Gentlemen,

I have a number of friends here who love double rifles, and often bring them here to our indoor range to shoot.

I have shot practically everyone brought here, up to the 600 NE.

I am one of those who have never really felt comfortable shooting side by side, shotguns or rifles. I have been shooting bolt rifles as far back as memory serves me, and I do feel confident in using them.

On many occasions, while hunting, after I have shot a lion or a buffalo that has disappeared from our sight, the subject of a double and its advantages gets discussed.

Luckily, we never needed it, as the advantages of a well placed shot with a scoped rifle made that unnecessary.

Sometimes we even discussed using a shotgun when after a wounded cat. And again, I have always decided to stick with a rifle I know how to use.

A point which does not seem to get much attention is shooting accurately.

You can fire as many shots as you have, but if none of them is placed properly, it really makes no difference.

One well placed shot is what all the game is about.

I am afraid I do not feel confortable enough to do that with a double.

O.K., ALF,
The men in white coats are coming to take you away ... I'm just silly, but you are certifiably insane!

NE 450 No2

Hey fellow are you sure you are not trying to just find more reasons to use those doubles? As you know I dont have a double at this point but I certainly plan to fix that deficiency. However, what I have found out about many things and certainly rifles is that it is difficult to have the best solution to all hunting situations and animals within just one rifle. Do you think that perhaps the best solution would be to have the bolt action for those situations normally requiring shots potentially 100 to 400 yards where a tack driver would be helpful and the double for the close work where you require a very quick pointing, fast shooting rifle with stopping power. Just my opine.

CFA

CFA,

There is a bolt action double rifle on the market.

I will try to dig the name of the maker and post it here.

450#2

Your post is directed at men who are imminently practical in their approach. Rip, Alf, John S and the others are nothing if not staid pillars of properness and decorum. They will always take the road that leads to the Navy Blue Blazer, Gray slacks and Black wingtips.

They will let not ideas of spoof or difference invade the temples of their logic and oneness with conformity. Marching along in their Gray Flannel Suits like the Lemmings of the North they will not give up the cherished symbol of sameness they share with fellow travelers, the Bolt Action Rifle. Leave them in their safe and protected house they have built out of closed minds allow them to grovel in the moss and mud of the earth instead of flying upon the winds of the sky.

You can not do more than you have, open the door and show them the light. It is they that must choose to leave the darkened and familiar closet and step out into the brightness of the Sun. Like children wanting to cross the street for the first time they start and then run back to the folds of their mothers skirt, to hide their eyes from the Dragons.

To such as them a rifle is but a tool, like a shovel or an axe, to be used and left behind. It is not a part of their soul, to be cherished and regalled as the named swords Narsil and Excalibur.

Saeed

I have read an article about that rifle but as you say I cant see myself being comfortable with that.

BTW is it possible to get on your list for viewing the African tapes that are circulating?

CFA

.

What this has to do with Africa, I am not sure, but have to give credit to Mickey for his wit.

Mickey 1
WELL SAID.
I have tried to enlighten [free from ignorance, prejudice, etc.] the Flat Earth Society, as I have sailed to the end and returned. I have offered my discovery as Columbus offered the New World. Unbelievable as it may seem, the benefits are there for anyone who will make the journey.
There have always been disbelievers, and those who refuse to accept reality.

A doubles are wonderful rifles, but alas, I could die at the horns of a buffalo by missing with my second shot from both rifles.

Let's see........

A bolt gun gets arrogantly dimissed as a mere "tool" along with shovels, axes, and related stuff, while the double is in some sort of elevated position, above the mere "tool" classification? I suspect that judgement mostly comes about because of romantic notions concerning the good ol' days, and a facsination British gun and hunting concepts.

Not all of us care about this stuff, I'm sorry to say, and the truth is, if fine bolt action rifles fall into the "tool" catagory, than surely so does the double, and the double is a limited "tool" at that. Romance be damned.

A couple of years ago, I used a scoped .375 H&H on a spring grizzly hunt. I ended up shooting my bear literally at point-blank range (twice) and if there was some drawback in the way of speed or lethal effect with the bolt, my experience didn't exactly "bear" that theory out.

