Say what you like about bull figheters, but thing is for sure.

They don't have very big balls!

A man walks intoa restaurant, and orders teh day's special.

The waiter comes back with a large plate, and two large pieces of meat covered in delicious sauce.

He ate his lunch, and enjoyed it so much, he went back the next day for the same thing.

This time, though, the waiter comes with a small plate, and two tiny pieces of meat coverd in the same delicious sauce.

He said to the waiter "This is nto what I had yesterday! Your servings are becoming much smaller!"

"Sir, sometimes, the bull wins!"

Although I didn't really like "the guy on the padded horse" bit, I admired the rest of the fight I saw in Queretaro.

Maybe if there wasn't so much tradition involved, they would eliminate "the guy on the padded horse". Are you listening bull fight promoters? Call it extreme bull fighting, maybe even bring back the bear and lion stuff! How about Sasha style leopard spearing in a ring?

Mickey, how does one find land to hunt these bulls in Mexico and what's the best season for the meanest bull's? Any outfitters offering these hunts, preferably drop hunts?

Kathi and Ann are you listening?

Saeed,

If you believe the sport to be not as dangerous as you have indicated, how about a little test.

You dress up in your finest red duds, take your 375, best handloads, and have at it with a good Spainish, Fighting Bull.

The ring would be small, you would have to place your unloaded 375 in the middle of the ring, and both you and the bull start from the edge of the arena. Ofcourse, your ammo would be in your pocket, so as to give the poor animal a chance.

I don't go to bull fights, but I would pay to see this one!

Roger QSL

quote:

---

Why not try going into the hills north of Monterey, in Mexico and try and hunt one of the feral fighting bulls that live in the bush there? Leave your support system and your backup at home and see if you really have the cahones you think you do.

---

Mickey1,

How does one arrainge this I'd love to feed my .470 some spanish bull meat? In all seriousness do you have any information on how to set this up?

Greg Allyn

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roger:
Saeed,

If you believe the sport to be not as dangerous as you have indicated, how about a little test.

You dress up in your finest red duds, take your 375, best handloads, and have at it with a good Spainish, Fighting Bull.

The ring would be small, you would have to place your unloaded 375 in the middle of the ring, and both you and the bull start from the edge of the arena. Ofcourse, your ammo would be in your pocket, so as to give the poor animal a chance.

I don't go to bull fights, but I would pay to see this one!

Roger QSL

---

I will be happy to do it. In fact, you can put a half dozen of these cattle in the ring at the same time.

You orgenize it, and I can assure you it won't be more difficult than shooting fish in a barrel

Saeed,

QSL, HI

73 Roger

Matadors don't fear the Bulls.
But this sends them running......

One should read up on bull fighting before one makes an assesment on it, it is quite technical and full of tradition...

Keep in mind that there are bull fights and there are bull fights, just like there is hunting and there hunting..Would anyone care to see a film wherein some hunters shoot a poor downed buffalo a dozen times before they killed it or many of the sorry assed kills I have witnessed on big game by "hunters" or the wounding of animals by self and any of you who care to admit to such...If one lives in a glass house, don't through rocks..

As to the picador, the purpose is to weaken the muscles in the bulls neck so that he will carry his head low enough to expose the shoulder blades for the sword, and one has to get bloody close the the horns (like one inch away) to deliver a killing shot to the openned shoulder blades at the exact moment the front feet hit the ground as that opens the shoulders and gives only an instant window of opertunity for a perfectly aimed sword to penitrate to the hilt. As you can see timing is everything, and if timing is off the matador gets the horn up his anus or groin, now ain't that a sissy sport? I ask you

As to charging with eyes closed, some fighting bulls do and some don't but they all hook up as they pass by the matador and its his skill to let those horns take the buttons off his coat, and that is how his skill is judged...

In Cancun and smaller places you see only poor, up and coming, and amatuer bull fighting, the real art is in Mexico City and Spain, the two are a world apart...

For what its worth.

hahaha a challenge!!

From what I hear Saeed is a pretty good off-hand shot. But can he get to the .375 in time to get a shot off?? hmmmmmmmmmmmm

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roger:
Saeed,

If you believe the sport to be not as dangerous as you have indicated, how about a little test.

You dress up in your finest red duds, take your 375, best handloads, and have at it with a good Spainish, Fighting Bull.

The ring would be small, you would have to place your unloaded 375 in the middle of the ring, and both you and the bull start from the edge of the arena. Ofcourse, your ammo would be in your pocket, so as to give the poor animal a chance.

