Anybody knows what the latest rules are regarding non-US passengers in (pure airport...) transit (like when travelling from Mexico City to Johannesburg via Atlanta...) with hunting firearms?

It used to be that after 9/11 a special permit from the State Department was needed.

Thanks for any update on this,

Hello,
Still is required and believe you will find it more difficult now than in the past. By all means check w/ Consulate, State Dep't officials, Customs, etc. prior to attempting any such activity. Results can be severe without proper arrangements. Sure you can understand, we are at WAR.

.

For your info and entertainment, when I looked last time into this matter I sent a letter in April 2002 to the ATF and got a corresponding beautiful "Catch 22" response back in July 2002:

************************************************

Dear Sir or Madam:

I am a bit confused by your new regulations, so please be so kind to answer the following question:

I am a Mexican hunter resident in Mexico City. I booked a hunt in September
2002 to Tanzania, Africa with an American hunting agent and outfitter. I intend to take a hunting rifle of my property to Tanzania for my hunt. This rifle is registered in the Mexican Army Registry (which gives me title to the rifle) and I will have to get a temporary import/export permit from the Mexican Army, which they issue not earlier than 20 days before the start of the hunt, i.e. in August 2002. My flight to Africa departs from Atlanta, Ga., USA and I may have to overnight in a local hotel in Atlanta after flying in with my rifle from Mexico City. I will also return from Tanzania via Atlanta on my way back to Mexico City.

I have done similar trips previously with no problems whatsoever with US Customs as no import/export permits were required up to now.

Now a US temporary import/export permit is required and the issue of the permit seems to be conditional on obtaining a hunting license from any American state.

1) Since it is not my primary intention to hunt in the USA, would the evidence by the American agent and outfitter of the Tanzania hunt plus the return airline tickets to Mexico be sufficient for the waiving of the American hunting license requirement?

2) If the response to 1) is negative, would the submission of a Form 6 to BATF plus an American hunting license (for any animal from any state?) be sufficient to get a temporary import/export permit for my rifle from BATF, even if it is a rifle for African hunting and I am not hunting in the USA?

3) If the response to 2) is also negative, what should I do? Is there a possibility to leave the rifle in custody of Police or Security or in bond at the airport?

Thanking you very much for a response to the above,

Your´s truly, Antonio Estandia

**********************************************

Antonio Estandia,

Thank you for your email to ATF.

You do not need to obtain a Form 6 import permit from ATF because you are not entering the United States for legitimate hunting or lawful sporting purposes. However, you do need to obtain a temporary import license (DSP
61) from the U.S. State Department, Office of Defense Trade Controls (202) 663-2714. Because only U.S. citizens can apply for a DSP 61, we suggest you contact the airline you will be flying to file the application for you. We suggest you apply for 2 DSP 61s, both for your trip to Africa and your trip home, as you again pass through the United States. Please note it takes 8 to 25 days for an application to be approved. Although you do not need to show the State Department proof that you fall within an exception to the nonimmigrant alien prohibition to obtain a DSP 61, you should obtain a hunting license (as it appears that you do not fall within any other exception), if you will be taking possession of the firearm in the United States (for example, taking it with you overnight in Atlanta). Otherwise your possession will be illegal.

We trust the above information will be of assistance to you. If you should have further questions, please do not hesistate to contact the Imports Branch at (202) 927-8320

Regards,

FEAS Division

*******************************

The ATF is telling me that I need to get a permit from State as if I was exporting firearms to a belligerent country, and then import them back into the USA on the way back. Trouble is I can´t apply for one because I am not an American (If I was one I wouldn´t have the problem in the first place...). So the magical way out is to let the airline do it for me. (ha, ha, ha...). Additionally, I should cheat and get a US hunting license.

I had hoped that somebody in the US Government would have noticed the irrationality of it all and the process had been corrected.

It just means for me that I will have to travel to Africa without my rifle if I go via the US or fly over Europe, where things are not better either...


Thanks for your comments, Antonio

This is a mess.

I know that the NRA/ILA staff is working hard to try to fix this. It is a very difficult issue because of knee jerk reaction of "foreigners with guns".

We should be setting a better example for the rest of the world though, that is why as Chair of NRA's Hunting and Wildlife Conservation Committee I have been pushing hard to try to get this changed.

The guys at NRA/ILA are working on it and say it will be a challenge to get it changed.

In my opinion we are setting a terrible example.

And yes, it does mean that you cannot bring a rifle through the US if you are not a US citizen.

