Mike375

Your first reply made sense. Yes, full power loads, at higher velocity, yes will probably print higher. I was thinking of velocities around 2200 fps or maybe quite a bit less where the barrel jump starts to take affect.

Second reply - superfluous.

Do you know in all these thousands of comments of shooting kangaroos we have never seen one photo, just one picture to date.

Terry and all,
Boddington carved "minute of grapefruit" from his stone, not mine and minute of heart, lung, won't cut it with me either, I have been fortunate in how well my doubles have shot, but I would not own one that was not "minute of eye", I might have to stick one in an old daggas eye someday and I don't want a gun that confuses my aim by a the length of a grapefruit...and I have always been an accruacy nut, especially with iron sights....so if your double won't plunk'em in 2 inches max then send that puppy down the gunshow trail, with a grand addidos...The above is only my opinnion based on not a hell of a lot.

I also hunt with both. I've got a .470 double and several mauser actioned bolt guns one with a scope (.375H&H) and one with irons(.458Lott). Sometimes I hunt with the double sometimes the bolt. It's nice to have that option.

Gee's this is just another taste's great, less filling arguments. Of course some of the small bore doubles are plenty accruate to take a shot out to 200 yards and then some. Yes a well crafted double is a joy to behold. Then again so is a good bolt or single shot. I really don't care that much, it dose not keep me awake at night. I like the Idea of a 9.3 x 74R in a light double for sneaking around the lodge poles, but as much as I like the Idea, I don't like it enough to part with 10 grand to find out. I have to work a lot to put that kind of money in my back pocket. I rather spend it on a hunt.

Let me start by saying that some of my best friends shoot bolt actions. I even went to grade school with some of them and I used to go to their farms on Holidays and bring them 30-06 ammunition. I just want you to know that I am not prejudiced.

I once married a woman who shot a bolt action although the difference was too great to overcome and she went back to her people. You have to work extra hard to make a mixed marriage work. I heard she married a guy who liked Remingtons.

OUCH, DAMN that hurt. I just fell off that High Horse Allen was talking about.

Quote:

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Mickey, I think it's time you climbed down off your self-errected high horse......
AD

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Hey Allen, why don't you pull that plug of Redman out of your Ass and see if that improves your sense of Humour? By the way when you go to Home Depot to buy that new shovel get the one with the Red plastic handle. That way the wood won't warp or swell when it gets damp.

George Semel
Take a look at the 9,3x74R Chapuis. The list price on one is less than 5K. Mine weighs 7 1/4lbs without scope.

500 Grains
Your post addresses what I was trying to report I had learned from using my doubles. Which is basically that I have found no handicap to using the double when the game is NOT charging. Having only 2 shots in the rifle has not been a disadvantage. I have found that the double is just as fast as the bolt for those going AWAY shots. The technique is a litle different but I have not felt at any sort of FIREPOWER disadvantage. In fact I have found that the two immediate shots really help in going away situations too.
I am not stating theory just relating what I have learned.

I think two well aimed shots shot from the shoulder without the rifle leaving the shoulder are worth many badly aimed shots from a bolt action where the shooter needs to lower the rifle to cycle the action.

I am amazed from various hunting videos how many shooters need to lower their rifles to their wastes to cycle the bolt.

Haven't they practised reloading a bolt from the shoulder so it becomes second nature? Even if it means having to pull one's face backward to avoid getting a blow to the nose .

No need with a double, two shots instantly at the ready.

If it isn't down in two shots no doubt you will be needing more than the 4 or 5 in a bolt magazine.

I think most of us would agree the double rifle is superior in close quarters when the game is running TOWARD you. But how about other times, and even for non-dangerous game, that usually runs AWAY from you. In other words your average "normal" hunting.
Which is better, the two quick shots, with a pause for the reload giving 2 more quick shots, of the double, or the 3 to 5 rounds in a bolt rifle working the bolt after each shot with a longer pause for the reload and then 3 to 5 more shots, working the bolt between each shot.