I don't go to bull fights, but I would pay to see this one!

Roger QSL

---

I will be happy to do it. In fact, you can put a half dozen of these cattle in the ring at the same time.

You orgenize it, and I can assure you it won't be more difficult than shooting fish in a barrel

---

Perhaps a little practice fight would be helpful before the main match of course.

Bull Fighting: Good and stupid fun of the highest order.

quote:

---

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

---

Why not try going into the hills north of Monterey, in Mexico and try and hunt one of the feral fighting bulls that live in the bush there? Leave your support system and your backup at home and see if you really have the cahones you think you do.

---

Mickey1,

How does one arrainge this I'd love to feed my .470 some spanish bull meat? In all seriousness do you have any information on how to set this up?

Greg Allyn

---

Surestrike & Minkman

I booked through Klinbuegers Travel in '83. I flew to Monterey and was met and taken to a Ranch about 5 hours N. of the City. They raised cattle but there were a number of ranches around that raised Bulls. These have been escaping for hundreds of years and taking to the bush.

I hunted 7 days and shot four. A Vaquero and I would leave in the pickup in the early morning. He would drop me off and I would wander along until we would meet up later.

I saw a dozen or so but mostly just a fleeting glance. As I was alone I wanted a good shot. I was charged once. A bull was stnading in a track as I rounded a corner. He saw me and came right at me from 40 yards or so. I hit him once in the lower chest and once on the end of the nose. The second shot turned him and I got in another through the shoulders. A .404 Jeffery.

You might try someone like Ron the Guide or an agent that is in Mexico.

I think that someone has to learn about something before giving a quick opinion.

Sissy's??? I will like to see how many of you will keep their ground facing a charging Lidia bull!!

Respect traditions and their meaning before bashing something.

The Bullfighters (matadores) dress with brillant swits because it's a party, because that's the way MAN has to live life, with joy and facing death with courage, dominating the primitive instincts the bull represents. Intelligence dominates and put MAN over the beasts, the matador faces the brutal, instintive and desorganized charge of nature and transform it in art, after the "pase", after meeting the matador, the full charge bull is dominated, do what men wants, the matador cannalize the forze and dominate it, transform it.

Sorry, my english isn't very good so maybe you don't understand a word of what I'm trying to say.

They have TOO much history to be taken lightly.

L

I want to see RIP or Mickey kill a fighting bull with a sword, I will pay them each $5,000 plus expenses to do so in the ring, but if they back our or shoot him, they owe me $5000 ...

Ray,
I will do it as long as I can bring my own picador, and it will be Ted Nugent riding a bison with the usual spear.

I figure the toro will want to butt heads with the bison a few times before I get to face him. After that I might have a chance.

Cheers!

How about these ones RIP....bring a big sword!!

G'day Bakes,
I really don't want to use a sword, except on the dare from Ray, especially if I don't have Ted Nugent on a bison as my warmup act.

Seriously, I gotta do SCRUB BULL before I kick off, and hopefully, some Australian wild boar and a big Australian water buff to boot. That would make a great walk about for Crocodile Ronnie here.

Thanks for the great pics.
Cheers!

RIP,

Weren't we posting about the Grand Slam (or World Slam) of Bovids one time, years ago? I recall tossing around some ideas for required species, etc. Anyway, sounds like one of these crazy feral Spanish fighting bulls in Mexico would have to make the list.

I still think a Slam on Bovids is a cool thing.

RE: Ted Nugent on a bison as your picador....make that happen and you could charge a pile of $$$$ for people to watch. Could keep you going to Africa every year until eternity!!

Cheers,
Canuck

Ja, Canuck, the bovid grand slam is a recurring fantasy, as you recall.

Feral cattle anywhere, toro de lidia, Texas longhorn, or Australian scrub bull, they all turn my crank.

The gaur and back-bred auroch might be tough to come by ... but hey, anyone can dream.

I think Ted Nugent might be game for this, if his cut of the take was big enough. Yes, I could hunt cattle to heart's content if I could pull that off.

Well mate if you make it this year, you've got free room and board at my place. But you have to hurry as I might be outta here next year. I might be headed to Victoria! Thats not all that bad however as thats Sambar country (thats why I picked it....don't tell the wife )

I watched a "bloodless" bullfight this last summer in Madera, CA. It is a portuguese tradition the bullfight there and they do bloodless which means they don't get to stab the bull, the poke it with these tubes that have a stick inside that has a sticky pad on it, they hit it and it sticks, they pull away and ribbons unfurl. Looks like they got stabbed but no pain. No sword for the matador either. I found it very exciting, and yes, I cheered for the bull. I always cheer for the animal, but then again I smile a bit when the deer outsmart me too. That's what its about, us against them, the square off. The bull is outnumbered so I cheered him.