Todd

Antonio,
Here is an alternate way to avoid this. Fly from Mexico City to Vancouver, BC ( direct flights every day by several airlines @ 5hr flight) You can get a temporary permit at airport from Canada customs for Canada, but probably won't need it since you are not importing it to Canada), then Vancouver to Amsterdam ( need amsterdam in transit form faxed and returned before trip), and finaly Amsterdam to Tanzania. Unfortunalty the US Homeland Security seems to think that 9/11 happened with guns and not box cutters.
Us Gov't now does not allow any in transit guns whatsoever.

It never occurred to me this ouwld also affect a Mexican hunter. It makes travel to Africa form Canada much more complicated.

No problemo ... I fly from Calgary to Frankfurt to usually Joeys (this year, Cape Town) to Windhoek ... The first couple of flights are overnight at about 10 or 11 hours .. Except for the long day hanging around the airport in Frankfurt checking out the prices of caviar and Rolex watches ..it is not half bad .. And you are going to our Beloved Africa ..

Hello TJR,
As for our example to the rest of the world, well, guess what, believe it or not, the rest of the world would be one hell of a lot better off and safer if they used us as an example!!
Foreigners with guns in the U.S is not a knee jerk response, but only a sound and sane one given the war we happen to be engaged in these days and will be for sometime to come. If our Canadian or Mexican neighbors do not like the situation, that is unfortunate, but I for one take no shame in restrictions during these very troubled times and quite the contrary, support them in every way possible. Trust me, someone unable to pass through with firearms on a hunting trip is not going to be on top of the list for The State Department to investigate and alter in the forseeable future. Your position with the NRA and your stating that we as a nation are taking a knee jerk reaction is not one I would openly profess very often.
Of course I am forgetting the tremendous aid and assistance that both Canada and Mexico provides America in our war on terror no matter where on the globe. We should alter our security programs for these two helpfull and always friendly neighbors??? I am sure that one can freely travel wherever and whenever they wish in Mexico and Canada with their firearms. Yeah, right!!!

I should have figured somebody would blow gasket about this. Every time I post here somebody finds a reason to argue. I'm gonna quit this forum pretty soon. It's usually somebody who doesn't even have a clue.

Banning people from transiting the US (without even having access to their firearms during the trip)is absurd. These are people that check their rifle in Mexico City (or wherever) and don't see it until they get to Africa!

They are not traipsing around the US with their bolt action, double rifle , or single shot. You know that those double rifles are really the first choice of the terrorist that has everything.

There is nothing sound or sane about banning legitimate folks from transiting the US with sporting arms. It is just plain bureaucratic stupidity, period.

In the interest of security, I suppose you would support indefinitely detaining anybody with an Arabic surname.

Think about it this way, it gives countries like South Africa fodder to ban you from transitting their country to reach all those southern African countries we all love to hunt in. Next thing is they will force those of us that want to fly to Windhoek, Arusha, Dar es Salaam, or wherever to declare our guns and get RSA permits just to change planes in RSA.

The UN Convention on Small Arms is attempting to get a treaty that would essentially ban all small (read sporting) arms from transit by anyone other than governments. All in the name of anti terrorism. Should the NRA support that brilliant idea?

It makes no sense, it makes no one safer, and it just screws with law abiding people.

The US should set an example that foreigners can transit our country without getting a royal screwing.

They highjack planes with boxcutters, you think firearms restrictions mean a thing to these people? I am just so sure that the next band of psychos to attack the US are going to pose as hunters on their way to Jo'berg. Smuggling in 1 bolt action 7x57 each, or an English double.

Give me a break.

TJR

TJR

Well said.

.

A hearty second from me as well. I can only say this type of restriction is ludicrous. It certainly serves no functional purpose.
Life Member NRA

TJR, thanks a ton for your posts regarding the issue of US transit rules for foreign travellers with firearms. You are spot on, and it is refreshing to see that the plight of international firearms owners are not totally forgotten in the States (as posts by other members would lead you to believe).

The US firearms transit regulations are a catch 22, and impossible to deal with. Yet they offer absolutely nothing to enhance or ensure the safety of anybody. It simply a bunch of totally entangled redtape.

Thanks to good people like yourself and organizations like the NRA, the US is still a shining example to the rest of the world, of what freedom truely means. We need you to stand up to the antis of the world, and their proxys in the UN!

It is sad day when firearms owners don't realize they are part of a brotherhood which spans nations. But I guess there are narrow minded people in all walks of life.

