Imagine if those sissy-boy looking Spanish bullfighters tried their routine with a cape buffalo insted of a regular bull? I always did feel a bit sorry for those bulls, especially when they were stuck in the sholder blades with those colorful lances. What do you all think??

Fighting bulls are EXTREMELY aggressive, and have no fear of man, but their habits and methods are different from those of a Cape buffalo.

I do not think that a matador would have much luck with a Cape buffalo bull, especially in thick cover.

George

The so called "bull fight" is a joke!

First they get someone on a horse to half kill the poor thing, then some character pretends to kill it.

Not as sporting as I first thought it was, as I never realized the man on the horse bit before.

Well this is all wild speculation and there's only one way to know for sure. I suggest we all pitch in and buy Ray a "suit of lights" and a ticket to Zim for his 106th Birthday. And we should probably have Saeed's video crew along too. That will settle this matter once and for all.

Elmo

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Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Fighting bulls are EXTREMELY aggressive, and have no fear of man, but their habits and methods are different from those of a Cape buffalo.

I do not think that a _matador_ would have much luck with a Cape buffalo bull, especially in thick cover.

George

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I don't think a matador would have any luck in an open arena either.

an ole cowboy buddy of mine told me about an exhibition bullfight at a rodeo once, they had a matador and a fighting bull etc. But seems some of those ole cowboys went and got a Dairy Bull.........a Jersy if I remember correctly, my buddy said when the matador stepped in the ring, they tuned the dairy bull loose and it run the matador plum out of the ring. Some dairy breeds charge with eyes open if you get the message, my guess a cape does the same thing.

South Dakotan Scotty Phillips, on a $10,000 wager with Mexican fighting bull owners, took a bison bull to Juarez, Mexico in 1907.

The bull injured a rear leg in the boxcar on the way down to Mexico. May have dislocated it from kicking at the boxcar. No matter.

The bull stood peacefully in the ring on three legs.

A fighting bull was turned into the ring. After a few minutes the Mexican bull charged the bison bull, who just put down his head and received the blow with no ill effects.

The Mexican bull kept this up until on the fourth reverberating clash the bison had put some effort into the head butting collision, and knocked the Mexican bull back on its haunches. The Mexican bull then fled terrified to the ring side and cowered there.

The Mexicans turned in three more "fighting bulls" with the same result.

When there were finally four Mexican bulls cowering at ringside, Bison bison got P.O.'ed over the whole affair and charged the group, limping on a bad leg, slowed down a bit.

The Mexicans rapidly evacuated their four bulls out the chutes. So it is written in _The Buffalo Book_ by David A. Dary.
********************************************************

How would a "Bison versus Cape Buffalo" match come out?

I bet on the daga bison. He could whip a daga boy. No contest.

But in a ring, bull against matador armed with sword and cape, it is ridiculous to think of the man surviving more than mere seconds against either a daga bison or daga boy.

Every one here seems to want to make a matador out to be a little candy ass. A few of you may have gone after cape buffalo-but I imagine with a rifle and not a sword. Has any one here ever fought a bull face to face? How about fighting a bull in a rodea (meaning clowning)? I haven't fought them, but I have tied myself to their backs before. After you get tossed like a rag doll and slammed to the ground, as you are trying to stand up and look for 1600# of bull running around you, then call a matador a candy ass. As you feel the big bull booger drying on your shirt, you know you have been close to him. ANd bull snot does dry very hard, which a matador will know-do you?

"Bull riding" as done in Texas, is, to me at least, is a lot more sporting than the "bull fighting" they have in spain.

In Texas, the bull has not been exhausted by a man on a horse with a sword!

Now would be a good time to revive the photo of the matador doing a different kind of "bull riding" ... "sitting" on one horn.

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Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Every one here seems to want to make a matador out to be a little candy ass. A few of you may have gone after cape buffalo-but I imagine with a rifle and not a sword. Has any one here ever fought a bull face to face? How about fighting a bull in a rodea (meaning clowning)? I haven't fought them, but I have tied myself to their backs before. After you get tossed like a rag doll and slammed to the ground, as you are trying to stand up and look for 1600# of bull running around you, then call a matador a candy ass. As you feel the big bull booger drying on your shirt, you know you have been close to him. ANd bull snot does dry very hard, which a matador will know-do you?

