can a 500 bpe be rebarrelled by a quality maker to 500 ne. ? Can any of the rifles that were originally black powder rifles be rebarrelled of nitro express loads safely?
I can buy a 500 bpe snap action Woodward for good money, have it rebarrelled in England and still save a fist full of money.
lb404

lb 404. I WOULD CALL J.J. PERODEAU AT CHAMPLINS AND ASK HIM. I HAVE SEEN SOME DOUBLES HE HAS REBARRELED AND YOU COULD NOT TELL THEM FOOM AN ORIGINAL BRITTISH SET. I SAW A RIGBY REBARRELED BY WESTLEY RICHARDS THAT DID NOT LOOK NEAR AS GOOD AS J.J.'S WORK. THE SOLDERING,RIB AND SIGHT WORK WAS NOT NEAR AS GOOD AS J.J.'S. PLEASE POST HIS REPLY AS THAT WOULD BE GOOD TO KNOW.

Re-barreling is big money, but you can ask for free!

I have also seen JJ's "Sleeving" work and it looks great! However we are not talking cheap here!

I would be concerned about the 500 BPE action as far suitable for your 500 NE? But then, JJ would know.

Ya know that NIB 450/400 3 inch that Butch is offering is probably less than a sleeving job will set you back!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 04-28-2002).]

I should think that would be "No."

The advent of cordite and the Nitro Express cartridges brought about a search for better steels for the actions. The BP/BPE guns just couldn't take the pounding.

More improvements were made after WWII. For best quality regarding the strength of steel and even less weight for stronger rifles, one would probably best stick to 1950's and later manufacture.

An original BPE double should be treasured as is and used with BPE loads such as suggested in Graeme Wright's book: _Shooting the British Double Rifle_.

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RAB

RAB,
Much of what you said I believe is true; however, the biggest steel improvements were made in the barrels not the action. The actions were strenthened by means of various third fasteners, side clips, cross bolts, etc. In reality the damascus steel barrels of the old BP guns are stronger than their cordite counterparts at the breech end. The strength of the damacus barrel is much lower at the muzzle end however.

Therefore the two BIG issues with converting a BP to Nitro are:

1.) Action is almost certainly not reinforced and will therefore begin to shoot of the face ASAP with the Nitro loads. Although the old Jones underlever is a pretty tough if ugly (my opinion) and awkward lock up.
2.) The damascus steel barrels of the BP rifle are TOO WEAK at the muzzle and prone to rupture with Nitro loads.

Therefore to rebarrel with Nitro proofed barrels as this poster suggests only covers one to the two issues. However, if he can find a Gunsmith to perform the work, what can I say it is his money. I would buy a nitro gun to begin with.

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 04-28-2002).]

The problem is finding a underlever-snapaction in a nitro express in less than 600 N.E. I saw a woodward 500 BPE that was so sweet, had the snapaction and was begging to be redone. The engraving alone would cost thousands of dollars.the price of similarly built NE gun would be 20-30K. I think that many old NE double rifles were rebarrelled or a new set of barrels made and though it is expensive, I dont think it would be 30K. My worry is if the action ITSELF is strong enough to take the hit for calibers such as 375 flanged mag, or the 450-400 3"?????
lb404

Todd E,
Even some of the old shotguns and BPE's would have had third and "fourth" fasteners, and have solid steel (fluid steel, deep drilled bar steel) instead of damascus barrels made of iron wrappings.

But the action includes the chopper lumps (demi-bloc) or mono-block. The lumps are integral to the barrels in the former, so I feel that action steels must surely have been improved also. The bearing surfaces of the action have to be of equal quality on both sides of the joint or they will be quickly ruined and go off face.

I would think it absolute folly to convert a BPE to NE. Shoot it and use it as it is. Swoon over it like Ross Seyfried does.

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RAB

lb404, The BPE can be re-barreled to a lot smaller round safely, things like 303 Brit, 30-40 KR, but not large cases that have a lerge rim area. These rounds do not have enoug reverse pressure to cause set back, and the side walls of the barrels are thick enough that they can be quite effectively contained. However, I will have to agree with DaggRon, and Todd E, I would buy a Nitro proofed rifle to start with, or use the BPE as it was intended.

Rusty has it right we are not talking about re-barreling a K-Mart Rimington here, this baby is going to cost you about the same as a good used Nitro proofed 500NE by the time you buy the rifle, then have it re-barreled, and you will end up with a rifle that has no collector value. check out the prices here www.champlinarms.com/services.cfm The price for re-barreling with chopper lump (dimiblok) barrels will set you back $7500, and to sleeve in the barrels, Mono-block, will be $3000 up. Add either of these price to the cost of buying the rifle in the first place and you have a hand full of money, enough to buy, as Rusty says, a new Butch Searcy rifle made to fit you, and out of the best steel money can buy!