That same season, I used the same .375 H&H (scope and all) to iron-out my best kudu at some 300 yds. in Zimbabwe. Now, a double would have worked just as well on the grizzly at close range, but certainly no better. However, the double would have been a great handicap on the kudu in my opinion. At that point, the double would have descended into the "boat anchor" classification, while at least the bolt rifle remained - as ever - the reliable versatile "tool" that it has always been. My kind of tool... The bolt is indeed more versatile, and there is no other logical conclusion that may be reached.

AD

450#2

Alas a message falling on deaf ears. Oh well, I'm off to tilt at more windmills.

Allen
Is there any reason that you think a scoped double could not have shot your Kudu at 300 yards?
Also what broke on your "big" rifle that caused you to use a 300 win on your buff?
To all you non-belevers, remember to compare apples to apples. Comparing a scoped small or medium bore bolt rifle to an iron sighted big bore double is missing the point. What can a 270 bolt rifle do that a 7x65R double cannot. And what is the real field difference between a scoped bolt 375 H&H and a scoped 375 Flanged?

Gentlemen:



Let me wade in here with my own particular slant. I have had the opportunity to work on some bolt and single shot rifle built by the best makers around. These rifles are built every bit as well as any rifle ever made and better than most. My opinion is that the bolt gun is probably the more versatile hunting arm. I have also had the oppertunity to work on some pretty fair double rifles, as well. A .318 Westley drop lock, 375 flanged Holland's and a Purdey .500 made for some Indian royal. Those were the best of a number of doubles. The double is a specialized rifle that holds a niche that none can match.



I do confess that I'm not the hunter that some on this forum are. For me it is all about the gun. I love the way a well made gun looks, feels, handles, shoots and smells. I prefer bolt guns, but that .318................Well,



By the way Mike, I enjoyed your eloquent post and your Don Quixote reference. Well written prose equals a well made arm.

What can a 270 bolt rifle do that a 7x65R double cannot.

I can't really believe that is a serious question.

However, if it is a serioius question then I think you fall into the area I previously outlined, that is, your shooting and hunting scenarios have drifted towards those which make your 7 X 65R suitable.

A great amount of the shooting I have done over the years has been with bench style rifles in 270 or 300 Winchester. Shooting is long range kangaroos over sand bag rests on the vehicle. Now I might ask "what can an accurate sporter weight 270 do that I can't do with the bench style 270". Of course the answer is nothing with the shooting conditions I have described.

However, the accurate sporter weight 270 is a much better proposition when taken all round as it will also do an excellent job across the sandbags on the long range roo shooting. But the 13 pound bench style 270 with 28 inch barrel might put me at a disadvantage if I have to go sheep hunting etc.

And so it is with your double 7 X 65R. Your shooting conditions and what you expect from a rifle are satisfied by your double 7 X 65R.

Earlier you said everything could be done with one bullet in the 270 or 7 X 65R. That will be true from your perspective but it is not true for me. So I am at a disadvanatge with the double 7 X 65R.

Mike

Being wrong handed (left handed, dominant right eye) shooting a double in an "emergency" situation is too hazardous to contemplate. I've used double shotguns most of my life but fortunately I can handle a charging pheasant without the threat of loss of life.



I could buy a double and put a scope on it but then what would be the point. (rhetorical).



I'll stick to my multi tasking bolt actions. Double rifles are nice in a nostalgic kind of way. Worth collecting (and using) if you have the time and money.

450# 2: I was "sorta" with you until you mentioned "scoped doubles" which to me go together like "mag" wheels on a Rolls-Royce or the truth and democrats. I had a friend who had a Franz Sodia built double in 338 ( yeah, I know a 338!) Win Mag, complete with european claw mounts and a hideously large german scope. The absolute best group he could get was 2.5" @ 100 yards. Take that out to the ranges that John S and Allen mentioned and I dare say that a double is an iffy proposition at best. I would DEARLY love to have a double. Were I to be given a choice for hunting buffalo, elephant, etc between a bolt and a double, I too am a romantic at heart. BUt Allen is right, the bolt is much more versatile. SO GET BOTH! jorge

jorge
Thanks for your reply. I would agree that 2.5" out of a bolt action at 100 yards does not a long range rifle make...However did he ever test his double at 200 yards.
I have found that the groups from my 9,3 are not double the size of the 100 yard groups. Also how good were the individual bbl groups?
Did he ever have any extraction problems. Do you know how many rounds he has fired, I am curious how well the Magnum double holds up, as Chapuis makes a 300 Win Mag double on the same frame they use for the 375 H&H.