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And thats why I was a barrel racer chaser, and not a bull rider.

quote:

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Originally posted by Wolfgar:
Imagine if those sissy-boy looking Spanish bullfighters tried their routine with a cape buffalo insted of a regular bull? I always did feel a bit sorry for those bulls, especially when they were stuck in the sholder blades with those colorful lances. What do you all think??

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I think it may be fair to say that most buff hunters do so for their own experience and purpose. The bull fighting ring is primarily for the spectators entertainment, and the "fighting of the bull" is an arrainged event that is designed to weaken the animal and change the attack it can use, to optimize the event in favor of the "bull fighter". Two very separate things, even though they both end in the death of the animal.

"Bull fighting" is not for me, I would rather hunt. It does appear to be for some, however.

Whatever.

Wolfgar,
Sissy is an unappropiate term to describe a matador. The matador risks his life in every single corrida and it is through his courage, training and technique that he survives.
A cape buffalo would be worthless in a plaza since it would run away from the matador and refuse the fight.

Saeed,
The only joke here is your ignorance on the subject.
The man on the horse does not half kill the bull. Bleeding the bull gives the fiesta a different pace which is more adequate for artistic purposes, gathering the bull and concentrating his attention on the second and third parts of the fight.
A fresh bull is very easily teased by the matador and his cape and is the least dangerous part of the fight.
No character pretends to kill it. A matador, that is a man with his two balls a cape and a sword actually kills the 1.200 lb bull in a fiesta which has very little to do with sport.

Mikeh416Rigby;
You are completely wrong. The plaza, with all that people, the noise and everything is far more dangerous that fighting and killing a bull on open land.


etc.

montero
just another aficionado

And on a lighter note:



-Bob F.

Montero,

You are absolutely right of course, as I know nothing about bull fights except what I see on TV.

Still, I can relate that to what Mark Sullivan does with his buffalos.

First he wounds them, and makes sure they are in the open, then he entices them to charge, and he kills them, glorifying himself in the process.

The matador does exactly the same thing - at least as far as I can see.

The man on the horse does all the dangerous part, and when the bull is half dead, a glorified dancer pretends to kill the bull.

I cannot see the sport in any of these two

Agreed.

Saeed and others,

I have had ring-side seats at some of these spanish and portuguese bullfights- these bull-fighters are far from cowardly and I have been sprayed by the blood of both Matador and bull at these events.

I have seen Matadors with bloody, broken noses, broken ribs and large scrapes and bruising refuse to leave the ring after the 'riding of the bull's front horns' ceremony. They are certainly courageous and far from sissy. Some may say then that they are stupid- however, keep in mind how much steeped-in tradition, bravery and manhood goes into the whole cultural affair- it is part of who they are and what they believe in- the show must go on!

Until one of you gets into the ring with one of these bulls or else at least attends one of these events in their country of origin and up close and personal, please keep an open-minded.

Remember, that what Mark Sullivan does cannot be compared- he is doing it for the money-making footage, with a highpowered big-bore magnum rifle (far from a dagger and cape), with bufallo that have been SHOT with equally high-powered( at least .375 H&H ++) rifles, often SHOT more than once!

What Mark Sullivan does is certainly not ingrained in hundreds of years of culture and tradition nor is it done hand to hand with a sword or dagger. Further, many Matadors earn very little money- some would carry out the lifestyle just for the glory and traditional beliefs of the 'Matador' name. Further, in some portuguese villages, the bravest bulls are spared to fight another day and no matter the locality, the horseman is always fighting a fresh, mean, unwounded bull at the event beginnings. I have seen horses disemboweled and Matadors gored in replay footage while working in Portugal, these things do happen.

Sorry, Saeed, but we were not talking Mark Sullivan here.

A bull does not need to be wounded to fight.

