Lane,

Sounds helluva good to me!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

....Lions are on the way out and i am not saying that hunting is the only cause but i am saying that it definitely is not helping there cause...

Zimguide,
Hunting does help if properly conducted (to see how, see previous post to you). Fighting Mad Bob's regulation of what goes on in Zim, as you know, is an uphill battle.

Definitely there are some bad apples in the hunting industry. We need to out them. And the rest of us need to put our best foot forward.

'Cause...the lions only chance...is to have worth!!! This is more true in Africa than anywhere else. How long do you think cattle would be around if they did NOT have worth...0000 days!

Hunting gives them worth and a lot of PH's are caretakers of the environment...not all...but a lot.

Read the Allen Lowe thread...hell he loved ele so much that he probably took a greater chance than needed to keep from shooting a cow. Many PH's like him are around.

There are some PH's in Zim that shoot far too many ele in self defense. These records are kept. These PH's are probably NOT the stewards we seek to uphold the cause for proper lion hunting.

I agree that if hunting is PROPERLY CONDUCTED then it is one of the best forms of conservation. Unfortunately i know that there are a LOT of those "bad apples" around and i think that to have had three cases of "bad apple" hunters in three years in my own PERSONAL experience is way too much. I am afraid that is becoming all about the money for far too many hunting operators now. For those of you that are TRUE AND STILL HAVE ETHICS......i have no problem with you but there are more and more fly by night "bad apples" every day and they are going to be the ones to thank when we chat on a forum like this is 20 years time and say..."remember when we USED to be able to hunt lion...."

quote:

I agree that if hunting is PROPERLY CONDUCTED then it is one of the best forms of conservation. Unfortunately i know that there are a LOT of those "bad apples" around and i think that to have had three cases of "bad apple" hunters in three years in my own PERSONAL experience is way too much. I am afraid that is becoming all about the money for far too many hunting operators now. For those of you that are TRUE AND STILL HAVE ETHICS......i have no problem with you but there are more and more fly by night "bad apples" every day and they are going to be the ones to thank when we chat on a forum like this is 20 years time and say..."remember when we USED to be able to hunt lion...."

Zimguide,

I have some very good Rhodesian friends. My family may spend Christmas in Bulawayo this year with a Rhodesian family.

Why don't you make a list of those operators and/or PH's and put them on this forum???

If you don't want to...PM them to me.

quote:

Originally posted by zimguide:
I am afraid that is becoming all about the money for far too many hunting operators now.

-------------------------------------------------

there are more and more fly by night "bad apples" every day"

Unfortunately both statements are true and also unfortunately the same can also be said of some hunters.

At the risk of sounding like an old fart, in the good old days, things were a lot more honourable on both sides of the fence.

But Zimguide...please remember...there are a lot of unscrupulous veterinarians that practice medicine in the USA! Does not mean we should give up on veterinary medicine for our horses, cattle, pets, and etc.

Bad apples exist everywhere. But there is always a waste basket handy!!!

quote:

At the risk of sounding like an old fart, in the good old days, things were a lot more honourable on both sides of the fence.

Lane's DNA study would be easy to do. It only takes a drop of blood and little time to fill in the card. if only we can get people DO IT!!!! if we don't start some where were going to lose the opertunity

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
Lane's DNA study would be easy to do. It only takes a drop of blood and little time to fill in the card. if only we can get people DO IT!!!! if we don't start some where were going to lose the opertunity

We are trying to expand it way past the DNA part too, Don!!!

First up i am Pro Hunting and PRO Lion hunting but i think that Zimguide has a good point that needs to be discussed and not merely dismissed

Without a doubt the only hope for Lion in Africa is by putting a value on it and the only way to do that is through trophy. Unfortunately there are far to many "bad apples" out there and chasing $$$ is a priority for a number of outfitters.Thankfully Lion research and better management is being funded and encouraged by outfitters and the more responsible outfits are self policing this and the benefits are plain to see.

