quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:

quote:

I am afraid I do not agree with this at all.

...spending all your money on trophies and keeping nothing in reserve). If that is the case, then you have no shame!

I say this because in many industries, this being one of them, salaries are low because all parties know there will be tips. So if you don't tip, you are taking advantage of the underpaid PH and staff, who expect a tip if they do a decent job. You are in effect, taking the goods and not paying the bill.

This I agree with.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
He said it was up to me and suggested a small amount for the staff that I thought made alot of sense.

I mean no disrespect, but if I understand correctly that you tipped $100 for the entire staff, including the trackers, for a 7 day buffalo hunt -- assuming that the hunt was a good one and the team delivered for you -- I think that amount borders on embarrassing. I would also be shocked if the PH actually suggested anything like that for the staff assuming a well run hunt. If you assume just a tracker, a driver, a cook, a skinner, a camp assistant, a waiter and a game scout, that works out to less than $15.00/person. That is the tip on a $100 meal for good, friendly service. I am all for not going over board, but by the same token, at some point a tip is so small that a handshake and a thank you are actually more meaningful.

I was just kidding about that amount,but respect anyone who decides that it is a fair amount.Also anyone can say here that they tipped all sorts but no one except he and the PH or staff know the truth..

from you successive posts, i don't think you were kidding at all!!! i would leave nothing at all before i left a $10/person tip to the camp staff and less than $8/day to the PH for a DG HUNT.

By Russ:
" think you are saying that tips are optional and thus it's quite OK to go taking no money for tips (or spending all your money on trophies and keeping nothing in reserve). If that is the case, then you have no shame!

I say this because in many industries, this being one of them, salaries are low because all parties know there will be tips. So if you don't tip, you are taking advantage of the underpaid PH and staff, who expect a tip if they do a decent job. You are in effect, taking the goods and not paying the bill."

Then I take it that the Europeans, who don't make a practice of tipping, are stealing?
Tipping is tipping. If I am not satisfied with a service, I don't tip. As has been said a few times here already, the tipping process has gotten out of hand. I do tip, but it is on the level of service received, not because an outfitter is too cheap to pay his people.
No, I will not stop going on guided hunts because of this. That is not appropriate in my way of thinking. Put a price on something and that is what I expect to pay. Hidden costs are a ripoff, or stealing by the outfitter.

Before I dive into this cloudy issue, I would like to assure you that I do tip everywhere I am expected to do so. However, after reading all the posts above, I’d like to share my fillings and concerns about this matter.
We do tip a waiter or a bar-man but we do not tip a flight attendant for doing the same service. We tip a barber for doing his job and we do not tip a doctor or a nurse for doing their (I doubt that we are not interested in the results of the last one’s performance). We tip a taxi driver and don’t tip an airplane pilot regardless that their job requires a little bit more effort. And so on and on and on.
When I come to a restaurant I expect to have somebody to bring me the ordered food and to do it in a professional and friendly manner. If the food/service is not good, I never come again. When I come on a guided safari, I expect to be guided by a professional and friendly PH, to be fed by a professional cook, etc. And if it is not so, I never return and tell all my friends about my bad experience. And the business owner has to figure out why he is loosing his clients.
A daily fee for a safari varies from an outfitter to outfitter and from country to country. There is big difference in daily fees for PG and DG. Why? We don’t eat or drink more than on a DG hunt, the accommodations are about the same as the service is. So, why we are paying more? Because it is a DG SAFARI! Does a DG PH get paid more than a PG PH? Most likely – yes. Is the difference in proportion with the daily fees? Most likely – NO? Who is pocketing the difference? Most likely – the business owner. Why? Because we are expected to TIP! And TIP! And TIP!
In many posts we can read: “we became friends with our PH†Let’s say you’ve got a favor from your friend. Will you give him an envelope with some cash for it? NO! You will try to do something nice to him in return (If you are really friends).
Let’s say, that we are going to visit somebody in a different town or country. Obviously, we will bring some meaningful gifts or souvenirs to give to people we will meet there. Going to a safari it is more than appropriate to bring some valuable and useful gifts with you to show your appreciation of the above expectation service received. On other hand, giving tips (cash) we just encourage a business owner to pay his employee less than he should. More we give – less he pays.
Let’s assume that a client has died due a heart attack on the last day of his safari (God forbid).Will the outfitter take responsibility to distribute the remaining client’s cash to his PHs and camp staff as a tip? I doubt it... It would be a looting . Most likely they will be left underpaid. (BTW, I am a business owner as well and I know that it is smarter to pay my employee enough - than to loose him and waste money teaching a new one).
If a PH or a camp-staff member knows that there is no tips for his job he may not apply for it at all because of the low wages. You may say: in this case a business owner will raise the daily fee rate. Well it is up to the market to decide is it right or wrong. After all going on safaris it is much better to pay for the service in advance, put on a side requested cash for the trophy fees and forget about money for a length of your journey. However, as of today, most of us are struggling with a tipping decision: Is it enough? Isn’t it too much? And so on.
As Saeed has suggested a hold of 10% of the daily fees till the end of a safari to be distributed by the client is a very smart solution and I would like to see this idea come to life.