I am no African PH but I would not mind stopping a buffalo charge again , but I would not dare fighting a bull with a red cloth in one hand and a sword in the other, or would you?

The man on the horse does the least dangerous part of all. It is very seldom that he is in trouble.

The bull is not half dead by then and what follows is the most dangerous part of all. A bull learns and learns fast and every minute in the plaza the bull is more dangerous than the minute before.

It is then when the most serious accidents happen.

At least we agree in that it is not a sport.

Montero

"...A bull learns and learns fast and every minute in the plaza the bull is more dangerous than the minute before..."

Yes, and Mark Sullivan says he "lets the buffalo decides how he wishes to die"

I will let the matador and Mark Sullivan do their own thing, and I will stick to shooting buffalo - preferably - without them even knowing about it.

Having been raised on the Mexican border and haveing spent a good deal of time in Mexico and seeing a few of bull fights, reading up on bull fighting, I can tell you this cowboy ain't getting in any ring with one of those Mexican bulls, they are bad boys and intemperant, much more agressive than any cape Buffalo, they will charge on sight in a pasture if you are on foot, they are bred for one thing and that is to kill...

Many, many Matadors are gored and many of them die and most that stay with the game end up getting killed, all of them sooner or later get gored and most get gored a number of times in thier careers..it's not a sissy sport by any streatch of the imagination, but I sure welcome all those who view it as such to give it a try, and they will certainly let anyone in that ring at any time in Mexico..Give it your best shot.

Furthermore bull fighting is a Mexican art form and highly honored in Mexico, it is, in fact, a way of life and should be respected by all...The bull is healthy and the pics and spears only serve to infuriate an allready ticked off animal and that animal is more than capable of killing the matador who is one brave man with not a lot of longivity...

Its not our way of life, but at least we should respect the traditions of others as we would hope they would do in return...

I have heard these same old arguements about hunting wherein we kill the poor animal at 200 yards, give that some thought...

Well said, Ray.

For your information, Spanish fighting bulls have Cape buffalo blood in their background.

Me too: Well said, Ray!

-Bob F.

interboat,
Are you sure? I just finished reading a treatise on the foundations of the 4 foundation bloodlines of Spanish fighting cattle, 2 of which trace directly back to the other 2, both of which completely trace back into the 15th century, with mentions bach into the 13th century, before they fade into unkown obscurity... nary a single mention of africa.
Fascinating reading! They (Spaniards) take this fighting bull business plumb seriously, quite a few conflicts over the centuries. Big time family honor involved.
Mike

Well put Ray

Bull fighting is not for sissys

http://www.clickoncuernavaca.com/BullFights.htm

PS in this series of pictures you can see how the picador gets it.
There is also great info on the bull fighting.

http://www.galenfrysinger.com/bull_fight.htm




Cheers,

André

I can’t find the reference I had in mind about Cape buffalo lines in fighting bulls, but I recall it apparently went back to ancient Roman days when animals were brought from Africa to Rome for Coliseum games and spread from there.

I did find an interesting little essay by Orsen Welles, no less, that I’ve copied below.

I might add that, in my opinion, big game hunters who make derisive comments about bullfighters are in the same class as trap shooters who make derisive comments about big game hunters.

“The institution of bullfighting, you know, somebody once described as being indefensible... and irresistible. As for the bull, the bull himself, well of all creatures in the world, there's certainly nothing more magnificent than a fighting bull. And nothing which lives is quite so dangerous. The fighting bull is a very ancient beast indeed; his line goes back at least 2000 years. The Egyptians bred fighting bulls, so did the Arabs; nobody knows where the Spanish fighting bull really began, except the great ganaderia of Mura (??), is an African breed. I do know that that began with the Berbers, from Africa.

“The beast, the bull, the fighting bull himself, is easily the most dangerous animal on earth. He is literally a fighting animal. He doesn't fight to defend anything, but fights from pleasure having been bred to do exactly that. There have been savage spectacles in which the bulls have been pitted against tigers and lions and wild elephants from Africa. And in these spectacles on each occasion, every recorded instance, shows us that the bull is the victor. He can kill anything else in the world, and indeed, will attempt to kill anything on sight. I've seen young bulls of six and seven weeks old, in the ranches where bulls are bred, attack a locomotive, a moving locomotive, and die of course, the bull that I saw attack the locomotive, rammed straight in, head on, and killed himself.â€

I'm with "montero" on this one all the way.