I dont have all the facts but it would be interesting to know how many truly trophy quality free range lions are succesfully hunted in Africa. IMHO most DG/Lion areas in africa are at best marginal for Lion with very few areas consistently producing quality cats and stable populations of lions that can be hunted on a sustainable basis. A number of those areas could really benefit from a fixed moratorium as suggested by Steve and others should be closed permanently. Not what some hunters want to hear but we need to continue to be a part of the solution

quote:

Originally posted by Manyathelo:
Without a doubt the only hope for Lion in Africa is by putting a value on it and the only way to do that is through trophy.

It doesn't matter how good the science is, the antis and NGOs will use it to ban hunting. I'm not saying stop the research, just don't be surprised when the data is used against you.

quote:

It doesn't matter how good the science is, the antis and NGOs will use it to ban hunting. I'm not saying stop the research, just don't be suprised when the data is used against you.

Steve,

I know we have argued this point before...but I am a scientist...and will go to my grave using science to perpetuate our hunting heritage.

Your above statement to me is akin to: hell...might as well stop breathing now...as we are all going to die sometime...

quote:

Zimguide has a good point that needs to be discussed and not merely dismissed

Agreed.

Looking at it another way. There are probably less than a handful of companies throughout the entire continent that run proper lion management programmes (although many more will claim to do so). TGTS for example, are one of the companies that DO run such a programme.

Most hunters don't even consider booking with such companies because those programmes bump up the price and lower the success rate.

For proper management practices to take place on a wider scale, hunters would need to be prepared to pay those higher prices and accept the lower success rates.

Frankly, I can't see that happening.

As for policing the fly by nights.... that's easier said than done. Look at the company named after the famous film about Karen Blixen for example.

quote:

As for policing the fly by nights.... that's easier said than done. Look at the company named after the famous film about Karen Blixen for example.

Out of Africa is getting some due attention now I think.

Got to keep plugging away...now is no time to give up!

Lane,

Getting attention yes but it's taken years - possibly decades..... and that's just one company.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Lane,

Getting attention yes but it's taken years - possibly decades..... and that's just one company.

I hear you mate!

Man, you guys are typing faster than I can read, and work some too! If you guys say zimguide has a point, then I'll have to go with that. Below is a message I just got this morning from John Jackson - Conservation Force. Obviously as a U.S. citizen, as are many of you, this is a huge reason I am against the up-listing of the lion to Appendix 1. My point is, and I think we all agree. Reduce the value of the lion to natives, and watch the lion go away for good. In many places, if the sport hunters are not willing to hunt lions because they cannot bring they home, then money spent by them, that helps pay for the protection of all game (anti-poaching, etc), including lion, ALL the game suffers. For those that disagree, just look at Lane's example in Uganda, and look at most of Kenya!! Mr. Jackson works non-stop for the good of all hunting/conservation efforts, and could use our help if possible.


Aaron,

We had a 60 percent shortfall. We absolutely need operating cash. Perhaps you can send a request to your contacts, i.e. solicit for us. In short, the proposal that was circulating to list the lion on Appendix 1 was not introduced by any range nation at CoP 15 because of the actions of the hunting community. We expect a renewed proposal in three years at CoP 16. If listed, the US is unlikely to grant import permits. Appendix 1 listed species require import permits and the US has not allowed but one new Appendix 1 species, some markhor on a permit by permit and case by case basis, in over a decade. They just don,t intend to do it anymore not because of CITES Resolutions but because of their own regulatory policies and Sept 2007 regulations. They now have regulations that they must first make biological and management determinations, they have no set criteria, the burden is on the applicant, it is a low priority to process, they will not communicate with the applicant or his representative, their questionnaires to the exporting countries are offensive, confusing, 50- or 60-part impossible to satisfy, that have the effect, perhaps intentional, to discourage the exporting country that over time gives up. The technical questions cannot feasibly be answered by modern science and others would be so expensive and labor intensive as to forestall the import process indefinitely.

You think sending Conservation Force a little money is a burden, that is nothing compared to getting approval of import permits today - that is not possible except at prohibitive expense and after 5 or more years, litigation, etc. leopard and elephant imports are not what they appear to those outside of Conservation Force, not at all. Both the leopard and the elephant required tens of millions of dollars of professional time and documentation, ligation in nearly every instance and is continuing. Those few populations that are importable are now reviewed annually and the permits are not granted until the review is completed. Witness the after-the-season approval of Tanzania elephant and Mozambique elephant this last, 2009 season! FWS has told us it is about to get worse! That is one of the reasons CF exists. Those existing imports are constantly in question and would not exist but for Conservation Force. There are hundreds of tales. In sum, it would be exceptional to import lion into the US, the largest safari market, and the effort would be beyond Conservation Force's capacity in the best of times, much less in our diminishing state with this economy.

