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Steve, As I said that is what John Jackson does do in court every day, fight for Appendix I species to be imported into the USA. This is extremely time consuming and costly, the USF&WS don't have to worry about costs whereas Conservation Force funds are stretched to the limits. To the client it really doesn't matter whether it is a CITES thing or a USF&WS thing, if he can't take his trophy back, the chances are he wont hunt it. You know as well as I that few people are going to spend the kind of money on a lion hunt just to take a few pics. It may be that some people think that the USA is the entire world, that is not the point, it is a huge market for the hunting industry and one that probably would not be filled by hunters from other countries. Are you sure that you are Welsh and not Irish!  Zig Mackintosh. www.ospreyfilming.com www.hunterproud.com https://www.facebook.com/HuntGeo studio@ospreyfilming.com | |||
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Zig, I'm not criticising JJ at all. I'm well aware he does a great job with limited means... I think it does, or at least, should matter a great deal whether it's a CITES or a USF&WS issue. If it's a CITES issue then it's an international thing and virtually unbeatable. If it's a USF&WS issue then it's a domestic thing and it can and SHOULD be addressed in the courts and by your politicians who can be lobbied by the hunting/lobbying organisations. As for people not wanting to hunt without taking trophies home..... that's all part of the minset we need to change. People should be hunting for the pleasure of hunting and for the conservation of the species and one could suggest that refusal to do it unless the trophy can be taken home might possibly smack of the self glorification of the hunter being more important than the thrill of the hunt and the conservation of the species. I admit the US is a very large market but firstly, it's not the only market and secondly, the hunt is still available to them and they have the options of either not keeping the trophy and/or sending it elsewhere in the world. If the hunters, hunting and lobbying organisations challenge the USF&WS and win, then they can import their trophies.... the answer is in their own hands. BTW. I'm British by birth and English by the grace of God.  | |||
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Aah, that makes things much clearer!  I have to go and do some work! Zig Mackintosh. www.ospreyfilming.com www.hunterproud.com https://www.facebook.com/HuntGeo studio@ospreyfilming.com | |||
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Just a few comments on what has been stated so far: - One doesn't have to know and recognize every single male lion in a concession/area nor do they have to identify every single pride, though the latter is achievable in many cases. You only really have to monitor the pride males and in many instances these are fairly easy to recognize with a bit of patience and will by the operators. In fact, if one used the whisker spots method one could identify every single lion individually . Keeping track of the pride males is practically possible in the field without exhaustive resources at one's disposal. In doing so, one can easily determine if a) A pride male has been ousted by identifying that a new male is now in charge of the known pride b) Identify if the lone male is the known pride male on a walk-about. A and b allows one to reach an educated decision on whether to hunt that individual or not. - I have said before several times, using the bait method for hunting lion allows one to monitor and determine if the lion is suitable to be taken or not. - The dark leg markings on the hind legs fade with age and are as a result of the frequent territorial scent marking practices of males who spray their urine on bushes, trees, etc. They are most prominent on males that are still at the beginning of their reproductive careers, having just become territorial and intent on defending their ranges. I am quoting CP here - but what does he know Good hunting! "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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 Andrew, Good on you Mate...knowing my temperment...I probably would have done exactly the same. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Knowing Andrew as I do, I am surprised that's ALL that happened!! | |||