First, before you denigrate bullfighters - read Hemingway's "Death in the Afternoon" - you might learn a bit about one of the most dangerous of all professional sports.

Second, I totally agree that a Cape buffalo (or Bison) wouldn't have the guts to continue to fight after going through what a fighting bull goes through. It's "un-natural" for any animal that survives in nature to be that unconcerned about it's own survival.I'd bet that after a few charges (if they would even do that - surrounded by thousnads of screaming people) - they'd cower in a corner.

You know how you see herds of Cape Buffalo running from a hunter? That does not happen if you try and walk across a field of Spanish fighting bulls. They will attack! Even if alone. Even if they are young. Even if they are all cows - even if they are heifers!

One of the "selection tests" is for men on horses to ride into the fields - even young bulls must attack to go on. Same with the cows.

To compare a Bison or Cape Buffalo to a Spanish Fighting bull is to compare a Timberwolf to a Pitbull. In a pit - even if the wolf is three times bigger - it's a gonner! Natural selection only allows animals to breed if they've been blessed with a very healthy insinct for self-preservation. Man on the other hand - can breed animals that quite literally - have not fear!

When a bull charges, it puts its head down and can't see ahead, which allows the matador, standing in a blind spot, to step out of the way.

When a cape buffalo charges, it keeps its head up until the last minute, so you can't step out of the way.

As I read this thread, all I can hear ringing in my ears is Herb Alpert's "The Lonely Bull", a wonderful piece of music that really sets the mood! I understand the tradition and the ritual, but as I understand it, the bull is "set up" early on, and made to keep his head down, whereas, as someone else said, the fighting bull would want to keep his head up until the "moment of truth". Does anyone ever cheer for the bull? I would want to.
Not knocking either side here.
Peter.

Well now ain't this a fine bunch of Bovine Machismo (BM, Bull Manure)?
Wish I could find the pic of the matador riding the bull horn by the seat of his pants.

Keep it coming guys, this BS is good!

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Originally posted by RIP:

Wish I could find the pic of the matador riding the bull horn by the seat of his pants.

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I have only seen 1 bull fight. When the picador speared the bull from the horse through the top of the shoulder, the bull began bleeding from the nose immediately. the bull then got angry and picked up the horse. The picador then stuck him through the top of the other shoulder which seemed to settle the bull down. He kept bleeding from his nose and actually fell down several times before it was all over. The Matador bent the first sword he tried to use to finish off the bull and had to get another. Now I am a guy who like to hunt and kill many different life forms but I did not enjoy watching that bull fight. Maybe I was watching an amateur who was in the ring for the first time. We were actually in Cancun for this.

My question or observation is that the Picador actually was spearing the bull so deep that he hit the bulls lung each time with the spear. That would explain all of the blood coming out of the bulls nose for the rest of the fight.

Has anyone else seen this while at a bull fight?

Ron L

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Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

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Originally posted by RIP:

Wish I could find the pic of the matador riding the bull horn by the seat of his pants.

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http://www.briantaylor.com/images/jokes/Matador_400h.jpg

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Thank you very much Sir! Or "buy a buy a donkey, Bwana!" as we say when we mix Afrikaans and Swahili. Or, Baie, baie dankie! Many, many thanks!

The e-pith-OH-ME! of a bad day. A really, really bad day. A very, very bad day.

Lessee, in Afrikaans that might be:

'N waar, waar worst dag!

Hello,
Not sure if it is true today or not, but some years ago, the bull fighter who had reached the height of his sport/profession was the highest paid athelete in the world and was paid w/ a great many jewels, gold, etc. Perhaps someone who knows could verify this rumor. I would say he earns his money.
Favor center!!
dsiteman

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Originally posted by interboat:

I might add that, in my opinion, big game hunters who make derisive comments about bullfighters are in the same class as trap shooters who make derisive comments about big game hunters.