After using both systems, what I will try to do here is discuss the differences and give my opinion on the differences.
I used bolt rifles for many years before I got my doubles. I got my doubles mainly for Africa [iron sighted British rifles] but liked them so well that I got a 9,3x74R double and scoped it [QD mounts]. So I have experience with big bore and medoum bore doubles as well as a scoped double.
For the last 5 to 6 years I have used my doubles for 99% of my hunting, including many times that they would not be the "traditional" rifle of choice. Such as spot and stalk backpack black bear hunts in Montana, Caribou hunts in Alaska, and much deer and pig hunting in TX. In all the hunting I have done with them I have never not got the animal because I was using a double, even when using the non scoped 450/400 in Montana and Alaska.
I have had a several multiple shot situations with the doubles and have learned the following "Manual of Arms"
With the double rifle you have several choices how you handle multiple shots.
First, where do you carry your extra ammo. Many people say they carry an extra round or two in the fingers of their hand [the one on the forestock].I never really tried this a great deal as I just used the system I developed when hunting with Ruger No1's. I use a buttstock shell carrier. On a rifle with a lot of recoil you need to use one with leather around the stock so it does not abrade your face durring recoil. [www.murrayleather.com] I use a buttstock shell carrier on my bolt rifles too.
With the double you have the following choices.
Shoot 2 reload 2
Shoot 1 reload 1
Shoot 2 reload 1
All are self explanatory except the shoot2 reload 1. I will explain. You decide to shoot an animal, or 2 animals. you shoot both bbls. you need to shoot again very quickly, so you just reload one bbl and get the shot off. Repeat as necessary.
I have used this technique several times when I have needed a 3rd shot in a hurry, and did not think I had time to load 2, much less shoot 2 after the reload, ie after loading 2 the animal would be out of sight, thus no shots would be imediately needed.
With a bolt rifle you just shoot and crank, shoot and crank, until you run dry, then reload.
But with the bolt rifle after you have shot 1 or 2 rounds, what do you do? Do you procede with less than a full magazine, or do you take the time to unload the chamber, fill the magazine, and rechamber a round. This takes a lot of time, attention and noise.
Which is the best system?
I hunted with my Blaser R-93 with a new 375 H&H 19 3/4" bbl the other day and it enlightened me.
I saw a pig rooting around from about 100 yards and put a stalk on it. When I got 31 yards away I noticed that there were other pigs with it. I fired my first shot at a quarting angle, trying not to hit the shoulder. At the shot the pig took off running bringing her closer to me. My second shot did not have enough lead, miss, my third shot [I am aiming to hit her in the head, do not want to mess up the meat you know] hit her in the lower jaw causing her to turn more my direction [not a "charge"].My forth shot hit her at the very back of the jaw and passed under the brain. She continued to run. The Blaser was empty, as she passed by me fairly close I reloaded the chamber of the Blaser from the buttstock shell carrier and gave chase. I had an oppertunity for a "Texas" heart shot but passed as I did not want to mess up the hams. I persued her a short way into some very thick brush. I stopped to reload the magazine, observed the blood trail and after a short track a shot to the head finished her.

I have had similar instances with my doubles and pigs [check my earlier posts]
My bolt rifle technique is pretty good, I have shot "doubles" on pigs twice with a bolt rife and 3 times with a double. When I say "doubles" on pigs I mean that 2 were killed within 2 to 3 seconds. I have even taken 3 pigs with my double 450 No2,although to shoot the 3rd I had to reload on the run to shoot number three. There have been many other times with my doubles I could have shot at least 2 but didnot because I did not need the meat. [I have NEVER shot a pig and left it lay].
So which is better the bolt or the double?
I have discovered that I prefer the double.
I have not found having only 2 shots in the rifle to be a disadvantage for "normal" hunting.
I think having those 2 first quick shots to be an advantage. After the first shot[hit or miss] having the instant second shot has proven very handy several times.
Continued next post.

Quite simply, a DG hunting client can recite any number of scenarios (real or imagined) to prove just about any sort of point he'd care to make as to the advantages of one rifle system over the other. The fact is, the double does indeed have advantages, but then so does the scoped bolt action.

It is my personal conviction that, looking at the Big Picture, a properly-built scoped bolt action rifle offers a far greater number of advantages over a far great range of DG hunting conditions for the HUNTING CLIENT than does the double. I'll stick with bolt guns for my own use.

AD

If an animal has been hit and runs out of sight, when spotted on the follow up, again the 2 quick shots of the double offer a definate advantage.

I know I feel a lot better in Grizzly Bear country with my double, even twice when faced with 2 Grizzly Bears at the same time I was glad I had my double. The first time the Bears were @ 30 yards away the second time both were closer than 20 yards.
I stalk wild pigs by myself and feel safer with the double.