- mike

The world is a small place if you never leave your backyard. All countries could have the same great policies as the US in this instance. Hang in there TJR and I hope you get on your trip -- like said, I would also think you could get to SA w/o going thru US, just a bit of aggravation.

By the way, nowadays, who even knows what a 'furriner' is? Waidmannsheil, Dom.

Hello TJR,
Well, sorry but will not give you and your ilk (ilk is not a big deer) a break as you request. Talk about a broken record and spouting nonsense about terrorists not using double rifles, sporting rifles, etc. is a typical talking point argument. You have missed the entire point and that being that like it or not, the United States is at war around the globe and it is not business as usual. Quite the contrary.
Hunting trips to Africa, Canadians or Mexicans or any other foreign travellers able to transport firearms of any description throughout the country, and other inconveniences of the travelling hunter, sportsman, is not considered a high priority for those engaged in the war on terrorism. To respond that efforts, policies, regulations, laws, designed to strengthen our security should not apply to those only wishing to go hunting is elitist and ridiculous. You mention that hijackers only used box cutters. Well, duh, they could not use firearms for they are forbidden in the cabin of airlines. Can't carry boxcutters now can we??

The UN has nothing to do with the regulations, far from it.
If it were up to the UN, they would have Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Somalia, and other Islamic idiots determining policies for human rights!! No, it is purely an American program, thank goodness, and I fear that the safari business will just have to suffer a little inconvenience as the rest of us mortals do during the times of conflict we are facing.
Rest assured that in order for we as a nation to win this war on terrorism and despots around the world will require a lot more of these regulations you view as "hassles." It is a shame some of us have to endure these issues, but in time of war, one must have the proverbial stiff upper lip and carry on as best we can. Sir, your "pool is quite shallow..."

Hmmm, I generally stay out of stuff like this because of what TJR said above (somebody always has to start Fing with you), but damn, this dude just doesn't get it...

Thanks to those that actually understand this issue. Maybe I'll stick around.

Alf, I am pretty certain that the resistance NRA is facing is from folks who are waving the flag of security. The original reason behind the rule MAY be commercial, I will double check. I know there is extreme resistance to it at this time and it is from bureaucrats who think that they will be accused of being soft on terror.

Which is truly absurd in my view. Terrorists can get guns through various means without having to pose as hunters from Mexico or other places.

The big picture here is that there is a real concern that other countries will use it as an example of what they ought to do.

Anybody that thinks this is going to stop terrorists is naively mistaken.

Todd

quote:

Originally posted by driver:
Hello TJR,
Well, sorry but will not give you and your ilk (ilk is not a big deer) a break as you request. Talk about a broken record and spouting nonsense about terrorists not using double rifles, sporting rifles, etc. is a typical talking point argument. You have missed the entire point and that being that like it or not, the United States is at war around the globe and it is not business as usual. Quite the contrary.
Hunting trips to Africa, Canadians or Mexicans or any other foreign travellers able to transport firearms of any description throughout the country, and other inconveniences of the travelling hunter, sportsman, is not considered a high priority for those engaged in the war on terrorism. To respond that efforts, policies, regulations, laws, designed to strengthen our security should not apply to those only wishing to go hunting is elitist and ridiculous. You mention that hijackers only used box cutters. Well, duh, they could not use firearms for they are forbidden in the cabin of airlines. Can't carry boxcutters now can we??

The UN has nothing to do with the regulations, far from it.
If it were up to the UN, they would have Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Somalia, and other Islamic idiots determining policies for human rights!! No, it is purely an American program, thank goodness, and I fear that the safari business will just have to suffer a little inconvenience as the rest of us mortals do during the times of conflict we are facing.
Rest assured that in order for we as a nation to win this war on terrorism and despots around the world will require a lot more of these regulations you view as "hassles." It is a shame some of us have to endure these issues, but in time of war, one must have the proverbial stiff upper lip and carry on as best we can. Sir, your "pool is quite shallow..."

Sport hunters from other nations traveling with declared firearms present absolutely no threat to the national security of the United States of America. The policies in place at this time, regarding foreign nationals transiting with firearms, are ridiculous rules put in place by our incompetent bureaucrats and politicians.

My two cents....
-Bob F.


