you could not vote unless you were a landowner. The modern-day equivalent would be to not gain the right to vote until your net cash-flow into the government exceeds your entitlements from the government.

Right now the Have-nots have the right to vote themselves a share of the wealth of the Haves. Human nature says they will exercise that right. Anybody who's seen Washington, DC or (lately) New Orleans at first hand knows that we have growing pockets of "Third World Countries" right here in the Land of the Free.

Free to rob me!

Alf,
I'm unaware of your situation up there so it's hard to comment on that specific. I should think that something happened before the deadline to get some type of extenion but I just don't know enough about it.

My partners wife is a lawyer and has followed the situation very closely. She is exceptionally knowledgable of the land claim issues. The Dejager family owns many thousands of Acres in South Africa so they follow the current situation very closely, and know a thing or two about the trend.

The biggest fear I think most landowners have right now is the eventaul death of Mandella. I think the fear is that the riots and insanity of his death will cause a lot of violence against the white landowners. Right or wrong many of the landowners are expecting this to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by JJHACK:
Alf,
I'm unaware of your situation up there so it's hard to comment on that specific. I should think that something happened before the deadline to get some type of extenion but I just don't know enough about it.

My partners wife is a lawyer and has followed the situation very closely. She is exceptionally knowledgable of the land claim issues. The Dejager family owns many thousands of Acres in South Africa so they follow the current situation very closely, and know a thing or two about the trend.

The biggest fear I think most landowners have right now is the eventaul death of Mandella. I think the fear is that the riots and insanity of his death will cause a lot of violence against the white landowners. Right or wrong many of the landowners are expecting this to happen.

Hi JJ & Alf

The situation is (reasonably fluid) from my basic and limited understanding.

Once a property is (government gazetted) then I believe there might be a pre-determinte period of (30 days or so) to lodge a challenge or whatever.

Although it was origionally on a willing buyer willing seller basis, this is always a point of contention particularily as WHOM will determine the (bona fide sell price) and if it is based upon true market rate or other, and how are the ranch or land improvements measured, by an independant valuer or a government appointed representitive

At the end of the day the sitting government has all the cards possibly in their hands as I understand they have a 2/3 rds majority in Parliament and therfore (in theory) can change the constitution and/or pass new legislation to suit their aim, which is to free up land owned by others to help resettle and resolve historic land claims //

No doubt there are many frivilious claims that will not see the light of day, and some may take some decades to sort out.

From my undertanding that media highlighted present Pretoria case is so far the only one that has I belive been legally authorised for the government to take the farm from the owner as he has not accepted the government payment offer, but it is still before the courts !!

Any more factual insight from ALF & JJ is more than welcome or others with first hand knowledge of the legal process.

Finally with SA so heavily indebited to outside Western Investment I (very much doubt) they will ever go down the Zimbabwe route. There is tooooo much at stake in SA both for locals and foreign investment to not make it work reasonably amicable ..

Our guests would be (more than surprised) if they knew how much UPMARKET properties in Cape Town in particualr are being snapped up by foreigners and pushing property prices through the roof, SA is economically still drawing many many overseas property and other business investors, so does that tell us that the rest of the world is NOT AS ROSY in the garden as we are led to believe ???

Finally I want our esteemed guest to tell me where in the World today your safety, property rights, and seclusion from terrorism is guaranteed, and where you are NOT being taxed to hell, you need to all look very carefully internally as to what is happing within your own countries and how your (good western governments) are conning you out of your money and indebiting you for the future !!

Peter

quote:

Finally I want our esteemed guest to tell me where in the World today your safety, property rights, and seclusion from terrorism is guaranteed, and where you are NOT being taxed to hell, you need to all look very carefully internally as to what is happing within your own countries and how your (good western governments) are conning you out of your money and indebiting you for the future !!

Respectfully, Peter, I think you've drifted way off course here. The short answers to your query about where, crime, safety, taxes, etc; Wyoming comes to mind. Utah comes to mind, Idaho comes to mind, many parts of Texas come to mind and on and on,etc.

Didn't you move/immigrate FROM RSA or did I just imagine that? If so, why?