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Bwanamich, I get irritated with CP not from his ignorance of lion ecology...I believe him to be truly intellgent here...but from the politics he plays and his flip-flopping back and forth with the hunting/anti-hunting community. He is either afflicted with bi-polar syndrome or he plays to the one doling out the money that day. Unfortunately it is common in research...A researcher must feed hisself with grant money to self-perpetuate so: The Golden Rule applies once more...He who has the gold makes the rules!!! I...I believe...see a bigger picture. Lions must have monetary value to survive in Africa in the wild. No difference than the White-tailed deer in US. Rnachers used to hate them. Now they love them cause they are worth MONEY...hence now many! Lions must have worth for cattle ranchers to not poison and for 3rd world countries to set aside habitat that could be used for cattle & crops. So...for the future longevity of the LION...hunting and science MUST go hand in hand without the fear of back-stabbing!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I can't wait to meet Andrew sometime...but...I hope wet go on like peas & carrots...as I feel we are a lot alike in the above respect. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I'll agree with that.  But I do think that we need to educate the hunters and indeed many PHs on the subject. | |||
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My sentiments exactly! Lane, you're a genius. Nobody disputes CP's credentials, it's his character that gives him NO credibility!!! He goes to the side that's paying him at the time, and that is EXACTLY what he has done in the recent past. | |||
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Actually mate, your exact words were: Craig Packer is an absolute, complete freakin moron!!   Sorry buddy. Absolutely no offence intended but I just couldn't resist that one! | |||
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Steve - Bottom line, here's how I see it! You think the TGT formula can be done throughout most places, I say IMPOSSIBLE!!! But, we both agree that even if it were possible, that 99% of the outfitters simply don't have the resources/financial capabilities to conduct such an operation. So really, what's the difference? Either way it ain't gonna be done that way, period! So how about doing what's PRACTICAL/LIKELY?? To continue to advocate for something that is likely to never happen, is simply a waste of time. A concerted effort on behalf of ALL outfitters, to regulate the lion hunting within their own territory, in accordance with some outlined standards, whatever they may be. Annual or semi-annual reviews of the quota per block, based on the actual lions that are being shot by said outfitter. If the company is shooting lions that are deemed to be sub-standard, they are either fined, have their quota reduced, or both? That's the only REAL practical application of such an endeavor throughout lion hunting territory. Although I dis-agree with Lane on some of the exact ways to set the criteria, science could certainly help in setting of standards, but I would NOT advocate for it to be a hard and fast rule. Lastly, man you really need to look at the effects the CITES 1 up-listing would have on lion hunting. For some reason, you are simply not paying attention to the info Zig & and I are providing. 100% fact - If the lion gets up-listed, all imports into the U.S. will cease, period! This is based on the NEW 2007 USFWS regulations. Fighting it in anyway, shape or form, WILL NEVER, EVER WORK, period! This would have an immediate effect on the value of lion hunting, and on the LION. Then don't be surprised in the near future, to see the EU follow suit in not allowing importation of any NEW CITES 1 animals. Now, take away the U.S. & European safari market for lion hunting, the lion will have almost no value at all. Once the lion has no value to the locals, the lion will be gone. Kenya, Kenya, Kenya, man just look at Kenya!!! | |||
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What is everyones thoughts on USF&W's role??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I think they're a bunch of arrogant useless anti hunting tossers...... Oh sorry, I misunderstood for a moment. To me they should be the servants of the people and the regulatory body who are CITES..... they seem to think they are the masters of the people and CITES..... And the electorate and CITES seem to let them get away with that attitude. | |||
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Your opinion Aaron? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by shakari: I think they're a bunch of arrogant useless anti hunting tossers...... Yes, yes, yes, we agree!! But you forgot anti-American, socialist morons too!! I gotta admit though, you got me on the CP quote. I mis-spoke, he's actually a complete, total, and over-the-top, FREAKIN MORON!!! | |||
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Steve - See my comments, inside of your comments.