A couple matadors got hurt, some of the other guys too. They have a whole group at these bloodless fights that are responsible for stoping it. When they figure time for that bull to quit they go out, some distract it by getting in a long line in front of it and the first guy jumps on the horns and they all get stacked up on the charge to slow him down. The trick is to get close enough that he can't build up his momentum before he hits. Then another guy comes behind and hangs onto the tail, seems hanging onto the tail calms them right down. Then they bring in lady bulls and he follows them out.

Anyways, one of these old boys learned fast. Every time he would charge guys they would dart behind the little barrier in front of the cut in the ring. So all of a sudden he charges and aims right for that thing, collapses one side almost catching a guy between it and the wall and stranding another out there that had to climb up and over the wall. The horse and its rider also got a pretty good injury from one of the bulls, no blood but the horse was shook and the rider I saw limping outside later.

I now have a question for all of you, I thought I could make money with a new sport I could promote, purely for entertainment GOAT FIGHTING. Picture this right...

Smaller ring, shorter height walls, mad goats, and DWARFS! come on, you'd pay a reasonable fee to watch right?

Red

I raised cattle with my dad and have had my share of encounters with big mean and nasty free range bulls and when you have 1800 + lbs of bull, that does not fear you and will go out of his way to express his displeasure with your existence in his time and space, you develope a level of respect for them, or you wind up dead or seriously injured.

Now lets take an animal, who thru selective breeding, is geared physiologically and psychologically towards mayhem and destruction as the focal point of it's existence and then climb into the arena and irritate it some more ( anyone who has dealt with cattle can tell you that even though they look totally spent, that is usually far from the truth) and only have a thin fragile sword a cape and your god given ability and the last thing I would say is that the man in the center of the arena is weak or cowardly.

Something to think on...If one asked a Matador about hunting with a rifle and shooting a cape buffalo or feral bull at 200 yards...what do you think his response would be?

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
Then they bring in lady bulls and he follows them out.

Okay, I have to ask. What the heck is a "lady bull"?

I really figured there would have been more bull riders here. It sure gives you a different point of view when you are tied to them. I am 100% for bull fighting and have nothing but respect for the matadors and the tradition of the sport. I will definitely go to a bull fight when I go to Spain

I have also shot boxed birds. And I love watching a good cock fight (yes, still legal in Louisiana where I am from). The blood sports are the oldest of them all. I hope the live on well past my time.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
Then they bring in lady bulls and he follows them out.

Okay, I have to ask. What the heck is a "lady bull"?

This term comes straight from the poorly educated, they are trying to refer to a COW. Newscasters, also use this term from time to time, and we know how qualified they are to tell us all we need to know.

Hog Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

This term comes straight from the poorly educated, they are trying to refer to a COW

I savvy bull, cow, heifer, steer, etc., just fine, but "lady bull" was a new one on me. I thought Dago Red got a bit confused, and was just pulling his leg a bit.

OK, CH

In a book I read about "Old California" there was a whole chapter on fighting large grizzly bears against Spanish fighting bulls. The chapter said: They usually chained the bear to a pole so it would not be able to run away. However once blood was drawn, the bear was full of fight and generally won the battle, even if it later expired from its wounds. Once the bear got some experience fighting a few bulls, it would easily kill the bulls. I would have never guessed it, but it said the bear would kill the bulls by breaking its neck. Apparently they could find very large (over 1,000 lb) bears and it may well be that they didn't fight the "best" bulls against bears, saving the "best" bulls for traditional bullfighting.So maybe there was a built in bias in favor of the bears.