Another area where a double is the best rifle is when hunting any animal over bait. Lion, Leopard, Bear, even wild pigs and deer at a feeder. It gives you 2 instant shots
So, if the double is no disadvantage for "normal" hunting,when animals usually run away and is a big advantage
when animals tun toward you, is it not the best all round hunting rifle? After all isn't most game shot at under 200 yards? I talked to several Brown Bear and Dall Sheep guides at the FNAWS Show in Reno NV this weekend, most all stated that the majority of their shots were not over 100 yards. The Sheep guys said you should be prepared to make a 300 yard shot, but it is seldom necessary.

I have come to the conclusion that the Double rifle is the best all round hunting rifle, with the bolt rifle having only one advantage and that is in long range shooting.
Maybe if I was to get a double in 7x65R, 30-06, 300 Win Mag, 30 Blaser or 8x75R [all offered by Chapuis] and do some long range testing, I might declarethe bolt rifle obsolete.
Before you heat up the tar, and start plucking the chickens , remember I started shooting doubles just to use them for African Big Game, in their traditional role. I began using them on "normal" hunting trips to be able to shoot and handle them as well as I did a bolt action, when I took them to Africa. In doing so I have learned of their superiority for most all hunting.

Allen
Good to hear from you, how are you doing. You posted before I had time to finish.
Remember my views are based not on "theory" but from actual use in the field for the past 5 to 6 years. I did not set out with the intention of reaching these conclusion.
Also when comparing Doubles and Bolt rifles, be sure to comsider the fact that I am comparing scoped rifles to scoped rifles, and irons to irons.
Many people with a lot of double rifle experience only have experience with the iron sighted big bore doubles, and only in their "traditionsl" role. The use of the 9,3x74R with a scope is what has really opened my eyes to the true capabilities and advantages of a double.
With the scoped 9,3 double, shooting from a steady rest it seems like I can hit the animal with the second shot before he even knows he was hit with the first.

I am just reporting on what I have "discovered".

NE 450, like you, my preference for the bolt gun is also based on experience. But then preference-shaping experiences do tend to vary!

AD

Allen
I know you have a LOT of hunting experience, and you are an honest fellow. Let me ask you this, in your past hunting, for all the animals you have killed at a distance of 200 yards or less [ I limit this question to 200 yards as that is the longest distance I have fired a double rifle on paper, I have yet to explore the "regulation" factor at long range] why would a bolt rifle been better than a double. You should assume the double would be of proper caliber with the proper scope when necessary.

OH, and for those of you observing this thread let me say that I have talked to Allen a couple of times on the phone, and I do know he has a LOT of hunting experience and is a very nice fellow.

N E 450 No2

I like bolt action... Doubles are fine, but a bolt would still be my first choice. A protruding fireingpin on a double will put it out of business for a long time, unless you have some sort of back up muzzleloading system in it. A bolt action will be easy to repair and keep running

Not meaning to be rude and take a leak in your campfire, but have you read the blaser R-93 accident, scary

Cheers
/ JOHAN

N E 450 No2

One obvious plus with the bolt action is variety of loads that can be used.

I feel that using the double rifle for all your shooting (which several people in Australia do) is akin to using a 375 H&H for shooting kangaroos, pigs and goats. By that I mean the 375 is not the ideal but one might choose to use it simply because that is their preference as it has been mine for countless years. Now there are some advantages to using a 375 as compared to the 270 but overall the 270 is the better choice for most people. In other words if someone is keen to use a 375 for such animals then it will deliver and be fully functional as I am sure the double is for your general shooting.

However the 270 for the roos and pigs is a natural outcome just as the bolt action is natural outcome for general shooting. On the hand, the double for general shooting or the 375 for roos and pigs is a case of making our choice of gun or calibre fit the shooting scenatios.

It is also my belief that shooters who are real keen gun people and who choose rifle types or calibres that are not generally used tend to hunt or shoot under scenarios that most suit their chosen rifle type or calibre and as such get better results that what most would expect.

Mike

Johan
A broken firing pin on a bolt rifle would put you out of service. A broken firing pin on a double, you still have a single shot rifle.
I would like to hear the true facts on the Blaser R-93 blow up.

Mike375
Since you brought up the 270, what can a 270 bolt rifle do that say a 7x65R double rifle could not?
And I have not taylored my hunting to suit the double rifle, rather I used the double rifle for my hunting instead of the bolt rifle just to gain experience handling and shooting the double. I am reporting only what I have discovered.
Some people choose to hunt with the Bow and Arrow accepting the limitations as compaired to a rifle. What I am saying is that I have found when hunting with the double rifle there are not only no limitations, but very real advantages.
As I think back over all the pre-double hunting I have done [with the exception of long range shots, I have not explored that yet] I can see where a double rifle would have had several advantages and NO disadvantages.

