USFWS director Dan Ashe has listed the Lion as "threatened" and will now require a CITES permit for importation into the US. The ruling also does not allow the permit to be issued to anyone with a wildlife violation.

Merry Christmas, Mr Palmer!

I noticed the same thing Rich..
"Palmer Rule" is right...
An absolute direct attributable result to his actions

It should forever be remembered as such

Shit, they were working on it way before that.
And besides that, Palmer got nothing to do with it.

I disagree
They were working on the ban...absolutely correct
But putting the specific piece about wildlife infraction in there...has Cecil written all over it

boarkiller,

got another reason for the specific targeted violator issue?

They would have come up with something else
They've been planning this since Obamq has been in power
Just my way of looking at it
Palmer just got blamed for it

Some of you guys need to realize that certain incidents are NOT going to just go away.

Absolutely, the anti's are constantly working to close hunting of all kinds. That is a given. But we have reached a time where specific incidents, such as the Cecil/Palmer three ring media circus, provide exactly what the anti-hunting groups and the bureaucrats who lean in that direction, exactly what they need to muster the forces of darkness.

Social media has changed the playing field and they know when to strike and how to use it to their best advantage. The days of just ignore them and it will go away are gone and if we continue to think in that fashion, we may as well just throw in the towel as they will already have won by default.

Would this have happened without Palmer, maybe. But Palmer gave the bureaucrats all the air cover they needed to strike. Effectively hunters handed the other side the justification that they needed politically to act now. There is a saying, "a crisis is a terrible thing to waste" and the Democrats are masters of using situations like those created by Palmer to their advantage.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
They would have come up with something else
They've been planning this since Obamq has been in power
Just my way of looking at it
Palmer just got blamed for it

The bloody idiots are always looking for the proverbial "hair that broke the camel's back"!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Would this have happened without Palmer, maybe. But Palmer gave the bureaucrats all the air cover they needed to strike. Effectively hunters handed the other side the justification that they needed politically to act now. There is a saying, "a crisis is a terrible thing to waste" and the Democrats are masters of using situations like those created by Palmer to their advantage.

Boarkiller:

I totally disagree with you on this; this "special" rule would have never happened without Palmer. Hey, get caught with too many walleyes in the freezer (not bag limit, possession limit) and they could deny the permit.

I have read most of the 230 page ruling. What bothers me is that habitat loss is acknowledged to be the biggest threat to lions but the value of their bones got considerable attention as well. So think about it: if you stop lion hunting, make it difficult to import a leopard (that is clearly on Ashe's radar screen as all hunters will now have to be screened for what seems like the smallest of infractions), demand for hunts in the Selous and similar places will dry up. Indigenous people will eventually move in, slowly at first, but eventually destroy any vestige of a game preserve. Lions will be slaughtered for their bones (the price you can get for bones is greater than the annual per capita income of countries with lions).

So far, I have not seen ONE single mention in the UFWS doc that details the impact the end of hunting had on lions in Kenya. I would love to see that.

This is a disaster waiting to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:

Social media has changed the playing field and they know when to strike and how to use it to their best advantage. The days of just ignore them and it will go away are gone and if we continue to think in that fashion, we may as well just throw in the towel as they will already have won by default.

Exactly!

They've been working on this lion thing for years and we've been seeing bits and pieces coming out for awhile
My point is, until we get conservative administration with normal way of thinking, we hunters are screwed
Again, Palmers got nothing to do with it, it was decided way before that.
Palmer was just insult to injury

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Would this have happened without Palmer, maybe. But Palmer gave the bureaucrats all the air cover they needed to strike. Effectively hunters handed the other side the justification that they needed politically to act now. There is a saying, "a crisis is a terrible thing to waste" and the Democrats are masters of using situations like those created by Palmer to their advantage.

I thought we were covered in Washington.

"Fortunately, the vagaries of fleeting public opinion do not dictate the legality and regulatory environment surrounding the pursuit that SCI stands for. The community of international hunters is a relatively small ecosystem that is governed by Congress, federal agencies, international bodies such as CITES, and foreign governments as well. This, by necessity, is the audience upon which SCI must focus to protect and preserve the sport that we cherish."

The above statement was preceded by this gem.

"It was abundantly clear that the rush to judgment over the events in Zimbabwe had already spilled over the boundaries of the single incident. The incredible din of public and media condemnation threatened to conflate the incident with trophy hunting as a whole. Any and all discussion of trophy hunting overseas in this environment would inescapably be seen through the filter of the events in Zimbabwe. That’s why the only public statement made by SCI in this initial period was to effectively disassociate itself from the incident and the individuals involved. And this action was not taken lightly, coming only after hours of sober deliberation by your leadership."


The first two sentences in the above paragraph were correct.

We have a society that does not understand the benefits of hunting and hates to see us kill Dumbo or the Lion King. We have a decidedly liberal media. We have an administration that hates anything deemed traditional in the conservative American sense and a Congress with no backbone. Social media can take anything "viral" (I hate that word). All we needed was a spark to ignite the powder keg. Enter Dr. Palmer.

There is only one (maybe 2 in Cruz) thing that can stop the USF&WS machine.

Donald Trump as POTUS.

I don't think the shit came as a result of Palmer.Which hunter then was responsible for the ivory ban? The interests of those in power were simply not the same as ours.It is time to change those individuals who are in power.Unless we do that this is just going to continue.