The topic with more replies in african big game is this one. Some opinions are against bullfighting and some favour it. So as this issue raises some interest I will add some facts. The earliest form of bullfighting is found in Greece in the Micenic period, where performers jumped over the bulls. Later in Spain aorund the 14th century knights and gentlemen speared bulls mainly on horseback, fighting bulls on foot started around 1800. As it has been said the bull has been carefully breeded for centuries with one purpose to attack. The calfs are tested for bravery when they around 8 months old. If they do not attack a horseman who tests them with a blunt spear in open country, never in a bullring, so they have a chance to scape, they go to the stockyard. They are only bullfighted once, when they are grown up, because they are quick learners. If a bull has been previously being fighted it attacks the bullfighter directly, not the cloth. The ranches that breed fighting bulls are guarded with armed men to keep young bullfighters who sometimes try to fight a full grown up animal free. Bulls are expensive in Mexico a 4 to 6 years old bull is sold at aorund 12000 US. Between 1890 and 1920, there were held many bullfights in Mexico city, between bulls and bears, lions, and elephants, Asians from the pictures I have seen,and the bull won all the fights. BEing a matador is difficult as in any show bizz. I have been a surgeon in many bullfights, and I can tell you, all the bullfighters I know are brave people, because they have to overcome their fear. It is a blody sport or tradition, but hunting is also a bloodsport, and eventthough we do not want to inflict the animal more pain than neccesary to cause a quick death, many times tings go wrong and we end up with a badly wounded animal that sometimes cannot even be recovered. A mature bull weights around 1100 pounds, that is about half the size of a cape buffalo, but it has more stamina and bad temper. You can hunt cape buffalo many times and never have a charge, and if charged your PH will be the one who solves the matter. If you get a chance to hunt a feral bull, or get the chance to shoot one at a Ranch, you chances of being charged are almost 100%, and your only backup would be your hunting buddy if you convince him. By the way if things go wrong you survive and try to sue somebody, you will get fron page coverage as a freak.

Good Hunting

Bullfighting, like hunting, will always have people for it and people against it!
We hunters, more than any one else we know that, so we shouldn’t be so hasty in judging bullfighting and bullfighters (specially when we aren’t aware of it’s cultural background).
And if anyone still thinks that bullfighters (or any others involved in bullfighting) are sissy guys, please take a look at the link below and clik "Galeria de fotos"
Some of the photos are from Portuguese “forcadosâ€. In Portugal the bull is not killed in the arena, and after the bullfighter has finished his performance a group of 6 or 7 guys (“forcadosâ€) go into the arena and grab the bull, empty handed!
Not bad for a bunch of “sissy†guys!



Forcados&Bullfighters

I did get a bit confused and it should have read bulls ladies. I guess I could have used bovine harem as well.

Red

On bull fighting.

I have been to many bull fights in Spain and rodeos in the US and Canada. Here are my own personal observations about all of this.

In Spain ( have never seen on in Mexico) the bull is stabbed in the back by the torreador (spelling) before the bull fights. Most of the time this is done two or three times with a lance. This weekens the bull, but according to Spanish tradition makes the bull want to fight more.

Sencondly the bullfighter does the whole song and dance routine with the cape.

Then the bullfighter rushes in and puts two sticks with barbs in the back of the bull. I don't really see these as hurting the bull, they are just part of the display, the prongs are very short.

Then the bull fighter kills the bull with his sword, through the top of the shoulders and into the heart-lung area.

Does it requiere some skill? Yes I beleive it does, and a lot of fancy foot work. Is it dangerous, not really as the torreadors are allways right there and there are usually 5-10 other bullfighters in the ring with the matador at the same time.

Most bullfighters I have seen in Spain were 120-150 pounds and about 5'7ish. I don't know exactly, but these are the ones I have shaken hands with. But this is just what I have seen. Most of the Spanish bulls I have seen are 800-1400 pounds and most are closer to the 800 mark. Yes they are really fiesty.

On Rodeo, most pro-rodeo bulls on the curcuit are 1800-2600 pound Brahama or Brahama cross monsters. Brahama cattle are very large and usually very docile, but crossbreds are loony.

3-5 clowns will be working the bull and keeping the cowboy safe, as well as 2-4 men on horses. Any contact between the bull and the cowboy is usually painful/deadly/disfiguring as the size differences are extreme.

There are thousands of rodeos in Australia, Canada, Mexico, and the United States every year. And most years about 10-20 people get killed and thouands get injured.

It's been a few years since I have heard of a Spanish bullfighter getting killed. I know some of the famous ones died though.

A cape buffalo weighs about 1200-1600 pounds.
A bison weighs about 2200-2800 pounds.
A Brahama-X rodeo bull weighs about 1800-2600 pounds.
A Spanish bullfighting bull weighs about 800-1400 pounds
A water buffalo weighs about 2000.
A Gaur weighs slightly more than a Bison 2200-3000.

So what your saying is that a Pussy with a sword and a red cape, standing behind two more pussies with lances on 2400 pound Belgian draft horses is equal to those rodeo clowns fighting 2400 pound monsters to save a dumbstruck cowboy in a 8000 square foot rodeo arena.

And furthermore a 1500 pound Bos Synerous Caffer is the equal in the fighting world of a 2400 pound shaggy range monster Bison Bison?