Sincerely,
John

John J. Jackson, III
CONSERVATION FORCE
3240 S I-10 Service Road W., Suite 200
Metairie, Louisiana 70001
Tel: (504) 837-1233
Fax: (504) 837-1145
jjw-no@att.net
www.conservationforce.org

Shakari - A lot of companies I know and work with, are VERY concerned about the lion, and the lions they shoot! Many of them are just not as vocal and outspoken about it as TGT, but yet many of them implement the same guide lines to the PH's. Fact is, many of them do not have the money TGT has to make all of the comprehensive info available, etc. Now I am using Zambia as an example, but just talk to Dr. Paula White about the lions being shot in Zambia. She has spent the past 4 years now, in the field for 5 months at a time, collecting all the data, tooth samples, pictures, from the outfitters, and they happily provide it too. She assured me, that the vast majority of lions shot by Zambia PH's, are over 5 years old. She stated many of them have made concerted efforts to abide by a self-imposed rule to do so. Not to mention the lion quota in Zambia was reduced a couple years ago, and I think that helped too. But what do I know??

Ten to twelve years ago a very few of us foresaw the potential demise of legal sport hunting of Lions. We tried to sound a warning but were mostly not taken seriously. I am proud to say I was among those who rang the warning bell and I did convince a few others of the impending peril. Now all conscientious African hunters are aware there is a problem, but few outside our contingent realize the depth of the situation.

It is incumbent upon each of us to do what we can, even if that is no more than making other hunters listen to our warning, to protect and guarantee the continued availability of sport hunting of the African Lion. If you have the time to comment here on AR, then you have the time to be proactive in some manner as well. If we only bitch and moan on AR we will see the worst possible scenario occur. Write a check, talk at your club and at the range and in hunting camp, participate in a sensory safari. Just please do something!

My Grandson just turned 8 months old and I want him to have the opportunity to hunt the great beasts of the African continent just as I have, should he be so inclined. I am doing what I can to insure that opportunity exists for him. Consider this a personal invitation to join me.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Ten to twelve years ago a very few of us foresaw the potential demise of legal sport hunting of Lions. We tried to sound a warning but were mostly not taken seriously. I am proud to say I was among those who rang the warning bell and I did convince a few others of the impending peril. Now all conscientious African hunters are aware there is a problem, but few outside our contingent realize the depth of the situation.

It is incumbent upon each of us to do what we can, even if that is no more than making other hunters listen to our warning, to protect and guarantee the continued availability of sport hunting of the African Lion. If you have the time to comment here on AR, then you have the time to be proactive in some manner as well. If we only bitch and moan on AR we will see the worst possible scenario occur. Write a check, talk at your club and at the range and in hunting camp, participate in a sensory safari. Just please do something!

My Grandson just turned 8 months old and I want him to have the opportunity to hunt the great beasts of the African continent just as I have, should he be so inclined. I am doing what I can to insure that opportunity exists for him.

BINGO!!!!!

quote:

A lot of companies I know and work with, are VERY concerned about the lion, and the lions they shoot! Many of them are just not as vocal and outspoken about it as TGT, but yet many of them implement the same guide lines to the PH's.

Tanzaina Wildlife Co. (Britingham's Co.) does almost exactly the same as TGTS.

Aaron,

Mate, we're not talking about any possible future CITES upgrade at all.... we're talking about management programmes which is a completely different subject. However as far as any possible upgrade goes, as I said a year ago, this is proposed before every COP and so far it hasn't happened. I might be wrong but as far as I know, it hasn't even been discussed because the motion was withdrawn beforehand.

The point you address directly to me actually proves my point completely. Firstly the companies you talk about don't manage their lions properly because they don't have the money..... People won't pay the higher price to finance a proper study programme and so the company can't afford to finance it......... and my other point is that age alone doesn't matter at all. What matters is whether the animal is holding a pride or not and whether that pride has dependent young and the only way to determine that is to run a study programme on every lion in the area. - In other words, Age restriction alone means bugger all.