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Well said, and well said to Ray also.

I think some of you testosterone laddden keyboard operators, who may have shot a Buffalo or two, should rethink your comments.

Walking around in the bush in Africa, with an armed PH, and armed Game Scout and maybe an armed assistant is not exactly the same thing as standing in the middle of a Bull Ring with a pillow case and a sword.

Why not try going into the hills north of Monterey, in Mexico and try and hunt one of the feral fighting bulls that live in the bush there? Leave your support system and your backup at home and see if you really have the cahones you think you do.

I might add that if the same proportion of hunters were injured and killed by Cape Buffalo as people in the Bull Ring this would be an awfully bare forum.

Sniping a Buff from hiding hardly qualifies one to judge anothers courage.

interboat,
I was by no means doubting you.. I just found it interesting enough to research & found no reference to africa.

The spanish fighting bull charges with its head up & eyes open until just prior to striking. This started out as a pretty lame thread, but is progressing very nicely!!LOL.
As a wee tyke in the very early 60's in the San Joachuin (sp) valley near Fresno,Ca. We used to get a TV station out of TJ, which broadcast the bull fights every Sunday. As a pre teen, after moving onto a cow/calf grass ranch I began to pursue bull riding, was afforded the opportunity on a high school trip to Mexico City to participate in a demonstration of "bull fighting", put on for tourists using a weanling calf of no more than 200 pounds, scrappy little rascals even as babies!rode bulls till I was too crippled to get on any more & have since prioritized hunting cape buffalo (once you hunt them you will always hunt them)
Apparently from an early age I seem to be inexorably mixed up with the "ox".
Comparing apples to oranges denigrates both of these proud specimens. IMHO.

Mike

Mickey1,
Thanks for the tip on the feral fighting bulls in the hills of Monterey. I want one.

Seriously, y'all, this has been an enlightening thread, for which I am very grateful. It has piqued my new-found interest in bullfighting to a feverish pitch.

A couple of months ago I picked up, at the local Border's Books, Ernest Hemingway's _Death in the Afternoon_, as well as _The Dangerous Summer_(intro by James A. Michener), when I found them right next to _Hemingway in Africa_, by Christopher Ondaatje.

Both of the Hemingway bull fighting books are rich with technical details, BM, BS, and photos galore.

I have a new respect for both the Matador, and El Toro, or toro de lidia, ganado bravo, ... Thanks for that thumbnail on Toro, Nick.

Now I want to take in a bullfight in Spain, Portugal, Mexico, wherever I can get to first.

I will not be taking a pillow case and a sword on my next cape buffalo sojourn however.

Bull fighting! What a wonderful pageant of BS. Yes indeed I would call it a sport, a spectator sport, for watching the artiste/professional athelete extrordinaire. And it is an artform involving the basic elements that allowed the human race to arise from the primordial.

And there is nothing wrong with celebrating this. The hamburger is not wasted, I am sure.

I find Bull fights sad and cruel. the last ones I went to, in Mazatlan, were attended about 50-50 locals and tourists. You could tell them apart because the locals cheered the Bullfighter and the tourists cheered the Bull.

They have these young would be Bull Fighters that run around and tease the Bull and get him tired. One Bull took 5 of them out and they had to be carried out of the Arena. To the cheers of the crowd.

My host said that they do this for free to show off for there friends and girlfriends.


Rip

Hunting the feral Bulls is quite a thrill. No guides, no back up. Just you and the animals. Picture Deer hunting where the Deer charge you half of the time. You are likely to get charged by unwounded animals when they see you more often than not. They kill Donkeys, Horses, Pickups and people on a very regular basis.

What the hell did I start here!!! Montero, you're right, my mistake, the Matadors are definetly NOT sissy's.....BUT they do dress like they are, sorry! I can't help but to feel a bit sorry for the bull, especially when speared in the sholders from horse-back, you can see them getting weaker by the minute.
I do disagree about the cape buffalo running away, I think that they would grind the Matador into the ground before he knew it.