"In popular government results worth having can be achieved only by men who combine worthy ideals with practical good sense."
--Theodore Roosevelt, address at Harvard Union, Feb. 23, 1907
http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/modern/trisland.htm

BobF would those boobs be the same group so many illegals from Mexico so dislike they sneak across our borders every night to get into the USA?
I for one hope the mass of illegals crossing our border from the south never have the right to bring weapons along! Of course little would it deter them, surely no more than they feel detered by the border laws anyway.
Some of you seem to have forgotten we are in a WAR. While you continue to go about your lives in search of "more for me" whom cares about a war attitude.

Saeed move this to the political forum and I'll really cut loose

Yes, we are at war but not with in-transit hunters. Firearms in transit pose no threat to anyone. No one but the baggage handlers have access to them and the gun cases are locked. This shows what happens when bureaucrats (of any nationality) run the show. Reminds me again of the American's prayer "Oh Lord, protect me from those who are trying to protect me!" .
Rich Elliott

Driver,
I have read your postings and you are one of the first that has ever been able to raise my blood pressure.
There was nothing wrong with our laws before this nonsense going on now. Any sportsman should be allowed to pass in, thru or out of this country with sporting firearms.
I have friends coming in from foreign countries to hunt deer at my ranches as my guest. It is stupid that they have to jump thru the current hoops they are required to now.
I carry a gun every waking hour and I would feel a damn site safer if I had it on me on any flight I ever made. I could care less if everyone else had one on them on the same flight.
Your sense of security is way off base and this law makes you or your family no more safe today than it was 10 years ago.
I view your attitude like one my 6th grade teacher had. She required all papers be written in black only ink. Blue ink was not allowed. The fact that you knew or did not know the subject you were being tested on had no bearing on anything...just the color of the ink. How stupid!
Remember...only walk the crosswalk if you have the light in your favor. Wear your mittens if it is cold out.
Jeeze Louise!

Rich that's like saying an airplane doesn't hurt anyone till it gets flown into a building or two.
Harry is anyone telling them they can't come with their weapons AFTER doing the permit bus...just like we do in RSA?

Antonio,
The current regulations for in-transit hunters make absolutely no sense. As a hunter and a US Citizen, I apologize. WE ARE NOT A SHINING EXAMPLE TO THE REST OF THE WORLD IN THIS REGARD. I've traveled via third countries to my hunting destinations and have never been forced to endure what we put our visitors through. It is a disgrace and has nothing to do with national security.

My advice is to fly from Mexico City directly to Paris or Madrid and then on to Johannesburg.

It's a crying shame when I have to tell a fellow hunter to avoid the US and travel via FRANCE to get better treatment.

Forrest how often have you flown into that 3rd world country known as England with your firearms?

quote:

Posted 08 March 2006 22:33
Rich that's like saying an airplane doesn't hurt anyone till it gets flown into a building or two.

What's that got to do with firearms in transit?

Rich Elliott

Rich: Case n Point:the defunct practice of letting a piolt sit in the jump seat as a couretsy didn't hurt anything either till a few abused it with box cutters
Hell I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed I'm saying they should only be allowed after jumping thru whatever hoops our Gov't wants them to first...no different than what we jump thru going to Afr.

Cats,

There are no hoops to jump through that allow a foreigner to travel THROUGH the US with a firearm. It is banned.

There is no procedure for a hunter from Mexico, Canada, Pakistan, or ANYWHERE to simply TRANSIT the US with a CHECKED firearm.

This has NOTHING to do with illegal border crossers, which we certainly know about here in Tucson.

Are we clear now on what we are talking about?

Can somebody say it in Swahili? Please.

Todd

Some US hunters who travel through Johannesburg complain to high heaven about the RSA's firearms regulations. Yet those regulations only require firearms permits for those who must clear customs. As a rule, no permits are required for firearms that are in-transit and that are checked through to final destination in another country.

Some US hunters who travel through Amsterdam have complained about the Netherlands in-transit permit. Yet that permit can be obtained by fax in a matter of a few days.

Some US hunters who travel through London or Paris complain about problems encountered there, yet with very little trouble--and no permits or other red tape--an in-transit stopover there with firearms in checked luggage that do not clear customs can be accomplished without the slightest hassle.

Yet here in the US, foreign hunters transiting our airports with their firearms must get an airline to sponsor them, to get MULTIPLE FEDERAL PERMITS--and they themselves must get a hunting license FROM A US STATE that THEY WILL NEVER USE AND MANIFESTLY DO NOT NEED--even when they are merely stopping over in-transit to change airplanes, when their firearms are checked through to final destination in another country and are UNTOUCHABLE and INACCESSIBLE to their owners while in the US.