Stay with me a little longer, at least untill I can test my 9,3x74R at 200 and 300 yards.

Mike375
In regards to the double rifle and different bullet weights. I have found once again that popular beliefs may be wrong. As an example my 450 No2 shoots 350gr, 480gr, and 500gr bullets equally well. All hit with the sights and shoot good groups at 100 yards [longest distance shot on paper] and all will hit my 200 yard rock with the same aiming point. The same is true of my 450/400 3 1/4" with 300gr and 400gr. bullets.
In my 9,3x74R I have shot bullets from the Norma factory 193gr FP to factory Superior 300gr Swift A Frame. I have shot several different factory 286gr loads. All shot good enough to hunt with at 100 yards, the longest range tested.
I have shot 286 Nosler Partitions and 285gr Hawk .035jkt bullets at 200 yards on paper. The groups could be covered with the palm of my hand. With my reloads 286 NP, 286Woodleigh SP and 285 Hawks, [all with the same powder charge, by the way] will hit my 200 yard rock with the same aiming point.
Like everyone here I never thought of the double as a long range rifle, however my use of them over the past 5 to 6 years has changed my perception and made me realize just how good double rifles are.
Futher tests will determine if in fact they are viable hunting rifles for ranges out to the effective terminal ballistics of the cartridge they are chambered for.

I think most all of us could benefit from looking at both types of rifles here, rather than steadfastly refusing to own both types. There is a place for everything and if a scoped double can be made to shoot 3" groups from BOTH barrels at 250yds then it would/should be considered as something for some types of longer range work. It would also have to be chambered in a caliber that offers long range power, not some 2300fps version of a 30/30. Possibly not for everyone but for a keen double rifle fanatic...why not. For serious hunting of dangerous game a big bore double would be fun, but whether or not it would be better is more up to the user than the rifle. I think owning both a double and a bolt rifle, and hunting with both of them is far better than limiting oneself to just the double. If your going to limit yourself to one type, the bolt rifle wins.

odie
I am confused What difference does a double,or bolt rifle make to your dominate eye? If you are saying you cannot shoot an iron sighted double, but you can shoot a scoped bolt rifle, then does it not mean that you could not shoot a iron sighted bolt rifle either???
If a scope is the answer for you then you could just scope a double.
I shoot long guns and pistols right handed. I am left eye dominate. I use my right eye for long guns and my left eye for handguns. Works for me.
I fail to understand the aversion people have to a scoped double. Mounting a scope on a double gives you the same advantages as mounting one on a bolt rifle.
The scope on my Chapuis is mounted low to the bore and the stock is perfect for the height of the scope. My scoped Chapuis handles better than any scoped bolt rifle I have ever used. That is why I like it so much.

"As an example my 450 No2 shoots 350gr, 480gr, and 500gr bullets equally well. All hit with the sights and shoot good groups at 100 yards [longest distance shot on paper] and all will hit my 200 yard rock with the same aiming point."



Well that is far better than the typical 45 bolt gun in 458 Win, 450 Ackley and 460 Wby. I have no experience with the 458 Lott.



Based on my experience of the 45 calbres if you have bullets from 350 grains to 500 grains all hitting your rock at 200 yards, then it would be a very big rock!!!



If the barrel is good and loads are reduced on the lighter bullets then you can get them to come togther...



But with full loads the 458, 460 and also the 375 H&H will put lighter bullets well above the heavier bullets. 458 Winchester and 460 Wby will often have 350 grainers from 3 to 12 inches above the 500 grainers and mainly from 6 inches above and beyond. The 375 H&H is similar but to a smaller degree with light bullets as compared to the 300 grainers. 235 grainers will often be several inches above 300 grainers and if the barrel is not real good they will also be to either the left or right.