Saving money for my first safari in August 09…

10 day buff and PG in Zim…

Tips are worked into my budget…

I’m figuring with good service 10% of DR or 100 per day to PH and setting aside 1/3 to 1/5 that for the staff...

A hunt like this is going to go15K +…

Couldn’t fathom not tipping a fair amount if service is well…

If you’re able to set aside 10 – 15K to take a safari then what the hell is an extra $500 or $1,000…

Save a little longer, sell a few guns, and make a few sacrifices…

I don’t work for free and I sure as hell wouldn’t expect someone else…

Just my $.02…

This whole thing has me thinking.
Though I have been fortunate enough to go on a few guided hunts and a chunk of Salmon fishing trips, I have allways wondered WHY do we tip.
Sure there is the obvious tip for extra work and a extra try. But why do we tip when the service has been same old same old?
I can only recall 3 Times that I WANTED to tip.
#1 was the head steward at a Fishing lodge. It was 3 in the AM, and had heard we ran out of spirts and mix.. He hauled himself out of bed to make sure we were taken care of. Well done!! He went on to become Manager of northern resorts for Oak Bay Marine Group
#2 A messed up fishing trip that saw us left at the dock due to a screw up in the boats. One of the guides came back after 10 hours on the water and proceeded to refill his boat so we could get in a few hours that night. FANTASTIC!
#3 My whole Brown Bear experience this past spring in Alaska. I still cant brag enough about the job Baranof expeditions did for me.
#4 A guide on a salmon fishing trip, that guy kept us in stitches for 4 days. I really enjoyed his company.

I am really beginning to think that a tip should be for a outstanding job, going above and beyond what was called for.

But yet I still tip because I think that is what is called for.
SIGHH

Calgary Guy

quote:

Then I take it that the Europeans, who don't make a practice of tipping, are stealing?

You know, tipping practices vary by country but you adopt the practice of the country you are IN, not the country you are FROM!

Maybe that's why some outfitters charge Europeans in Euros, and it works out to be more than they charge Americans.

quote:

A daily fee for a safari varies from an outfitter to outfitter and from country to country. There is big difference in daily fees for PG and DG. Why? We don’t eat or drink more than on a DG hunt, the accommodations are about the same as the service is. So, why we are paying more? Because it is a DG SAFARI! Does a DG PH get paid more than a PG PH? Most likely – yes. Is the difference in proportion with the daily fees? Most likely – NO? Who is pocketing the difference? Most likely – the business owner. Why? Because we are expected to TIP! And TIP! And TIP!