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Lane - To me the USFWS is and should be, just that. The United States Fish & Wildlife Service, not the WORLD WILDLIFE SERVICE, as they are now, or think they are anyway. Their job should be only to serve and administer wildlife authority within the USofA. Now, I understand the import issues, and that's fine. But, the USFWS should allow the other countries of the world to handle their own game issues, and if they see fit to allow legal hunting of a particular animal, the USFWS should not intervene when it comes to importation, period! The POLAR BEAR issue is a prime example! Just another example of big government, "we know better than you"!! The hunting of Polar Bears, isn't gonna stop, period. Really what it is more than anything, is that the majority of govt officials/USFWS employees, making these recommendations, rules and laws, are NOTHING more than anti-hunting, tree-huggers. Besides, I have a huge polar Bear still sitting in Canada, and I'm pissed!! The United States Forest Service here in Colorado is the same way - total anti-hunting. We have areas here close to my home that have awesome elk & deer hunting, an area my partner would love to get an outfitter's permit in to access the huge amount of public land. Although NO OTHER outfitter has a permit in this area, they will not issue him one, or anyone else for that matter. And its been that way here for 6-8 years now. Just a bunch of do-gooder, tree-huggers, with their ecology degrees, from CU-Boulder, land of the fruits & nuts. But of course, JMO. | |||
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Good thread. What is the conclusion chaps? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Aaron, We seem to only disagree on two points. You think it's impossible to keep track of individual lions in an area and ascertain their status. Whereas I think (in fact know)that it can and has been done in at least two African countries. I'm not suggesting it's easy or cheap but it can and has been done.... I draw your attention to BwanaMich's post on that. The other thing we disagree on is whether USF&WS can be reined in. The USA is (at least by repute) a country that observes 'justice for all' to say nothing of the land of the free and the home of the brave..... it's also home to the largest and richest hunting organisations in the world. One of them even uses the phrase 'first for hunters', also makes immense profits out of their convention and I'm told is largely a lobbying organisation. That's just one of the organisations and there are also others. Therefore these organisations are ideally placed to lobby the politicians and challenge USF&WS in court. Hell, as I see it, it isn't even a difficult case to present. All they need to say is that CITES are the worldwide governing body on trade in endangered species and they are happy to issue quota and the exporting country is happy to issue export permits and therefore the country of destination should be happy to issue the import permit. Incidentally, I also think the USF&WS attitude to Mozambican elephant products is even more indefensible. I'm a great believer in JJ but it seems to me he gets precious little support from anyone except individuals. I'm buggered if I know why though! | |||
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Andrew, I think the conclusion is that we all want to see lion hunting continue for the next generation, that USF&WS are a bunch of useless anti hunting, left wing tossers and that you and I are probably the only two members of the most exclusive club in the world. | |||
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Zig, Just watched your latest DVD. Well done but you would do better getting a Brit to narrate it. After all we invented the language. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Well...Obama and the whole Democratic Party is working overtime to change that! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Dallas Safari Club would be the go to club here...NOT SCI. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Good discussion All!!!  to the Lion;  on the USF&WS;  the UN;  Craig Packer.That is my conclusion does that suit you Fairgame? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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You think its bad now, just wait till he's had as long as the Liebour party in the UK had and then see how a left wing Govt can destroy a country! | |||
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Life member: SCI | |||
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Well get to lobbying!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I'm with ya there Lane. | |||
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Hell I'm lobbying every day - in the belly of the beast no less: Harvard Yard. | |||
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Fairgame, Thanks for your compliment. Now that I have established that Steve is neither Welsh nor Irish but is in fact English, I am thinking of recruiting him to do our voice overs.  Over the years we have tried different accents including Brit. But we have found that our viewers, especially the Americans, prefer our dull, flat Southern African accent. Zig Mackintosh. www.ospreyfilming.com www.hunterproud.com https://www.facebook.com/HuntGeo studio@ospreyfilming.com | |||