Your rock must be a big rock for 350 and 500 grainers to hit the rock with the same aiming point.



Mike

NE 450, long story, but my .458 became unuseable due to a trigger problem that was caused by inept gunsmithing back home. Of course, I know, no double has ever developed a mechanical failure of any kind.......

I think the double is best restricted to the use it was originally designed for - stopping dangerous game at close quarters. It's not the perfect "all-around" rifle, despite wishful thoughts to the contrary. In that catagory, the bolt gun wins hands-down. And as to how double rifle barrels may be regulated to be perfectly sighted-in at close range, yet still deliver tight groups at long range (let alone hit point-of-aim) is a problem that defies physics.

Mickey, I think it's time you climbed down off your self-errected high horse......

AD

Nitro,

I mentioned in my post to 450 No 2 that you can bring them close together with reduced loads on lighter bullets.

However, my experience is that with full loads for each bullet weight the 375 and particulary 45 calibre the light bullets will shoot well above the heavy bullets.

I have found that in general big case capacities for the bore size are more likely to place different loads together and also more likely to place a shot from a cold clean barrel or a barrel with cold hard fouling...into or near the group..than is the cases with calibres that have a small case capacity for the bore size.

If someone gave me a 458 to test tomorrow then I would feel safe betting that the rifle would put 350 grainers well above the point of impact of the 500 grainers...well above meaning at least 6 inches.

Mike

Mike375
The rock looks slightly bigger than a normal briefcase. I will measure it the next time I go to the lease. Also I will shoot some rounds on paper at 200 which is a more valid test.
As far as lighter bullets hitting higher.
I have "rediscovered" what may have been known by the British back in the 1920's and 1930's. This happened by accident. I noticed in a book I have of an early Westley Richards catalogue that they offered 300gr and 400gr loads for the 450/400 and 385gr and 520gr [if I remember correctly] for the 476 Westley Richards.
When I first test fired my 450 No2 I loaded the 350gr Hornady RN with the same powder charge as the 480 and 500 gr loads. I knew I would be "practicing" on deer and pigs and was hoping to find a useable load. Much to my suprise the 350's shot into the same group as the heavier bullets at all distances. The velocity of the 350's was 2330fps. If you check the Hornady loading manuel you will see that the drop charts for a 350gr at 2300 is almost exactly the same as their 500gr bullet at 2100 fps. Thus the sight leaves would be good for both bullets at all ranges.
These first loads were with IMR 3031. This has proven to be true with IMR4831 and with Reloader-15. As long as the powder charge is the same, what ever "regulates" the heavy bullets, also shots the 350's into the same group with equal accuracy.
The same was proven true with my 450/400 3 1/4". The 400gr and 300gr loads regulate together with the same charge of IMR4831. Strangly the velocity of the 300gr bullets in the 400 are slightly above 2300fps.
I call this the 75% rule. Take a bullet that is 75%[or as close as you can get] the weight of the standard bullet, use the same powder charge and PRESTO! you have a load for lighter game.
The British must have known this. One of the advantages of Hollands 375 [H&H and Flanged] was that the 235gr, the 270gr, and the 300gr. would all shoot to the same impact point.
I would like other big bore double rifle shoters to try my 75% Rule theory out and report your results.

Mike my experience with single barreled rifles has been the same as yours, different weight bullets shoot to different heights. In my 45/70 Ruger No1 300gr, 350gr, and 400gr bullets shoot to radically different heights at 100 yards with the same powder charge of 3031.
Why the double rifle behaves differently I do not know.

450 Nitro,

Yes, you do need to use paper to test.

You will also note that I said reducing loads on light bullets in big bores will bring them togther.

458 Winchesters will typically place 400 grain Speers and 500 grain Hornadys very close together when loaded with 70 grains of 3031 burn rate or 4064 burn rate.

375s will do the same with 300 grainers and 220 grainers. That is, the 220 grainer is given the same charge as the top load for the 300 grainer. However, load the 220 grainer to full pressure and it will typically be way above the 300 grainer.