Someone could shoot a 10 year old lion and have a great trophy..... but if it's holding a pride with dependent young, it's still an inappropriate lion.

quote:

- In other words, Age restriction alone means bugger all.

Someone could shoot a 10 year old lion and have a great trophy..... but if it's holding a pride with dependent young, it's still an inappropriate lion.

Steve,
I am stepping off in water unknown here but...wouldn't it be very rare for a 7+ year old lion to be holding a pride???

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

A lot of companies I know and work with, are VERY concerned about the lion, and the lions they shoot! Many of them are just not as vocal and outspoken about it as TGT, but yet many of them implement the same guide lines to the PH's.

Tanzaina Wildlife Co. (Britingham's Co.) does almost exactly the same as TGTS.

Rubbish.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

A lot of companies I know and work with, are VERY concerned about the lion, and the lions they shoot! Many of them are just not as vocal and outspoken about it as TGT, but yet many of them implement the same guide lines to the PH's.

Tanzaina Wildlife Co. (Britingham's Co.) does almost exactly the same as TGTS.

Rubbish.

Hello Andrew,

I have missed you!!! That was one helluva lion your client took. Good on you man!!!

(in case you can't tell...I am trying to get us off to a better start this time)

Please tell me why that is rubbish and how you know? Or PM me if you prefer.

quote:

I have not perused Kathi's link but at first glance it appears to be about the Jouberts' and not Packer? Where is the statement from Packer about the UN guarding lions on that sight?

Bwanamich,

The quote is from the article in the June 2010 issue of National Geographic "Guarding Lions" by Karen E. Lange. There is a pretty cool picture in the article of a Maasai warrior holding an antenna to find a radio collared lion.

Thanks and the Lion was quite average for the Kafue but a good one to take but there is a tale to tell about this beast.

I hunted the JB asshole and he is the worst human being I have ever come across. I do not mind saying this here, as I personally have nothing to lose as free lance PH.

One day I will tell this story and it is not a a very nice one.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Aaron,

Mate, we're not talking about any possible future CITES upgrade at all.... we're talking about management programmes which is a completely different subject. However as far as any possible upgrade goes, as I said a year ago, this is proposed before every COP and so far it hasn't happened. I might be wrong but as far as I know, it hasn't even been discussed because the motion was withdrawn beforehand.

The point you address directly to me actually proves my point completely. Firstly the companies you talk about don't manage their lions properly because they don't have the money..... People won't pay the higher price to finance a proper study programme and so the company can't afford to finance it......... and my other point is that age alone doesn't matter at all. What matters is whether the animal is holding a pride or not and whether that pride has dependent young and the only way to determine that is to run a study programme on every lion in the area. - In other words, Age restriction alone means bugger all.

Someone could shoot a 10 year old lion and have a great trophy..... but if it's holding a pride with dependent young, it's still an inappropriate lion.

Steve - To actually think that one could KNOW the exact dynamics of each lion in a GMA, is totally delusional!! I strongly believe in what Bwanamich & TGT stand for, but don't think for a second I believe it all. To tell me that you could actually follow a wild lion from age 1-10, and come back from year to year, and find that exact same lion, know its him, etc, etc, is impossible.

I actually asked him once to tell me exactly how they KNOW the age of each lion, and were able to confirm that from year to year, confirm its actually the same one, etc. I never got an answer.

What about when a young male finally sets off to claim his own territory, maybe he travels 20 miles to do so? So maybe you saw him for awhile, but now he's gone, but a NEW one came in, that no one has ever seen?? What about all the GMA's that border National Parks, where lions often live within the boundary of the park?? How do you monitor them and their age, as they go in and out of the park??? Maybe they stay most of their life in the park, then decide to leave for some reason, as they often do? What about when a big male, who has a pride, goes on his 5 day walk about all by himself, as they do, and gets shot by a PH/hunter, who were sure he was all alone, as he likely is. Big Males may go back to the pride, but the pride doesn't come looking for him. So to say you wait to see if he has a pride, well it ain't gonna happen cause they ain't gonna show up. Now if he happens to be with a pride when they come to bait for example, then of course you have some helpful info. But often times, that just ain't the case.