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Fairgame brought up a good point, what is the conclusion? I don't think that what we say here will have much bearing on CITES or USF&WS but at least it does get debate going between ourselves. At the end of the CITES meeting in 2004, when Kenya's proposal to uplist the lion was defeated, all of the parties, pro and anti hunting, agreed that a series of workshops be held across Africa. The workshops were funded by a number of different organizations including, yes, the SCI Foundation. I wont bore you with all of the details, if anyone is interested I will upload the PDF file to the Safari Newsreel website. A lion conservation strategy was formed, the goal : To secure, and where possible, restore sustainable lion populations throughout their present and potential range, at the same time providing substantial social, cultural, ecological and economic benefits. To achieve this goal six objectives were set out: 1. Management: To ensure effective conservation management of lions, their habitats and wild prey by developing national action plans. 2. Mitigation: To minimize human-lion related conflicts primarily through preventative methods and problem animal control where necessary. 3. Socio-economics: To equitably distribute the costs and benefits of long-term lion management. 4. Policy and land-use: To develop national legal frameworks and incentive structures to promote wildlife-integrated land-use as a form of rural development. 5. Politics: To create more political awareness of the situation. Wildlife conservation in general and lions in particular, are low on the political agenda. 6. Trade: To prevent illegal trade in lions and lion products while promoting and safeguarding responsible, sustainable legal trade. For the strategy to be implemented principal recommendations were made: Regional African political bodies were asked to adopt the strategy and support its implementation. Relevant governments were asked to work together, share experiences and collaborate on trans-boundary issues and implement the strategy at local and regional levels. National action plans for lions were recommended. Relevant governments, international donors and other stakeholders were asked to allocate resources for the implementation of the strategy. But to what extent was this strategy implemented? Range states with a more developed wildlife management structure were in a better position to implement the strategy, Kenya, Tanzania, Namibia, Zambia and Zimbabwe held planning workshops and have draft plans. Once again SCI funded the Mozambique plan. The problem was with West Africa and anyone who has had the pleasure of going through Bangui airport will understand why. Without a strategy for West Africa there was a good chance that the issue of uplisting the lion would arise at the next CITES meeting (March 2010). Article 4 of the principle recommendations reads: Lion Range State governments, international donors and other stakeholders should allocate resources for the implementation of this Strategy. The truth is anti-hunting groups were not going to put any money into the African lion conservation strategy because it is in their best interests that it fails. If it does fail they will be able to say: “There is not enough current data to verify lion numbers and if we put the lion on CITES appendix 1 we will be giving the species full protection for it’s own survival.” Mission accomplished. This is where John Jackson and Conservation Force came in along with generous donors including: Eric Pasanisi Raoul Ramoni Michel Mantheakis Danny McCallum International Professional Hunters Association. If I have left anyone or organization off the list, I apologize, I am just trying to make the point that these were all hunting organizations, mostly Tanzanian. World-renowned lion reseacher, Phillipe Chardonnet along with his researchers now had money to go off into the field to collect the relevant data. Long story short, the hole was plugged and enough had been done to avert the prospect of the lion being uplisted at the CITES meeting. And this is how it stands for now. The antis have now changed tack and are calling for all parties to come together (which they had done during the workshops anyway) to try and find a "solution". Apparently the likes of Joubert have softened their attitude towards hunting, but I don't believe this for a minute. I think a good way to test this would be for our Lane Easter to approach Nat Geo for a grant, which they encourage people to apply for on their website, for his idea to train safari companies and PH's in conducting their own pride dynamics studies and DNA collection etc. We will see how receptive they are to that. Zig Mackintosh. www.ospreyfilming.com www.hunterproud.com https://www.facebook.com/HuntGeo studio@ospreyfilming.com | |||
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Now that, isn't just a good idea, it's a bloody good idea! Incidentally, you can find the entire Chardonnay report on Mozambican lions here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...ion-final-report.pdf | |||
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Now we know why TZ Safaris are so expensive TZ Outfitters do more behind the scene for lion hunting than any other country in africa. Nec Timor Nec Temeritas | |||
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You are absolutely right there. Zig Mackintosh. www.ospreyfilming.com www.hunterproud.com https://www.facebook.com/HuntGeo studio@ospreyfilming.com | |||
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Shakari - Another idea we certainly agree on, and what a wonderful idea Zig!! | |||
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I can think of very few things in life that'd be more interesting than studying pride dynamics in a know area and working out how everything works between the various individuals. A job like that would be my idea of paradise. | |||
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Zig, Forwarding your message to Dr. Derr & Oryxhunter1893 who is his cohort. We'll see what we can do. If you want to help us write the grant request (as you seem quite informed) please PM me your e-mail adrress and I will keep you in the loop. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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