Mike

Allen I was just curious as anytime I hear of a gun problem I like to investigate the cause. It also helps me justify always taking at least two rifles on every trip.
You did good work with you 300 while it was "subbing" for your 458.
Any rifle can have problems, and be put out of service, I had no nefarious reason for asking the problem.

I have owned 2 458's. After using my doubles quite a bit I feel anything I can do with an iron sighted 458 I can do better with my 450 No2 double.
A scope [I like QD mounts]certainly adds to the versatility
of the rifle. I have handled several big bore double rifles with scopes mounted, both "new made" and British doubles. When the scopes were mounted low the way they should be it did not effect the balance or fine handling of the double in any way. If I was buying a "new made" double rifle I WOULD have a scope in QD mounts fitted to the rifle. [That is on rifles of 500 or less].
I wish my 450/400 had a scope....some day it just might.

450#2: Nope, I never saw him shoot it at 200 and as far as the extaction problems, not to my knowledge. However, I do think that making doubles to shoot rimless cases is in the same category as the democrats and truth. It's just asking for trouble I think. finally, to me a double makes it's money at what it can do at 10 feet and not 200 yards. My bolt can do both but, Man, I would love to have a double! jorge

NitroX

From your posting:

Mike375 are you trying to say your lighter bullets are hitting a lot higher than the heavier bullets in all of your "458, 460 and 375s"?

I have owned two 460s (Mark Vs), three 458s (M70s) and countless 375s. I have also had direct exerience with two other 460s and indirect experience with one 460. Apart from the three 458s I have owned I have been directly invoved with 6 others.

I have also had Tobler 375 barrels on a switch barrel bench guns and tested along with 338, 340 Wby (with 1 in 10 and 1 in 12 twist) and 358 STA. The 358 STA was so good another two barrels were made by Tobler. All 358 STA barrels were 1 in 14 and .357 groove.

So I have had some experience and I stand by what I said on point of impact.

Mike

MIke,

I am playing around with a friend's 375 H&H. He wanted very fast lighter bullets to shoot in it.

We did not have any lighter than 300 grains of any make, so I turned down some of our own Walterhog bullets to 240 grains.

And sure enough, they shot about 6 inches higher than the 300 grains it was originally the rifle was sighted for.

The surprising thing was I used a starting load from the Hodgdon manual, with 80 grains of BL-C2, which according to the book was supposed to give me around 2800 + - I don't have the book with me here, so cannot tell exactly.

Anyway, our load was over 3000 fps, and 3 shots went into just over a half inch!

He said that was just perfect for him. Now I have to make him a few more bullets.

When shooting a buffalo at 50 yards, a bolt gun is fine by me. I really like the idea of 4 shots without reloading as the buffalo approaches.

But when the buffalo is 15 or 20 feet out, a bolt gun becomes a single shot because the buffalo can reach the shooter faster than he can work the action. For really close shots I will prefer to have a double since it gives me 2 shots, as opposed to a single shot from a bolt gun.

In the end, we hunt to have fun. Pick whatever rifle you think is fun to hunt with and go at it.

jorge
Thanks for the info. Like most others I got double rifles for their advantages in the "last 10 feet", and I thought I might be able to hit something as big as a Buffalo as far away as maybe 60 yards or so. I have been suprised.
I have discovered there is more to the double than traditionaly thought.

Well, I'm off to SCI on Wens, where I'll be able to "fondle" all the toys we've been talking about. I just know that out there somewhere there's a forgotten double ( British of course!) in someone's closet and I'll be able to buy it for 500 bucks! THEN I'll stoically wait for a buff/lion/elephant or hippo to close to within 10 feet before I pull the trigger....... Can't blame a guy for dreaming! jorge

Boy this thread took off while I was gone....I don't see how this question could churn up so much interrest...

I have no doubt when the Buff gets in the shortrows that a double is the ONLY way to go, been there, done that....but I do not feel at a disadvantage with a bolt, as I don't intend for him to get that close in the first place, but then that may be over confidence talking and I am over confident, but that may someday be my down fall, it nearly has been a couple of times, I just don't know how that happened .....