Guys,
If you do a search...you will find that Aaron and I told you that this very thing was in the works in USF&WS back in 2010.

This has been a plan by Obama Admin since its election.

Palmer did provide some cover.

There interest in not in conservation it is in staying in power as somebody mentioned.

I asked my Chief what he thought of Dan Ashe and apparently if you mix it with oil you can make a reasonable soap.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
There is only one (maybe 2 in Cruz) thing that can stop the USF&WS machine.

Donald Trump as POTUS.

Not to steal the thread but Trump stands zero chance of winning a general election. He has alienated too many people. While polls change frequently, all the polls I have seen has HC beating every GOP candidate except Rubio.

I am a lifelong Republican, but IMO they have become totally disfunctional as a party.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
There is only one (maybe 2 in Cruz) thing that can stop the USF&WS machine.

Donald Trump as POTUS.

Not to steal the thread but Trump stands zero chance of winning a general election. He has alienated too many people. While polls change frequently, all the polls I have seen has HC beating every GOP candidate except Rubio.

I am a lifelong Republican, but IMO they have become totally disfunctional as a party.

It is a long time until the Tuesday after the first Monday in November 2016. Polls change. As they say in politics...30 days is eternity!

But if you want to save African Wildlife...he might be your man...or at least should be. If we would all quit bashing him and get behind him...he might just pull it off.

Lane that is what we call an extremely long shot. I think your country is more important than a few African Lions.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Lane that is what we call an extremely long shot. I think your country is more important than a few African Lions.

Andrew,
I love the guy.

I would preferentially take him over anyone else in the fray except Cruz!

Saving my country is why I want him. Saving African Hunting would just be frosting on the cake!

BTW...I don't think he is all that long of a shot. Everyone has been predicting his drop since he started...hasn't happened yet...but time will tell!

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I think your country is more important than a few African Lions.

+1

The address below connects to a short video featuring the director of USFWS, listen closely from about 2:00 until the end and make your own determination...
Not good news for hunters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...NPk&feature=youtu.be

Thanks for posting Karl...
Well..
That may well be the official end of Lion Hunting as we know it ( which is why I went to Zambia to hunt one three years ago)

Question to you all and our South African Friends...
So...what happens to the great many captive bred lions now that their market just dried up??!!

Karl,
There is no question that Dan Ashe is NOT for hunters.

As USF&W is under the Secretary of Interior, a presidential cabinet position currently occupied by the most anti-hunting SI ever...Sally Jewel appointed by Obama...

...the only way to fight this is by electing a hunting friendly POTUS.

Has DSC vetted Ted Cruz on this subject?

Donald Trumps sons are hunters...so I know he will have an open mind. The DSC should take a stance and get its membership behind a candidate that is pro-safari hunting which is also pro-conservation!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I think your country is more important than a few African Lions.

+1

As a lawyer and obviously very well versed in litigation is it not possible to challenge USF&WS? What about a petition of say a million hunters?

Any other ideas?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I think your country is more important than a few African Lions.

+1

As a lawyer and obviously very well versed in litigation is it not possible to challenge USF&WS? What about a petition of say a million hunters?

Any other ideas?

Andrew,
John Jackson has pursued the legal route of fighting USF&W for decades now. I said these exact same words back in 2010...if you search you will find them: "fighting USF&W in court, while important, never changes a single thing." John Jackson has won cases to reverse the ban on importation of polar bear trophies...but no trophies can be imported!

Why??? Because USF&W is an executive branch agency and they serve at the will of the POTUS...and with all the power and protection the POTUS has.

The ONLY way to effect change in USF&WS is by the top down. Meaning elect a hunting friendly POTUS.

And you have not seen anything yet! Barack Obama did NOT have a real anti-hunting agenda. But the Clinton Foundation, especially Chelsea, does!!! Hence, Chelsea gave us the ivory ban. If we let mommy have the keys to the Whitehouse...you will see a real hard-core anti-hunting USF&WS emerge.

Friends - I would love to tell you that Lane is wrong about most of this, but fact is, he's not! I'm referring to the lion issues of course, not Trump. I too like Trump, but that's not the point here.

Lane has more direct contact with the "opposition" if you will, than anyone (to include USFWS). I believe SCI single-handedly had the opportunity to stop a lot of this - they chose not to, and the fix was really simple. I believe that, because I was told specifically that - by those that were considered the "experts" on this issue by USFWS. I too received emails / phone calls from the opposition (the scientists in particular that influenced the USFWS's decisions in this matter) and they were very upset with SCI's lack of support for what amounts to nothing more than a simple suggestion / guideline to follow, based on latest available science - nothing more!!! It wasn't rule, it wasn't law, it was simply a guideline - that's all. SCI, they did nothing!

Just like the Palmer incident - I didn't expect them to necessarily support Palmer, that wasn't really the issue. The issue was legal/conservation minded sport hunting of the lion, which they did NOTHING to support after said events, nothing!!! For crying out loud, even Dr. Loveridge (the man who collared Cecil himself) made a statement in favor of legal lion hunting and the fact that it does contribute to sound lion conservation. I've met the man, handed him a collar back myself. He's not a hunter, he's a lion scientist - and he said more in favor of lion hunting than the all-mighty conservation organization (SCI). Am I the only one seeing a pattern here?

When SCI gets the opportunity to step up into the role of CONSERVATION LEADER, the role we all expect them to play - they drop the ball. At least on the lion issue they have, and it my opinion this one is going to be the back breaker!