In areas of thick miombo woodlands, long-grass, thick bush, etc, you don't just venture around and see lions laying around, and know his age, pride structure, and can say, hey I know that lion, saw him last year here too! Rarely in these places do you actually see them with any regularity.

So man, the whole TGT known-age lions thing sounds really good, but practical application of that is impossible in many places!! How do I know, because I have been to most all of these places hunting lion for the past 15 years!

Fact is, the CITES 1 up-listing DOES go hand-in-hand with lion conservation. De-value the lion, and lions go away. If lions are non-importable, they become de-valued by the hunter, then de-valued by the natives. 2+2 = 4.

Only best option is to reduce quotas in areas where PH's are NOT consistently shooting MATURE lions. Educate and ask all PH's to do their utmost best to only shoot mature lions, that feel confident are without dependent cubs, etc, etc. But to think the known age lion thing is a practicality, come on man!!! Hell, NO ONE can even agree on how to properly age a lion on the paw anyway. Many theories, but none of them proven science.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Thanks and the Lion was quite average for the Kafue but a good one to take but there is a tale to tell about this beast.

I hunted the JB asshole and he is the worst human being I have ever come across. I do not mind saying this here, as I personally have nothing to lose as free lance PH.

One day I will tell this story and it is not a a very nice one.

Andrew,
Not taking up for JB. However...I know from folks there on the ground (Leon Lamprect & Nigel) that they do implement lion conservation tactics. Did not mean that they do as much as TGTS but they do make a good effort. Do you disagree???

shakari,

I would say that Aaron knows more about this subject than you and note I have hunted along side him.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Thanks and the Lion was quite average for the Kafue but a good one to take but there is a tale to tell about this beast.

I hunted the JB asshole and he is the worst human being I have ever come across. I do not mind saying this here, as I personally have nothing to lose as free lance PH.

One day I will tell this story and it is not a a very nice one.

Andrew,
Not taking up for JB. However...I know from folks there on the ground (Leon Lamprect & Nigel) that they do implement lion conservation tactics. Did not mean that they do as much as TGTS but they do make a good effort. Do you disagree???

Not sure? But if they do then good on them. Note I hunt along side my very good friend Richard Bell Cross and the day a shoot a lesser Lion is apparently the last day I hunt for him? Friend or not.

quote:

Note I hunt along side my very good friend Richard Bell Cross and the day a shoot a lesser Lion is apparently the last day I hunt for him? Friend or not.

Andrew,
I am starting to warm up to you...even if you are a non-houndsman. Glad you had a successful hunt. Did y'all or will y'all X-ray the the tooth for age evaluation???

Lane - JB's marketing manager, and manager here in the U.S., is my ex-girlfriend, and trust me I know her well. We have talked about it several times, and yes they implement the self-imposed, 6-yr old rule. Of course they say that, what else are they gonna say. Fact is as she has said, and I have always stated. They don't know for sure how old the lion is, so they do the best they can to shoot only mature lions, not with dependent pride, etc, etc. They do the same that anyone is capable of doing, take the best lion they can and be conservation minded at the same time.

You saw my post above to Steve, the rest of it, 90% of the time would just be plain impossible. And I say 90%, because if I said 100%, someone would tell me that nothing's impossible all the time.

Aaron,
We both have our opinions. Don't want to argue the fine points with you again. I know your heart is in the right place and your on the side of the lion. Good enogh for me!

Lane,

I took the figure of 10 years of age as an example. What I meant was that no matter how big the mane or how old the lion, if it's holding a pride with dependent young, it's an inappropriate lion to take because the incoming males will kill the dependent cubs.

Aaron,

You need to re-read my previous posts. What I said was that there needs to be a continent wide study where people follow the prides and study them so they do know the animals in their area and therefore know which ones should and should not be taken...... I also said that I can't see that happening because of the costs involved.

Can it be done? - yes, sure it could. It's certainly not delusional at all and actually it has been done in some areas and in at least two countries. - But (as I've said several times) it would be very expensive and I have my doubts that many hunters and/or outfitters would or could afford it or be willing to afford it...... but if it was done and done properly, it would make an immense difference.