Lord, I love to stand a charge, must be the Mark Sullivan in me Some folks bungy jump, some drive race cars, ride bulls, swim with sharks, all these things scare the heck out of me, but a animal charge gives me a wonderful bloody rush..most won't admit thats what they hunt for, they keep it a secret! Others for different reasons and I have heard them all, its a very interresting subject if everyone is honest in their conversation....I will qualify that I have never orchestrated a charge on purpose and never will, that is what gets one stomped, and its not ethical in my books.

Different strokes for different folks, seems appropo....

500grs-
When a buffalo is coming, really coming, they are all a single shot from 15 or 20 feet out. Those few feet go by in about 2 seconds or less and you or anyone else ain't gonna have time for more than one shot.

This string has proved an idea I put forth in my book, (NOT FINISHED), and something I have tried many times! That is you can ask ten people around a camp fire, all very experienced hunters, and shooters, anything about a double rifle, and you will get ten very different answers! Only maybe one of those ten answers will be in the ball park of true! It is simply that there are so few folks around who really understand double rifles, and here I mean side by side double rifles, that it is no wonder at the misinformation spouted by those who do not know as much as they think they do! The reason I say side by side in particular is, the over under is a whole different animal, when compared to a S/S, or a bolt, or single shot!

I find there are many who have extensive experience with bolt rifles, and no experience with doubles, and vice versa.
What I don't find are many who have extensive experience with both! The bolt rifle person tends to know all the idiocencracies of that system, and try to compare their limited knowledge of the double. With this scnario, certainly, they will find more quality in the system they are most knowledgeable on. This is because the only things one hears about, most times, are the negatives of the unfamiliar system, so that is all they know. This is indicated by the misconception that a double rifle is only accurate to 25 ft, or some such non-sense,that they are only capable of minute of orange grouping at anything past 30 yds, or that a magazine rifle is better because it has four or five rounds in the magazine. Neither of these misconceptions are in the remotest sense true.

It is going to be certain, you will find more people who, really, know bolt actions, are as devided as those who are devided about doubles, and bolt rifles. The bolt people always argue about CRF vs. PF, fast vs slow, heavy bullets vs slow, plastic vs wood, scope vs irons. These misconceptions are just as rediculous as the magazine vs double rifle controvercy. The reverse is not true, because there are not so many who differ on the different merits of the different types of s/s doubles. The occasional disagreement about ejectors, or extractors, or auto safety, vs manual safety, about covers it! Of course there is the staunch purest, who breaks int tears with the mere mention of a scope on a double rifle!

I find most of the people, I know, who have 40 or 50 yrs of experience with both types of rifle, are far more accepting of the two types for general hunting. I have both, and I hunt with both, and I find one is as good as the other for general HUNTING, and that the double has no peer when it comes to close quarters with a large animal that wants to fight! I own Bolt rifles that money couldn't buy from me, I own doubles that are the same, also singleshots, and simi-autos that fall into the same sack. There is nothing wrong with any of them, but regardless of what most think some are better than others for a given purpose!

There is one thing that can be said about a double rifle that can't be said of any other type of firarm, and that is, "The double rifle is the only firearm that was designed for only one purpose, and that is hunting" All others were origenally designed for self defense, in war, or home!

My take on this is, those who like bolt rifles will not be moved, in most cases, those who like double rifles, usually like both types, and can go either way, with equal expertese in their use! SOOooooooooooo, use what ever you like, and know that type inside, and out! My concearn is those who refuse to venture into the dangerous waters of the unknown,because of hear-say, like 450 #2's example of Columbus, and the words of his detractors!

I think old Winston said it best to describe this string!

"I can always learn, but am not always willing to be tought"
Winston Churchill

I'm far from an expert but I have taken game with both bolt actions and a double, in the same caliber, so I do have some thoughts on the subject. First the obvious, the double is better when you are facing a charge, the bolt better when you are shooting across the canyon. Better doesn't mean the other won't work.
Second, Mac hit the nail on the head. The double is a hunting rifle. For hunting minute of angle isn't important, minute of heart - lung triangle is. Both will put a round into an animal's vitals at ranges that most hunters should confine themselves to.
The difference is one of style, and style is personal. Personally, I'm going to use my double more. Why, because I just like it.