Like my good friend and hunting partner Allen has already said, I'll take the bolt rifle for all of my hunting.

To get it in a smaller format, I've just edited down to this:

Two hunts this past fall, both with unfavorable conditions. Near the end of each hunt one shot is offered, range on the deer was 305yds, range on the elk was 310yds, both by lazer after the shot. Both animals down with one shot apiece, the deer was mine and the elk my son's.

Can your doubles allow you to make shots of this length, and with the needed precision to place the bullets for one shot kills like these?

N E 450 No2



Increased range and much wider choice of loads with only one barrel to worry about etc.



No doubt you can do your shooting with the double in 7X65R but a well set up bolt action in 270 simply puts more good things in your court.



Lets us assume for a moment that we have a shooter who has no preference one way or the other between a good 270 bolt action and double in 7X65R. Which rifle would you recommend that he buys.



Mike

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JohnS
I know my 9,3 double shoots good enough with the left and right bbl to be effective at 200 yards. Even if your "long" range double did not regulate well enough to have both bbls be effective at 300+ yards the following technique will work. Just know the zero of which ever one of your bbls shoots the best group at 300+ yards. Then at long range use the double as a single shot. I did not "think" this idea up. On my 450/400 3 1/4", made in the 1920's, it is marked in the following way, on the left bbl, "This barrel is accurate with the sights to 400 yards". The right bbl is marked "This barrel is accurate with the left to 50 yards".
So I would simply aim at the proper place on the animal and shoot, just as you did with your bolt rifle, with the same results, one shot one dead animal.
The right bbl of my 9,3 double shoots 5 shots at about an inch at 100 yards. At 200 yards shooting off of the roof of a car my 9,3 shoots both bbls into a group that can be covered by the palm of my hand.

Okay. The three rifles I use for the majority of my hunting all print groups that well or better. And if need to make a hurried second shot I don't have to remove the rifle from my shoulder or lose sight of my quarry in the scope. If you are to use just one of your two barrels then you'll have to break the gun down, reload it, etc. I think Alf is right.

Mike375
While it is fun to play with different bullets and loads [I do it even with my doubles] in the 270/7x65R class of rifles one load with a good bullet would serve for all these rifles are expected to do. And I must report that the finikyness of double rifles is greatly exaggerated. If this was to be his general purpose light rifle, knowing what I know now I might have to recommend the double. In my prep for my Africa trip I am going to shoot my 9,3 out to 300 yards, I will have a better answer then.
Remember I am not trying to prove a personal THEORY, just reporting RESULTS.

I have hunted with N E 450 #2. He is a hunter of the old school! A hunter/stalker, a person who learns from his experiences in the woods. He has hunted and taken a variety of animals with his doubles. I have great respect for his ability with and knowledge of double rifles.



As MIke375, and other above have stated the bolt action rifle does provide you with a wider range of bullets that can be driven faster and more accurate at a greater distant than double rifles.



In my limited hunting experience I prefer the double for the second quick shot. Nothing to work, no hand has to move. All that is required is to return the rifle from recoil, acquire the target again, move your finger to the second trigger, fire the left barrel.



I try to hunt with my double as often as I can. There are times when I choose not to hunt with my double, when I know I will be hunting at ranges beyonds it's and my ability to be on target. I wish I could hunt with a double all the time, I am knowledgeable enough to know my limits.



From beauty of craftsmanship, balance, graceful lines that can be brought to bear on the target with ease, and a quick second shot when needed, a double is a thing of beauty and a joy to behold and shoot! Just my opine!

ALF
There are several reasons the double is not in wide spread use today. Price is no doubt the biggest cause.
Also the decline of the British Empire.
Also the fact that very few doubles were scoped, even in their heyday. [Our European Brothers are way ahead of us in this area].
Thus very few people have much experience using a scoped double for "normal" hunting.

My challange to you all is to get a double rifle in say 9,3x74R or 7x65R depending on which is most appro for the game you hunt, scope it and hunt with it for 5 years or so.
You might be suprised. I know I have been.

Oh, and in regards to the price of a double, many of us have several rifles that cost $1000.00 dollars apiece. [Even by the time you scope a Remington 700 and sight it in you have near if not more than a $1000.00 invested].
Why not get a good double or two instead. It just might prove better in the long run.

N E 450 No2

Those moves you do with one barrel for a long range shot is great IF you want to use the double rifle.

