Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but this is my first CRF rifle. This rifle holds 3 rounds in the mag and I'd like to load a 4th in the chamber. I've read where you should not simply drop one in the chamber and close the bolt since this forces the extractor over the rim of the case. I called Ruger with this question and they told me it was perfectly OK to do this but did say it would require more force to close the bolt. Doesn't sound quite right to me. Is this OK or is there a trick to loading that 4th round? I figured I'd ask here since I'm always impressed with the wealth of knowledge that folks here are willing to share.

Here's what I do with my Mod 70 .375. Fill the mag and put a fourth round on top, hold the round partially down with your left hand fingers (from underneath, you wil be supporting the rifle with your left hand) while sliding the bolt forward. The round will act as though you are loading it from the magazine and you will now have one in the chamber and 3 down. I practice this with dummies (walking, not looking etc) and do quite well.

_Baxter

Thanks BasterB - It works on the RSM as well. Now the question is "why didn't I think of that."

I don't think you will have any problems just dropping the round in the chamber. Yes, the bolt will close a little harder as the extractor goes over the rim, but not really a problem. The method described by Baxter B works also - I don't really see much difference from a functional perspective. I generally load my .416 Rigby with 4 rounds when after DG. I haven't seen any problems develop.
Good Luck,
Bill

The extractor face has a bevel on it so it is EASIER for the extractor to snap over and in place on a round that is already in the chamber. This said I NEVER do it this way. The way Baxter mentions is perfect and I can see no good reason to do it any other way. 1st rule of gunsmithing is don't force anything. Pushing the extractor over the case rim is forcing it over. Be nice to your rifle.

Thanks for all the help guys. I knew I'd find an answer to my question with this group. I'll be using Baxters method.

I feed one into the magazine on the RSM, turn it over open the floorplate and drop three cartridges in and close the floorplate. That is easier than going through the other gymnastics to me.

Simply load the magazine, drop one in the chamber.hold the top one in the magazine down as you described, and close the bolt. The Ruger is a semi-controlled round feeder. If it was a true controlled round feeder it would have to be fed from the magazine.....period. Do not try jstevens technique as the have to be stacked in a certain order in the magazine and not just thrown in there from the bottom. Dr.C

when pushing the round into the magazine, it is being fed from the magazine, i cannot envision the difference whether the thing is completely encased by the lips of the magazine or very close to it. What is the difference between a 'true' crf and a ruger etc?

_BAxter

In a true crf, if a round is placed in the chamber by say dropping it in there the bolt will not close over the case head. Dr.C

doccash

They just have to be put in as above, right side first. The floorplate won't close if you do it wrong, that's all.

Amen!

Ruger told you right. It does not hurt a thing to throw the 4th round right into the chamber, on a Ruger RSM (or a Hawkeye or MkII M77 or Winchester M70 Classic or Pre-64, or Dakota 76, etc.) and close the bolt, to have the extractor slip over the rim as the bolt is closed with a fully chambered round and a full box. They were designed to do this.

They are not true Mausers. But they are indeed CRF (Controlled Round Feeding), though they are not CRE (Controlled Round Extracting).

A true Mauser is both CRF and CRE. The harder the bolt is retracted on a Mauser with a stuck case, the harder it grips the case, and it will not let go until it tears the rim off where the extractor holds that portion of the rim, if the case is really stuck that hard ... a rare catastrophe indeed.

I thought I read this somewhere so I don't want to take the credit for it... but in my .416 M70 I load 3 in the magazine and then just barely start the fourth in the chamber, hold down the one in the top of the magazine, lean the rifle about 90 degrees to the left and close the bolt. The cartridge easily slips under the extractor with very little noise or force. It seems like the quickest and simplest way to do it but maybe that's just my rifle.

Hope that helps,
Kyler

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:
Thanks for all the help guys. I knew I'd find an answer to my question with this group. I'll be using Baxters method.

From now on I think this should be officially refered to as - "The Baxter Method" OK? It sounds very official...

Matt, I'll second that!! :-) Sounds like some fancy new scientific study result...

I;ll have to add that accomplishment to my signature...

_BAxter

Thanks Doc. I have never owned a MAuser so I guess I've not known about the 'true' crf not being able to close (even forcefully) over a round already in the chamber. IN that case, I might prefer the Winchester types where, say I needed to be able to do it in an absolute pinch, I could. Will investigate more...


BAxter

Damn,

I learn something new everyday...

Jeff

I believe a lot of the inability to close on a chambered round with a M98 (CRF) is due simply to the extractor design. I have (and do) own quite a few mausers. While it is not impossible to close on a chambered round, it is generally difficult. The effort varies from gun to gun. I also happen to own a pretty rare piece which I built years ago based on the old MarkX single shot action. I believe this was a direct copy of the FN single shot they used to make, of which I have only seen one (a friend in high school had the first custom varmint rig I ever shot built on it). Anyway, lacking a magazine, it must by necessity be chamber loaded. It closes with no appreciable effort. The only difference is the outside shape of the extractor. I have actually swapped the bolt with several normal mauser actions, and it functions perfectly with them (as far as feeding is concerned). The extractor has a wide, moderate bevel on the front that slips slickly over the case head. I have often wondered why this design hasn't been copied by someone as an aftermarket piece. It is likely possible to modify a standard extractor to do the same. There is obviously no point in a modern firearm to be restricted to magazine only loading with a CRF action. It may have been necessary on the battlefield with questionable ammo and sloppy chambers, but with a properly chambered rifle and proper ammo, it is not necessary. I would never use a rifle with a chamber/ammo mismatch so bad that round could chamber in front of the extractor.