The reason the daily rates are higher in the DG areas is that it costs more money to rent 200,000 plus acres as your personal playground, rather than 5,000 acres on a PG hunt. It also costs more money to stock and run a bush camp than a permanent lodge on the grid.

Yes, you do pay a lower daily rate on a PG hunt in a concession but try getting a booking in prime time. Odds are you are going to get a "low season" week and you may find yourself sharing camp (or the area) with someone who is carrying the freight.

Tips are not a bad thing! If there was no tipping, the incentive to do a good job goes out the window the moment you pay your deposit. Owners care a lot about reputation, but employees often don't give a hoot about their employer's reputation. Tipping keeps everyone aligned to provide the best service.

I wouldn't go on a hunt where there was no tipping permitted.

And I still say, availing yourself of a service in a "Tipping" environment and not tipping is cheap at best, maybe not stealing, but certainly gaming the system in a selfish way.

quote:

If there was no tipping, the incentive to do a good job goes out the window the moment you pay your deposit

WOW!

There is something wrong with this statement.
And this is the sort of thought that I do not like about "tipping".

A "tip" is supposed to be a show of appreciation for a job well done. OVER AND ABOVE THE SERVICE I HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR!

This actually re-enforces the idea that some outfitters use the "tips" to pay the salaries of their staff!

What a bloody shameful practice.

What this is going to lead to is what has happened to other industries.

Where a "tip" has beconme expected, no matter how bad the service provided is.

We are expected to tip in restaurants. I do, as long as the service, and food is good.

Where I am not happy about either, I refuse to tip, and call the manager to tell him why.

We are expected to tip the boys who fill up our cars at the petrol pump.

I do, as long as I see he is doing his job in a efficient and quick manner.

In fact, those guys seem to have developed the same ideas as safari operators.

You drive in, and ask for the car to filled up.

They will put in AED97-98. Expecting you to pay with a AED100 note, and let them keep the change.

I always tip those who I see are doing a good job - AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED.

Those who stick the end of the pipe into my car, and stroll to stand next to their mates to have a chat. And wait for me to hit the horn to tell them that the job is done, get absolutely nothing.

Any time someone opens his palm expecting a handout, just because HE thought he has provided me with a service, he gets NOTHING.

I remain the judge of what constitute a job well done, not the service provider.

The service he is supposed to provide me, has already been paid for IN FULL. And he better provide it as promised, otherwise he gets nothing.

Amen.

+1

+2

+3
In Aus it is not a custom to tip but when you do receve a tip you sure fell good about it, not expecting it.
And We know what we will be paid at the end of the job.
In saying that, I know it is a custom in Africa and respect that and pay the tip as required.

Couldn't agree more. At the moment when tipping becomes expected is the moment when service drops and my interest in tipping leaves. I hate the idea of a tip influencing the quality of the job/service. That's what the wage is for and character and work ethic should dictate a job well done or not.

Here at home, some restaurants have adopted the policy of including a 15% tip added to the bill. I have yet to pay it. I will decide whether or not to tip, and how much as well. Needless to say, I have never returned to a restaurant which attempts to determine my tipping practices for me.

I've witnessed people complain about their meal, whether it was the service or the food itself, then tip the expected 15%. How does this make sense?

When tipping becomes an obligatory percentage of the bill, why call it tipping? Tipping is the monetary expression of gratitude for a superior performance.

Bobby B.

I think Atkinson has it right. On all of his costs listed in his hunt offers he includes the line "tips that are optional".

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

If there was no tipping, the incentive to do a good job goes out the window the moment you pay your deposit

WOW!

There is something wrong with this statement.
And this is the sort of thought that I do not like about "tipping".

A "tip" is supposed to be a show of appreciation for a job well done. OVER AND ABOVE THE SERVICE I HAVE ALREADY PAID FOR!

This actually re-enforces the idea that some outfitters use the "tips" to pay the salaries of their staff!

What a bloody shameful practice.

What this is going to lead to is what has happened to other industries.