For many years I have used about 40 grains of the 4227 burn rate with 220 Hornady flat noses in the 375 H&H. Does around 2100 in most rifles. It is the perfect load in a 375 for very high volume shooting and especially spotlight shooting. HOWEVER, a 223 or 22/250 is a better spotlighting calibre but I choose to have a load a 375 that lets me use it where a 223 or 22/250 would be the normally chosen and SUPERIOR calibre.

Now I could report on 3 nights of spotlight shooting with a 375 and such a load. It has worked, it does work and will continue to work. But for someone who does not have a particular liking to using 375 bore rifles, then the 223 or 22/250 is their best calibre.

I see using the double in exactly the same light. What you are doing is by using various techniques, practice or whatever is making for a situation where you can use your double for all shooting and the result combination of success and your desire to use the double results in great happiness

But a bolt action 270 will simply be better for the job in exactly the same manner that a 223 or 22/250 is better for spotlighting than the reduced load in the 375.

Mike

Mike 375

It would depend on what game you are shooting under the spotlight. If coyote sized game Iwould agree. If wild pigs I would much rather have the 375 load.... but once again the double rifle in the proper caliber is much better "under the lights" than a bolt rifle.

A bolt rifle might well be the best rifle for long range hunting. But after my experiments I will report the results. If the double is as good or even close to as good for long range then its superior performance at under 200 yards will surely put it as the top choice for allround use.

Another thing I will add, and it is just my opinion. I had for lunch some deer heart and deer liver, the deer being shot with my 450 No2, that game shot with a double rifle just taste better than game shot with Bolt Rifle Trash.


Sorry could not resist, but the deer liver/heart was very good.

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ALF
If you read all my posts very carefully you will see I have covered all or your statements.
Remember just because the Mauser was Cheaper, does not mean it was better. No doubt the bolt rifle is the most popular rifle in the world today. That does not mean it is the best for the job.
I have used bolt rifles for many years longer than double rifles. But in the last few years I have got to know the double rifle very well. As a hunting rifle it is without peer in most situations.
I realize now MOST people do not have the experience with the scoped double that I do.
Just like back in the day when MOST people believed the Universe revolved around the Earth, and MOST people believed the Earth was flat, MOST people do not understand the advantages of the Double Rifle.
All I can say is get one and give it a go. You will not be dissapointed.

And you my friend may or may not have as much experience hunting on a worldwide basis as many others have. The bolt actioned rifle is superior for any type hunting save close in dangerous game shooting. And even for that I can list a number of well known and admired PHs who preferred the bolt rifle, ie Harry Selby, Tony Sanchez Arino, Harry Manners, Wally Johnson,and the list goes on. I can think of any number of instances in my own hunting where a scoped double would not be the best tool for the job. A 300+yd shot at a Thompson's gazelle on the Serengeti, or a similar shot at springbok in the Kalahari. Or at an antelope on the western prairies. The calibers they are chambered to and the velocity levels they have to operate at are not the equal of a modern bolt rifle chambered in a flat shooting number like a 7mm or 300mag. that is truly capable of sub MOA groups.

You have chosen to try the scoped double and found you like it, that's great. Maybe you have tailored your hunting or your approach to hunting to your weapon's capabilities? In either case it doesn't make the double a better choice than a bolt action.

Alas, as Columbus, I must endeavor to prove that the World is not flat. Board my ship and set sail.
If you are afraid of sailing off the end of the Earth [ie buying a scoped double and giving it a try] analyze your prior and the future shots you make and ask yourself if a double would not have done just as good, or better job.

Gotta agree with John S and other sane persons above. The double is very cool for dangerous game up close and fast, but even there, 99% of the time a bolt action will serve just as well. It is that 1% of the time that has kept the double alive.

Outside of that special purpose for the double rifle, the bolt action is 1000% superior 100% of the time.

Concerning nondangerous game or meat hunting, old American Indian saying: "One shot, MEAT! ... Two shot, MAYBE! ... Three shot, HEAP BIG SHI#!" (The need for a quick followup is a bad sign 99.99% of the time.)

Concerning double rifle ownership, old American Redneck saying: "One in gun safe, NICE! Two in gun safe, SILLY! Three or more in gunsafe, CRAZY!" (Crosses that fine line between hobby and insanity.)

Drawing from my past hunting experiences and looking towards the future I have assembled what I consider to be the best battery of rifles I could own for my uses, all bolt action rifles. I just can't afford to limit my opp's by using something that limits my chances in any way, which is all I see a double rifle as doing.

Ship of Fools? Beyond this line, there monsters be!

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