DB

quote:

Originally posted by Dungbeetle:

quote:

Finally I want our esteemed guest to tell me where in the World today your safety, property rights, and seclusion from terrorism is guaranteed, and where you are NOT being taxed to hell, you need to all look very carefully internally as to what is happing within your own countries and how your (good western governments) are conning you out of your money and indebiting you for the future !!

Respectfully, Peter, I think you've drifted way off course here. The short answers to your query about where, crime, safety, taxes, etc; Wyoming comes to mind. Utah comes to mind, Idaho comes to mind, many parts of Texas come to mind and on and on,etc.

Didn't you move/immigrate FROM RSA or did I just imagine that? If so, why?

DB

Hello DB

Granted, and apoligise, I did drift off the topic, these threads are all over the place at times as we debate issues and drift a bit.

To be specific ... I left SA when I was a young kid, my parents emigrated to Rhodesia where I spent 20+ years. So apart from the vacation trips to SA & Zambia I have not lived there as an adult except on extended private vacation //

I actully left Rhodesia some 10 years before Mugabe took over the reins as I had enough insite to realise that he was and still is a MADMAN ...

I now live in NZ where we seem to be the same as you guys in the mid USA states quite well protected and not overcrowded, albeit taxed quite high

I hope you guys can keep safe there as well as I see some (thunder clouds on the horizon) even in the good ol USA, I hope I am wrong but I have a gut feeling that things are getting tighter over there since 9/11 and other issues of world security

Peter

quote:

I hope you guys can keep safe there as well as I see some (thunder clouds on the horizon) even in the good ol USA, I hope I am wrong but I have a gut feeling that things are getting tighter over there since 9/11 and other issues of world security

We've always had thunderclouds, hail and rain in the U.S. But we came through it and will again. Thanks, Peter.

DB

Seems like JJHACK is man who looks beneth the veneer of pop media reports...well done!!!

I don't mean to be rude but many of you here have very little experience in living and truly being involed in a country like RSA as well, it seems, good academic hold on laws and procedures (some don't, I am not say all of you). I appreciate your concern , I really do, BUT SA is not Zim, just like Canada is not the USA, you get my drift??

Land claims are not new in RSA, I remember them being made pre-1994 already. The ANC government, who has very solid procedure in place for this has been working through them in a very highly reagrded manner. This situation with the Visser farm is alarming to many I agree but has been in and out of court now for almost 3 years - it is not a sudden grab.
SA's constitution has measures in place to prevent a ZIM. It is in fact one of the most progressive on the planet and the government has been awarded the highest marks internatioanlly for things like conducting elections. The last 2 elections in the US were complete fiasco's with allegations of corruption rife.....lets not sweep this under the rug my friends.

The issue of the new firearms act in SA also full of heresay. Any big change is full of headaches. Look at Canada's firearms registry....its a gong show full of opponents saying all is lost! Lets not forget that either. Oz has major issue with their new laws as does the UK. It will take some time to streamline this and it seems the issues are already starting to get some kind of smoothing out...major change never happens overnight!

Once again it comes down to this simple issue.....Africa is a easy whipping boy. Its is ingrained in the North American psyche to believe nothing good can come from Africa and that all is bad and getting worse. There is a mental block to accepting postives from anywhere other than N. America and Europe. I believ that this is from fear...just like fear of black americans in media and culture.

Take RSA...when we pull off new steps in line with the rest of the west we are 'going to the dogs with new stupid laws'...when we don't we 'are stuck behind the world with bad leaders'. Its a danmed if you do damned if you don't situation that I for one plan on dedicating time and effort to in my life to change.....

Enough politics lets talk rifles!!!!

Is it the ostriche that sticks its head into holes in the ground?

quote:

The last 2 elections in the US were complete fiasco's with allegations of corruption rife.....lets not sweep this under the rug my friends.

If you want a good account of the USA,forget CNN, the BBC and every single South African newspaper.Look at the cold, hard facts.No fiasco's in either election.

Are you guys aware that there is a bill on the floor to sell about a dozen of our national parks to developers and fuel production? We are not Zim but we are starting down a path that looks pretty bad too. I thought national parks were to preserve for our grandchildrens grandchildren and beyond. D