Where a "tip" has beconme expected, no matter how bad the service provided is.

We are expected to tip in restaurants. I do, as long as the service, and food is good.

Where I am not happy about either, I refuse to tip, and call the manager to tell him why.

We are expected to tip the boys who fill up our cars at the petrol pump.

I do, as long as I see he is doing his job in a efficient and quick manner.

In fact, those guys seem to have developed the same ideas as safari operators.

You drive in, and ask for the car to filled up.

They will put in AED97-98. Expecting you to pay with a AED100 note, and let them keep the change.

I always tip those who I see are doing a good job - AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED.

Those who stick the end of the pipe into my car, and stroll to stand next to their mates to have a chat. And wait for me to hit the horn to tell them that the job is done, get absolutely nothing.

Any time someone opens his palm expecting a handout, just because HE thought he has provided me with a service, he gets NOTHING.

I remain the judge of what constitute a job well done, not the service provider.

The service he is supposed to provide me, has already been paid for IN FULL. And he better provide it as promised, otherwise he gets nothing.

I agree 100%.

The range for a proper tip should begin at the bottom: for poor service, giving no tip at all is perfectly appropriate.

For exceptional service, on the other hand, it is likewise appropriate to give more than what may be normal or customary.

I budget and take the maximum amount that I would tip if the hunt went perfect, and the PH looked out for me as he should, however, it is up to him to earn it.

My first hunt was in 1992 with Rosslyn Safaris in Zimbabwe. Their recommendation was $200 for the staff divided as they felt appropriate. The PH told me they did it this way with the allocation being done by the outfitter. All too often the clients don't realize the proper structure in a camp. The skinners are perceived nearly equal to the trackers yet are seldom seen by the client. The staff would assemble and were told the tip had been made and were shown a tally book that had the amount for each entered. A portion would be given to the staff after each hunt with the balance given at the seasons end. If you go to town and go on a binge, you get fired and forfeit your balance on the books. Their camps were the best I've ever been in for service and food quality.
The suggestion for the PH was from nothing to 10% of the daily rate depending on your level of satisfaction.
Cigarettes and small cash tips for major animals taken were fun and really boosted morale.

Again, there is nothing wrong, and everything right, with the custom of tipping. In providing a service, we all know that there is a detectable difference between someone who does the job adequately and someone who goes out of his/her way to do a super job. Tipping provides the incentive to ensure that most employees do the latter. It's just another form of variable compensation guys, like commission, bonus, stock options etc etc. Humans are no different than dogs in this regard...give them a treat and they will sit up and pay attention.

If there were no tipping, employees (not owners, that's a different breed of dog right there) tend to let their belts out a notch or two, except perhaps when the boss is watching. However, the boss can't supervise a PH who is off in the bush with a client.

And yes, if tipping is customary in an industry, then tips are part (the variable part) of compensation. Employers are not taking advantage of customers in this case, they are taking care of the customers by giving customers some say in a particular employee's compensation.

If tips were not permitted, then yes they would likely have to pay their employees more money, and thus the daily rates would be higher.

So Saeed and company, I am puzzled by your failure to get this point. Anyone who has eaten in a restaurant in a country where there is no tippping knows what I am talking about. The service is lackadaisical compared to one in a country where tipping is practiced.

Here we have restaurants that add 15% "service" charge to the bill, just for the pleasure of serving you.

I do eat in many restaurants, and always leave an additional tip to the service charge if I get exception service.

When the service is mediocre, I refuse to pay even their "service" charge, and tell them so.

I am all for rewarding very good service.

But, to expect me to pay, whatever service I get, ain't going to happen.

It is up to the service provider to make sure the service he offfers is what has already been paid for by the client.

If the client feels he has gotten good value for his money, and wishes to reward them, that his free wish.

Tip is NOT obligatory.

Well, I am still with Saeed on this matter. Here is another question: 2x1 hunt. How you would tip a PH and tracker in that case? It is clear with the camp staff: two clients - double work.
But regarding the hunt 2x1 - it is not double work for PH. Should it be double tip?