As for nomadic lions, that also could be done if as I suggested the study teams worked with the people in the adjoining areas and with a supervisory body. Note as I said before, it could happen but I have my doubts it will ever happen.

To correct you slightly, TGTS do apply the age thing but they don't stop there. They do also look at pride holding status etc.

CITES upgrade..... an upgrade from CITES II to CITES I, doesn't mean a ban on imports at all.

Leopard and some other species are CITES I and can still be imported. All the hunter needs to do is fill out a form and get the import permit issued just the same way as he would with a leopard etc.

Admittedly, an upgrade might (and it is only a might) mean USF&WS then insist on other requirements but firstly, that's a USF&WS issue and not a CITES one and if they do, then someone needs to address that separately on the grounds that CITES know more than they do and if CITES are happy to issue an export permit then USF&WS should be happy to issue an import permit. Secondly, USF&WS can only affect import to the USA and not the rest of the world and thirdly, as far as I know, USF&WS have not issued any statement that if there is an upgrade, they will issue their own requirements.

As for reducing quotas for areas that are (in your words) NOT consistently shooting MATURE lions.. I can't see that working because firstly quotas have been juggled since quotas were invented and as I keep saying, it's not just about age. Even a real MGM animal can be holding a pride with cubs and shooting him will result in those cubs being killed by the new incoming male(s).

I've even repeatedly said in previous posts that one cannot be 100% sure of age when the animal is alive (so we agree on that one) but the point I repeatedly keep trying to make is that there is more to the issue than age alone and the only way to do it properly (that I can think of) is proper, ongoing studies by qualified/experienced people fo every area.

Also as I've said, I can't see that happening but if we want lion hunting to continue into the next generation then that's exactly what we need to do.

As Joubert said: "The biggest threat isn't hunters, poachers or poison makers -- it is our own complacency"

Andrew,

I don't profess to be an expert and although you know Aaron, you don't know me, therefore any logical comparison would be difficult to say the least.... more importantly, as I said in a previous post, (perhaps with the exception of Lane) all any/all of us are, is a bunch of blokes who happen to have shot a few lions between us. None of us have taken part in any long term term studies of lions and none of us have any qualifications on the subject.

To misquote Aaron, what do any of us know.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Note I hunt along side my very good friend Richard Bell Cross and the day a shoot a lesser Lion is apparently the last day I hunt for him? Friend or not.

Andrew,
I am starting to warm up to you...even if you are a non-houndsman. Glad you had a successful hunt. Did y'all or will y'all X-ray the the tooth for age evaluation???

Lane,

I put him at 5 plus. He was alone and very vocal. Note I had him feeding from day three and kept him on bait for a week whilst we looked around for something better. I had lots of time to study this male and felt I made a good call, he was very black on the back legs which is also an indication of age. He will be aged as all our Lions are, however research has shown here that the black nose theory does not apply in Zambia and unlike Brittingham we have a policy that we do not shoot pride males.

If you watch the DVD a PH refused JB a Lion that was with a pride. The decision was reversed by the powers that be and the PH was made to apologize to the prick. That came from the horse's mouth and Aaron's ex was sitting right next to me on that occasion. This was shortly before I told him to fuck off and called in a car to remove him from my camp.

That was the last I ever saw of him and he had made the grave mistake of condemning a number of my good friends including Aaron and my tip to Jack was a verbal one.

First time on record that a PH has tipped a client?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Lane,

I took the figure of 10 years of age as an example. What I meant was that no matter how big the mane or how old the lion, if it's holding a pride with dependent young, it's an inappropriate lion to take because the incoming males will kill the dependent cubs.

Aaron,

You need to re-read my previous posts. What I said was that there needs to be a continent wide study where people follow the prides and study them so they do know the animals in their area and therefore know which ones should and should not be taken...... I also said that I can't see that happening because of the costs involved.

Can it be done? - yes, sure it could and actually it has been done in some areas and in at least two countries. - But (as I've said 2 or 3 times) it would be very expensive and I have my doubts that many hunters and/or outfitters would or could afford it or be willing to afford it...... but if it was done and done properly, it would make an immense difference.

As for nomadic lions, that also could be done if as I suggested the study teams worked with the people in the adjoining areas and with a supervisory body. Note as I said before, it could happen but I have my doubts it will ever happen.