Doubt that very much, but this is one of those my dad can beat up your dad things, that will get ugly.

Just my two cents, and worth a laugh.

Hemmingway: Death in the afternoon. Fantastic book on bull fighting written by the master. sissies? Hardly...

Take a look at these sissies:

toureio.no.sapo.pt/images/8a.jpg

toureio.no.sapo.pt/images/Granja05034.jpg

toureio.no.sapo.pt/images/Granja05050.jpg

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfgar:
Imagine if those sissy-boy looking Spanish bullfighters tried their routine with a cape buffalo insted of a regular bull? I always did feel a bit sorry for those bulls, especially when they were stuck in the sholder blades with those colorful lances. What do you all think??

Natasha Illum Berg - Professional Huntress and author has recently finished her new book (yet to be printed) which is about a spanish bullfighter that, bored with his "mondane" job of dispatching bulls, decides to come to Africa to confront a Cape buff. He ends up in a natural "corrida" high up in a mountain glade facing an "old warrior"..... I guess we must wait for the book to find out what happens next

I know Natasha and have visited with her a couple of times when she was in Dar es Salaam, She is a friend of Pierres...Great lady and not all that bad to look at

My lifes desire has been to rope some aussie cattle, water buffalo and a cape buffalo, its been done before and I'd like to try it..I have roped Mexican fighting bulls, and some real wild Longhorn cattle...I would also like to shoot bison with bow, lance, pistol or rifle from a horse while chasing the herd indian style..I watched Dances with wolves several times just for that scene....

My brother and I did that once on one of my dads big mexican steers but our little homemade bows just stuck in the skin, that was scary and we knew we were in deep shit, so we herded that steer way, way into mexico and got home about midnight, told the folks we got lost, and got some real strange looks on that, but we stayed true to the course, we got lost...

Next day dad and our uncle found that damn steer, the SOB wandered home that night...Needless to say they somehow figured out who did it and we both got a nylon rope worn plumb out on our back sides, even though I told them my brother did it!!

Over a short number of years I thing that damn nylon rope got flat on one side from being used on us, I'm, sure it did...

Here you go Ray. Buff hunting in Australia in the 1930's. From the book "Hell west and crooked" The rifle used is a martini .303

Buff and bull catching is done now with a cut down land cruiser with a big arm out the front that goes over the animals neck. Then they dirve it to a tree and tie it there by its horns till they collect it later. I'll try to track down a pic of one.

Ray,
I got a grin out of your desire to rope one. I was witness to an old kid who had the misfortune to actually connect with a headloop on a 3x3 white tail (cowboys & ropes! I'm sure you understand, it seemed like a good idea at the time). That rascal come back up the rope & right into the saddle with him, before he got loose from that little old buck, the good gray horse he was riding looked like it had been in a knife fight.

I stand on my earlier statements, fighting bulls, rodeo bulls, range bulls & buff all deserve the utmost respect7 I don't have any fault with the fellers that pursue any of them either.

mike

quote:

Originally posted by ibexebi:
Ray,
I got a grin out of your desire to rope one. I was witness to an old kid who had the misfortune to actually connect with a headloop on a 3x3 white tail (cowboys & ropes! I'm sure you understand, it seemed like a good idea at the time). That rascal come back up the rope & right into the saddle with him, before he got loose from that little old buck, the good gray horse he was riding looked like it had been in a knife fight.

I stand on my earlier statements, fighting bulls, rodeo bulls, range bulls & buff all deserve the utmost respect7 I don't have any fault with the fellers that pursue any of them either.

mike

Speaking of 'good ideas att th time'. my cousin and I diecided to practice roping from the front fender of an old Jeep flat fender pickup. I believe it was right after we saw Hatari.

I was sitting on the fender while my cousin drove, we were probably 12 at the time. I flicked my loop over the head of a young steer at about 15 mph. Not having a saddle horn but having a big round turn signal on the fender instead, I looped the rope around it and held on.

My cousin, who is not as smart as a horse, applied the brakes and the steer, the turn signal and me all left the front of the pick up. We might have gotten away with it but the lack of a right front turn signal and rope burns on my hands that drew blood got my Grandfather suspicious. The final giveaway was the steer, standing in the pasture with a rope around his neck.

My punishment was buying the new turn signal, my cousin had to get the rope off of the steer. I think there was something about cleaning out the chicken coup also.

Sometimes, the bull wins.

bullfighter horned in the femoral

[URL=femoral bull.wmv]bullfighter' femoral art. show[/URL]