In all the hunting camps that I have in, the service, food and accomodation has been nothing short of fantastic.

Because of this one would feel rather mean not to leave a generous tip.

But, if I was unlucky and get a service that is not what I expect for the money I pay, I can assure you, there will not be a tip, and the people running the camp would know why.

RUSS
i find tipping offensive and your comment bizzare,however as oz hunter stated when in Rome do as the Romans do...if the staff dont like there jobs let them get another job, easy as that.
camp staff should do there job to there best of there ability, regardless
of tips....i go to work... and who the hell pays me tips, Russ if i took your advice and looked after you real well only if you were willing to pay me a tip on the end of your stay in intensive care after a BUFFULO stuck its horns up your arse or what ever else they do , you would not onley curse the day you were concived, but also the day you were born...i promise you that.Why should a hunting camp be any diffrent!
Daniel

Tipping! The never ending discussion. I think tipping is a great idea on safari. When people get it that a significant amount of cash is directly tied to how hard they work they try harder. I do agree that a client should feel no obligation to tip well or at all if he thinks the service has been anything other than good to excellent.

I do not agree that the PH on a 2x1 does not work harder than a PH on a 1x1 so he should only be tipped as a 1x1. He has to try to deliver the trophies for each client in half the time. This can be a high pressure situation and I never recommend it.

Mark

A couple more thoughts on tipping. I've been more put off by the way the safari company handled the tipping than anything else and it has caused me to tip less. One company came at me with a printed list on company letterhead of 23 camp employees with blanks after their names so I could fill in the amount of tip. I'd been in the camp 3 days and was not impressed. They got a very minimal tip. Another outfit strongly recommended that I leave all my cash at the office including tip money. About 3 days into the safari the PH started talking about camp tips and revolts etc. Upon leaving camp it was grossly apparent that an extra tip was expected. None was given and the PH got $1000 less tip than I intended to give for various reasons.

I believe it is poor form for a PH to bring up tips at all until the client does and then he can give a recommendation etc.

Mark

quote:

What Have You Been Tipping This Year?

10% of the daily fee times the number of days and I leave it with the outfitter to divvy up as he sees fit.

And of course this is assuming I've been treated with courtesy.....and is not at all related to success of the hunt....

I requested tipping information from the outfitter my friend and I have booked with next June. The outfitter's recommendations (note: recommendations) seemed entirely fair.
On the idea of people hunting 2x1, Brett and I do this all the time. However, we still tip individually so there is no problem. Yes, we have sometimes disagreed on how much of a tip to leave, but since we do it individually, each of us feels we've done right.

Here is what I did last week.

PH $1,000 for hunting seven days of a twelve day hunt, going fishing and otherwise taking me around. He worked especially hard getting me a sable. I was using 10% of the hunt daily rate as my guide.

Cook $100
Waiter (laundry/beds/etc.) $60
Skinner $40 ($20 per animal)
Gardners (2) $20 each
Asst. Skinners $10 each
Game Scout $20
Head Traker $200
Asst. Tracker $150
Fishing Guide $20

For better or worse, these are factual numbers.

I booked through Atcheson's.

They recommend a tip range which tops out at $600 per week for the PH and $300 peer week for teh staff in total (about 10 people). So that's what I did. The PH then suggested an additional $1000 (for two weeks) s;lit amont the five trackers. That seemed like a good idea so I did that. $3,000 total for bull ele, buff, hippo, and 13.5' croc. To avoid taking a lot of csh, I put cash "in excrow" at Atchjeson's in Montana and directed them to pay through the safari company.

Kensco;

Help!

You start a dreaded tip thread that lasts through your hunt and return,and;

No report!

Photos man!



Hope you did well;

Dan

It's coming. I did put comments on a thread titled Just Back From Zimbabwe so I did get started ........ kinda.