To correct you slightly, TGTS do apply the age thing but they don't stop there. They do also look at pride holding status etc.

CITES upgrade..... an upgrade from CITES II to CITES I, doesn't mean a ban on imports at all.

Leopard and some other species are CITES I and can still be imported. All the hunter needs to do is fill out a form and get the import permit issued just the same way as he would with a leopard etc.

Admittedly, an upgrade might (and it is only a might) mean USF&WS then insist on other requirements but firstly, that's a USF&WS issue and not a CITES one and if they do, then someone needs to address that separately on the grounds that CITES know more than they do and if CITES are happy to issue an export permit then USF&WS should be happy to issue an import permit. Secondly, USF&WS can only affect import to the USA and not the rest of the world and thirdly, as far as I know, USF&WS have not issued any statement that if there is an upgrade, they will issue their own requirements.

As for reducing quotas for areas that are (in your words) NOT consistently shooting MATURE lions.. I can't see that working because firstly quotas have been juggled since quotas were invented and as I keep saying, it's not just about age. Even a real MGM animal can be holding a pride with cubs and shooting him will result in those cubs being killed by the new incoming male(s).

I've even repeatedly said in previous posts that one cannot be 100% sure of age when the animal is alive (so we agree on that one) but the point I repeatedly keep trying to make is that there is more to the issue than age alone and the only way to do it properly (that I can think of) is proper, ongoing studies by qualified/experienced people fo every area.

Also as I've said, I can't see that happening but if we want lion hunting to continue into the next generation then that's exactly what we need to do.

As Joubert said: "The biggest threat isn't hunters, poachers or poison makers -- it is our own complacency"

Andrew,

I don't profess to be an expert and although you know Aaron, you don't know me, therefore any logical comparison would be difficult to say the least.... more importantly, as I said in a previous post, (perhaps with the exception of Lane) all any/all of us are, is a bunch of blokes who happen to have shot a few lions between us. None of us have taken part in any long term term studies of lions and none of us have any qualifications on the subject.

To misquote Aaron, what do any of us know.

Do you agree I made a good decision to kill this Lion? I put him at between 5 and 6 and felt he was a good trophy. The color of his coat, general appearance, the fact he was very vocal were all factors I took into consideration. However I suspect I have shot Lion in the past that were probably pride males on walk about. Who knows? But what I do know is that Lion in Zambia are plenty and we are fortunate enough to be selective.

Steve,

I have to disagree with you on the effect of uplisting the lion from Appendix II to Appendix I. John Jackson fights every single day for the importation of sport hunted Appendix I species into the USA. As Aaron's post pointed out:

If listed, the US is unlikely to grant import permits. Appendix 1 listed species require import permits and the US has not allowed but one new Appendix 1 species, some markhor on a permit by permit and case by case basis, in over a decade. They just don,t intend to do it anymore not because of CITES Resolutions but because of their own regulatory policies and Sept 2007 regulations. They now have regulations that they must first make biological and management determinations, they have no set criteria, the burden is on the applicant, it is a low priority to process, they will not communicate with the applicant or his representative, their questionnaires to the exporting countries are offensive, confusing, 50- or 60-part impossible to satisfy, that have the effect, perhaps intentional, to discourage the exporting country that over time gives up. The technical questions cannot feasibly be answered by modern science and others would be so expensive and labor intensive as to forestall the import process indefinitely.

What you need to look carefully at is the September 2007 regulations , they have changed the rules!

In a direct contradiction to the CITES regulations, to which the USA is a signatory, you have to prove, in effect, that the species should not be on Appendix I before the trophy can be imported. The time and costs of fighting this red tape makes this next to impossible.

This is an extremely crucial point.

In it’s arrogance the US Fish and Wildlife service gets to decide the strength of “robustness” at their discretion, with no recourse for the host country.

For example, for years Conservation Force has been fighting for importation of trophies from sport hunted elephant from Mozambique, Zambia and Cameroon, as well as cheetah from Namibia, into the USA.

Despite: consultations with the relevant wildlife authorities, researchers, land owners, local communities and non-governmental organizations, the US Fish and Wildlife service is unable to make a non-detriment determination in any of those cases.