A trick the WW II German soldiers used to get a 6th round in their Mausers was to fill up the magazine, drop a round in the chamber, start closing the bolt, then press in on the middle of the extractor which releived extractor tension, allowing the round to chamber without possibly snapping the extractor hook off. My CZ .416 Rigby holds 4 rounds in the magazine and I use this method to get the 5th round in the rifle without fear of breaking or damaging the extractor. Give it a try, it works.

Tom,

Your exactly right. This method avoids any possibility of breaking the extractor. This allows the 4th round up the spout.

Mark

I always fill the mag on my M77 .458 and then drop one into the chamber and close the bolt after the round is in the chamber. I admit, I've wondered if this might not be a good idea, but I wasn't smart enough to thins of something else. It never failed on ele or buff in firing or extracting the round loaded in this fashion.

John "Oom Janie" Buhmiller swore he would never go on an elephant or buffalo cull with a Mauser that was not modified to allow a pushfeed to top off the box. That was just a speed thing for reloading, rather than having to fumble with the pressure on the side of the claw extractor.

Oom Janie wrote about how he did it, beveling the extractor gripping edge and making a little extra slop in the recess so the extractor could move outward a bit.

This does not defeat the "self locking" feature of the true Mauser extractor, which comes from the circumferential dovetail tongue-in-groove on the bolt body that pulls the extractor inward as the bolt is retracted.

Any Mauser can be topped off with the finger pressure on the middle of the long claw extractor as the bolt is closed. That extractor had best be good spring steel so it will not suffer.

I think the best of all is a Mauser so modified to accept a pushfed topping off cartridge, same as the Rugers and Winchesters and Dakotas.

John Buhmiller obviously thought so too.

something I dont understand about the 'feeding off the top' IF you load the magazine, then just throw a round in and slam the bolt shut, you are in deep poop. THe bolt will catch the first round in the magazine and double-feed. In order to 'push'feed a round on top of a loaded magazine, it is necessary to push the top round down anyway to clear the bolt of the rim of the first round in the magazine. IF thats the case, why not just slightly push the round into the mag and allow it to feed under that extractor and avoid completely the 'snapping over'? IT's way more chancy (to me) to try to have a round halfway in the chamber, loose, then push the round down to clear it, then have the extractor snap over.

_BAxter

Load the magazine, then drop one in the chamber, then press very hard on the extractor with your left hand as you hold the rifle and ease the bolt down on the chambered round. This cocks the extractor up and will allow it to go over the rim of the cartridge. However on a Ruger the factory is correct, just close the bolt on the round in the chamber, they designed it that way and they know how their guns work..

The above method will work on any true controled round Mauser or Win. M-70.

some gunsmiths modify the Mauser and M-70 to ride over the rims, but this IMO weakens the extractor lip and is a recipe for disaster on a DGR..

Baxter,
Of course you thumb the top cartridge in the box down when doing any of these to prevent a double feed. That goes without saying, it is understood.

Some rifles do not have enough room in the box to depress the cartridges there deep enough to allow the topping-off round to begin CRF without a lot of fuss and fumbling. Some do have plenty of room to do this, and when I can I do it that way, and every way discussed here so far.

The M70 and Mauser extractor confusion still persists? Anyone who studies them in his hands will understand. A look at a drawing in Stuart Ottesen's book will make the genius of the self-locking Mauser extractor feature obvious.

Modifying the Mauser to M70-snap-over ability, when done properly, does not defeat the self-locking Mauser feature, nor void a DGR capability.

If it did, then all the M70 Pre-64's and Classics, Ruger RSM's and Hawkeye's, and Dakota 76's, etc. would be worthless as DGR's, and that just ain't so.

RIP,

didnt consider some mags were so tight on tolerance that they would not allow a partial loading of the 4th (or whatever round) All of my rifles allow me to to do this. Will check out the book you mention.

_Cheers,

_BAxter

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
RIP,

didnt consider some mags were so tight on tolerance that they would not allow a partial loading of the 4th (or whatever round) All of my rifles allow me to to do this. Will check out the book you mention.

_Cheers,

_BAxter

I am surprised this works with the RSM in 416 Rigby.

It does not work with my RSM in 470 Mbogo (which is a blown out Rigby case). Not even close!! In fact, with mine I can BARELY close the bolt on three down (the bolt creases the shoulder of the case!).

I am surprised the removal of the case taper of the Rigby case would make that big of a difference, especially since the base/case head is identical.

All-knowing RSM guy, RIP...what say you? Is there a difference in vintage of RSM as far as magazine depth goes?

Cheers
Canuck

Canuck,
Thanks for playing straight man for this schtick. You have just pointed out what a large amount of body taper the .416 Rigby has (take note Buliwyf), and how that box with the minimum-taper 470 Mbogo makes CRF-ing the 4th cartridge impossible "off the top." It is too tight for me to mess with in .416 Rigby too, so I just drop that 4th cartridge directly into the chamber and digitally hold the 3-in-the-box cartridges down enough to close the bolt.

BTW, those RSM's with their recoil-plate bedding systems are very accurate eh? I recall your 470 Mbogo targets. Gerard posted this 115-yard group of mine on his website at my request. This is the Botswana Buffalo-One-Shot-Killer (BOSK) load with Buhmiller-O'Connor-Powder (BOP)charge, producing a 0.140 MOA 3-shot group with .416/380-grain GSC FN at 2509 fps (Ruger .416 Rigby RSM Second Generation):



Acronyms for "African Hunting Related" (AHR) aspects of this thread include BOP and BOSK.

I am in the middle of moving right now, but as soon as I am finished, I will take a picture of a standard Mauser extractor beside a commercial (Mk X) extractor designed specifically for snap over loading. It works perfectly, and I see no apparent deficiency in its design vs the normal. I think it would be great if someone would introduce a replacement extractor which duplicates this design. I don't think it has been available since the FN single shots and the Mk X singles were available.