If we were all of the same opinions, there would be only rifle made, so what ever blows your skirt up, go for it!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 04-29-2002).]

MacD37,

Glad to see you back. Hope all your concerns became small ones.

Will

lb404,
Some of the old BPE rifles were, in fact, nitro proofed and others may be capable of the 14 ton pressures of smokeless powder..Some can be hardened, if you have one then explore these possibilities...I had a massive actioned Army/Navy .577 that I'd shoot anything in and it had been English Nitro proofed from BP, later in life...It was truly a killer of bad animals and people that shot it or carried it more than two miles.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

RAB,

Not to argue but chopper lumps are part of the barrel. The monoblock is I suppose one could say part of the action. I was speaking in general terms in my previous post. It was not my intention to split hairs. I have seen believe it or not BP doubles built in the 20 century that simply needed to be regulated for Nitro loads. These rifles were built as BP because the original owners must have felt that in the tropics (or where ever they were) the BP was safer than cordite. These "special" BP guns were identical to their nitro loaded counterparts in all ways except their regulation load. If he could find one of these animals the cost would not be as great (he would only have to reregulate).

If the action is soft it must be case hardened for the nitro load. This will almost certainly distort the action and possibly ruin it.

So I will say it again. Buy a nitro proofed gun and forget the BP conversion. If for no other reason than to reduce the stress in your life.

Todd E

Ray,
Yep, but the Nitro proofs on the BP guns were usually "Nitro for Black" loads which were lesser loads of cordite than the full NE loads, in a transitional period mostly.

Todd E,
Yep, some old fogeys insisted on BP loads with newer guns around the turn of the century, the thinking being that the BP loads were less heat sensitive than cordite.

Still, with all the uncertainties and expense involved, the question of converting BPE doubles to NE doubles is really only academic, regardless of destroyed collector value if this were undertaken.

A BPE double is the only kind of BP firearm that could appeal to me. It would be a pity to sacrifice a good one.

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RAB

Todd,
I know a number of smiths who regularly harden both double rifle actions and Mauser actions and yes one can ruin an action if the folks performing the deed don't know what they are doing.

With todays technolgy it seldom if ever happens that an action is ruined ...Rick Stickley has had about 100 Browning BSS's hardened without incident, and Echols has all his Mauser actions hardened..The trick is you soften them, shape and polish them while soft and then re-harden them according to D'Arcy..I have had a couple of actions done in this manner and they were fine.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by Todd E:
RAB,

Not to argue but chopper lumps are part of the barrel. The monoblock is I suppose one could say part of the action. I was speaking in general terms in my previous post.
Todd E

---

Todd, where did you see anything about chopper-lump , and Mono-block being the same thing?

CHOPPER-LUMP, and DEMI-BLOCK are the same thing! The only difference between the two is the name. Chopper-lump is the name given by the British, and Demi-block is the Europien (actually the French, meaning "Half block") name for the same thing. You are right the Mono-block is a solid piece fitted to the action, then the barrels are sleeved in, and actually is stronger, if done properly, than chopper-lump. The Mono-block, after machineing, can be hardened to far greater tensel strength than the lumps on the barrel steel, which must remain ductile. If I'm not mistaken, and I could very well be, the MONO-BLOCK system was first used, in new guns, by Barretta, but the idea came from the gun smith's practice of cutting off old barrels, and sleeving in new ones on the old barrel butts, to avoid all the fitting, which had already been done.

Thanks Will, but I'm not really back, just had a day, or two, at home, and lurked the net some, and couldn't stay out of anything "double" you know how that goes. We still have no news with the transplant for my daughter, and she is failing fast.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

MacD37,
I appreciate your explanation to Todd E. I understand quite well. Thanks for the further description.

Best Regards,

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RAB

Mac & RAB,

Where exactly did I say that chopper lumps and monoblocks are the same? They are two very different things. Thanks for the explanation Mac, but it was wasted on me I already knew that. I was only trying to explain to RAB that chopper lumps are in fact part of the barrel forging.

Todd E

Todd E,
Look back at the post you are needlessly correcting me on. MacD37 must have read my meaning properly.

I said the chopper lumps were integral to the barrel, and before that I did say the lumps were part of the action. They certainly are. The bearing surface on the lump that mates with the hinge pin and the bites in the lumps that the underbolts lock into (fasteners) are part of the action. Thus the chopper lumps (demi-bloc) are definitely part of the action, but they are integral to the barrels.

The mono-block is indeed a separate action part until it is sleeved onto the barrels.

This is really a very simple concept.

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RAB

Back to the topic...
Most BPE and Nitro for black and Full nitro used very different bullet weights and rifleing twist..
For instance.... .500 BPE used a 360 or 400 grain projectile while the Nitor for black used a 440 and a full nitro 580. So it taint just a matter of proving and reregulation.
Aaron