Regardless of the fact that CITES itself considers a population to be stable enough to issue a quota, the US Fish and Wildlife Service decides unilaterally to ban the importation of Appendix 1 trophies.

The work and opinions of local researchers and wildlife managers on the ground are treated with absolute distain.

Bottom line: When any new species is placed on Appendix 1 of CITES you are not going to take the trophy back to the USA due to the new U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services regulations.

Why would USF&WS issue any statement about whether they will allow Appendix I lion to be imported into the USA?

Yes the USF&WS can only affect imports into the USA but that market, as you know, is probably bigger than all of the rest combined.

You are right we are not experts but I can tell you that any script that we write for a Conservation Force video project is thoroughly checked out by the network of experts that John Jackson draws on at Conservation Force. If you are going to send a DVD out to every delegate of a CITES convention you had better be sure that you have your facts straight or you will be the laughing stock of the meeting. The two DVDs that we produced for Conservation Force in 2004, for the lion issue, and 2010, for the Zambia/Tanzania elephant issue, were well received and even quoted upon. There were no negative reports from any of the delegates.

I am afraid that any new Appendix I listing spells the end of hunting and the importation into the USA of that species.

Andrew,

It certainly looks like a very nice animal and I congratulate you on it but I couldn't possibly know if it was an appropriate lion to take because I have no idea of populations and/or whether it was a pride holder and/or if that pride had dependent cubs.

My point is that lion populations can grow and collapse very quickly and in an ideal world every outfitter and every PH would know or have people who would know what is and isn't an appropriate lion to take..... but as I've indicated in previous posts, it ain't gonna be easy or cheap to get to that situation and I have my doubts (at the very least) that we ever will.

Like you, I suspect I could well have had clients shoot inappropriate lions and I now regret not knowing more than I did or in fact, do.

I'll even go further by saying I've had clients shoot lions that I KNOW were prideholders but in those cases have had no choice in the matter because they were camp raiders and trying to eat my staff and I put human survival above that of lions.

I'm not for moment suggesting I know all the answers. I don't know half of them but one thing I do know is that we as hunters need to get our act together and manage our lion populations a lot better than we currently do and if we don't, then the next generation won't have any lions to hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Andrew,

It certainly looks like a very nice animal and I congratulate you on it but I couldn't possibly know if it was an appropriate lion to take because I have no idea of populations and/or whether it was a pride holder and/or if that pride had dependent cubs.

My point is that lion populations can grow and collapse very quickly and in an ideal world every outfitter and every PH would know or have people who would know what is and isn't an appropriate lion to take..... but as I've indicated in previous posts, it ain't gonna be easy or cheap to get to that situation and I have my doubts (at the very least) that we ever will.

Like you, I suspect I could well have had clients shoot inappropriate lions and I now regret not knowing more than I did or in fact, do.

I'll even go further by saying I've had clients shoot lions that I KNOW were prideholders but in those cases have had no choice in the matter because they were camp raiders and trying to eat my staff and I put human survival above that of lions.

I'm not for moment suggesting I know all the answers. I don't know half of them but one thing I do know is that we as hunters need to get our act together and manage our lion populations a lot better than we currently do and if we don't, then the next generation won't have any lions to hunt.

That is the problem and we are all concerned, we are after all conservationists.

Zig,

Firstly, as I said, any possible future upgrade will, as far as CITES is concerned only mean applying for an import permit. If USF&WS refuse to issue it because they think they know better than CITES then that's a matter that US citizens and hunting associations need to address in the courts.

Secondly, if USF&WS decide to refuse to issue import permits. that only affects US citizens but no-one else.... Some people seem to think the USA is the entire world..... that ain't the case. Whether they know it or not, there's a whole wide world outside the borders of the US and most if not all of those countries even have citizens who like to hunt.

In both cases the problem (if there is a problem) lies with USF&WS and not CITES and I reckon it's way past hime that the citizens and hunting organisations of the USA exercised their human and democratic rights by taking the anti hunting bastards in USF&WS to court and taught them they're servants of the electorate rather than their masters.

To say nothing of the fact that the refusal of issuing an import licence doen't mean a ban on hunting the animal and taking a bunch of pics. - It just means they can't import the trophy into the USA.