How irrational and asinine can you get?

The NRA and SCI should work hard to change these regulations. They are an embarrassment to all right-thinking Americans and set a horrendous example for the rest of the world.

AMEN! MR

quote:

How irrational and asinine can you get?

My feelings exactly.

Rich Elliott

Who else but someone from Massachusetts could come up with such frivilous BS. Land of the KKK's. Kennedy, Kerry, and Kooks. If you want to take a look see at just how the rest of America views your thoughts, ideas, statement, attitudes, etc. take a poll as to just how idiotic and anti -American most think of Massachusetts. Trust me, it "aint good."
Suggest you keep a low profile with this war on terrorism!! In short, don't stick your head up for there are seven holes in a human head and by sticking it up, the eighth will appear!! Let's see now, what was the name of that bridge and the girl who drowned??? Mary Jo something?????? I forgot, we are not supposed to bring that up in polite company are we.

Did I say those regulations were irrational and asinine?

Apparently not half as irrational and asinine as some of those who defend them!

Thanks for all your answers guys. I really did not think that I would stir the pot so much with what I thought was just a factual question. I had hoped the contradictions had been solved by now.

Of course the easiest way out for me is to fly directly from Mexico City to one of the European cities and then directly to Harare. No need to fly first to Canada. However, again in the distant past, I used to do a stopover of a couple of days in the USA to buy 416 cartridges, Lariam, and other stuff that we are unable to get over here. The new situation just changes my logistics and forces me to avoid the USA cities and airlines altogether, if I want to travel with my rifle...

In the end I will probably end up hunting in Africa with rented rifles, as doing all the red tape can be excrutiating.

Thanks again, Antonio

quote:

I should have figured somebody would blow gasket about this. Every time I post here somebody finds a reason to argue. ......... It's usually somebody who doesn't even have a clue.

Also well said.

This also affects people flying to Canada via the USA.

Driver
The goofy part of these regulations is if i want to hunt in the US, it's no problem to get a permit to bring my own rifle, but in checked luggage I can't get the permit.
I guess that makes the US a safer place.
Also to address your point about travelling around Canada with sporting arms, you declare them at the border, register them in Canada, pay $50 cdn and you can go where ever you want as long as they are safely stored.

quote:

Originally posted by driver:
Who else but someone from Massachusetts could come up with such frivilous BS. Land of the KKK's. Kennedy, Kerry, and Kooks. If you want to take a look see at just how the rest of America views your thoughts, ideas, statement, attitudes, etc. take a poll as to just how idiotic and anti -American most think of Massachusetts. Trust me, it "aint good."
Suggest you keep a low profile with this war on terrorism!! In short, don't stick your head up for there are seven holes in a human head and by sticking it up, the eighth will appear!! Let's see now, what was the name of that bridge and the girl who drowned??? Mary Jo something?????? I forgot, we are not supposed to bring that up in polite company are we.

driver,

mrlexma is from Massachusetts and I'm from Texas. Now, Texas is not exactly a liberal state. I seem to recall that George W. Bush is from Texas. But, guess what? I agree with mrlexma 100% on this issue.



-Bob F.

I really just don't understand how anyone who is a hunter and/or gun owner can take the position that this policy is a good idea.

It's just plain nutty!

Todd

pretty simple to me as long as we are at war let them fly elsewhere with their guns, no sweat off my ass if they do

Hello Bfaucet,
Well, I think it is grand that you are from Texas and you have every right to disagree w/ me or others for that matter, but as it has been stated, we are at WAR and that greatly overcomes any inconvenience some foreign travellers might have attempting to go on a hunting trip.
It matters not "one whit..." to me if they do not like it. What they like or for that matter what you or I like is not really important. The position you and others have taken on this matter is indicative that our nation at war has not entered your thought processes. Those from the enemy's camp observe this complacent attitude and take every advantage of it whenvever and wherever possible.
TJR would have you believe that his opposition to travel restrictions is purely based on the awful appearance this must make to our foreign travellers. That is utter hogwash and bullshit for it is painfully obvious that the goal is to foster a commercial enterprise, safari hunting/travel, regarless of any ill consequences. Some would say "what possible consequences???" Well, I can not predict the future but will say that whatever it takes to make those wishing to harm the U.S. more difficult for them to do so, I am 100% plus for it. If foreign hunters/travellers find the issue more than they can endure in the U.S. then seek other avenues of travel. We are not going to make it easy for them regardless of the appearnces it may produce with our foreign "friends."