Dear China fleet sailor-I notice Alan got you to 20yds!Exactly as explained to me he would.

Well ya know...I gotta admit that this thread has given me a sense of vindication, that I'm not the only freakin' fool out there who sometimes shoots African animals from long distance. And all the reasons stated by guys like Saeed and Another AZ Writer (would love to know your identity sir and just chat with you because you sound like one hell of a marksman), are the same reasons I have on why sometimes I dial long distance.

Yet three years ago, some guy was barbecuing me in this very same forum, for seeing on some of my videos that I was shooting warthog, zebra and hartebeests from 400 yards. Not DG just PG. The criticism kinda stung, especially since the animals were dropping dead in their tracks and i wasn't doing anything illegal.

Crazyhorse et. al., where were ya when I needed ya? You and I could have ponied up with each other and given this guy (won't mention his name) some resistance and a tongue lashing for coming down so hard on me about my very legal hunting methods and ethics.

If I'm hearing most of the posters correctly, it's OK to shoot from longer distances if you're responsible, aware of your rifle/bullet capabilities and have invested a substantial amount of fair chase with the animal. Some have even stated, distance is immaterial.

JPK, who's a fine hunter prefers a close encounter especially with his favorite, elephants. And that's OK too.

Overall there have been extremely intelligent remarks made by very experienced African hunters. And that's what I wanted when I signed up to this forum.

KPete, thanks for a great leadoff at bat and by no means am I trying to close this thing out. Keep the great analytical commentary coming. Just wanted to say thanks to all the guys who've made me feel like I'm no longer a black sheep in the hunting world. (Did I really type that?)

quote:

it's OK to shoot from longer distances if you're responsible, aware of your rifle/bullet capabilities

That's what I'm saying to a "T".


"Just wanted to say thanks to all the guys who've made me feel like I'm no longer a black sheep in the hunting world."

Now that's funny! Good one Mark.

Brett

This brings up another point.

Years ago, I used to take two rifles in my hunts.

One is supposed to be for plains game, and would cover any eventuality of having to shoot animals at the longer ranges.

The other was either a 375 or a 416 for buffalo, elephant and lion.

I used to carry which ever rifle is suitable for the game we are after.

One year we were following a sable, and I had a 270 Ackley we built ourselves. On the way, we came across the tracks of a lion, and I jokingly mentioned to my PH that I had the wrong rifle for a lion.

He said "We won't tell him if we see him, and I doubt he will notice the difference"

On another ocassion I had a 7.21 Lazzeroni Firehawk for plains game, along with my 375/404.

It was the first day of our safari, and we wanted to shoot some impala for leopard bait.

After missing a few easy shots, then managing t kill one at close range, we discovered that the action was loose on that rifle. And there was no way we could tighten it, as we did not have the right Allen key with us.

So I decided to us the 375/404.

A couple of hours later we had 4 more impala, with 4 shots, the furthest shot was over 400 yards away.

I made up my mind then that I would make myself another 375/404, and take two identical rifles on safari. And use them for everything.

That plan has worked so well for so many years. The rifles are used by most of my friends who hunt with me.

And the rifles have proven their ability to kill anything we encounter on safari.

Whether at 10 or 500 yards.

I personally do not strive to shoot at long distances. And would try our best to get close to animals.

But, I would not pass on a shot at an animal if he was in the clear, and I think I can hit him, regardless of how far he is.

I have passed on shots that were very clos, because for one reason or another, I didn not think I could make a killing shot.

Another good reason for using a 375 rather than one of the larger calibers.

Mark,

I have been called the "black sheep" of the family, and I am very proud of it.

Hey, me too Saeed and Marc! I guess we have a flock of us around. (Black sheep) I think that it might have something to do with being experienced and somewhat opinionated.

Nothing makes me wanting to shoot a buf at long distance... I want to close in and make the shot... However if wounded I would not hesitate to fire away at long distance if need be...

Mike

What can I say? On my first safari to RSA for plains game, I was hammered for carrying a 45-110 Sharps shooting traditional 511 grain lead paper patched bullets. No scope. Barrel buckhorn ladder sight and a blade front. Not proper, just isn't done. Won't work.

My first animal in Africa was a kudu at 302 yards on the leica laser rangefinder, one shot, complete pass through, dead right there. I think the PH was a little surprised, but I told him I could make the shot.

Animal number two was a black wildebeast. I broke both of his shoulders, complete pass through. 225 yards. It was as close as we could get, and I wanted the animal. I had a good sight picture, so I took the shot and killed the wildebeast.

Next was a springbuck at 325 yards. Again, I had a good sight picture, knew the distance, and set the sight. A good trigger break killed the springbuck. The PH quit worrying about me and the rifle.

There was a gemsbok with one shot at 196, a blue wildebeast at 312 and an impala at 229. I have all of the above on dvd, and some members here have seen it.

To me, you must be CLOSE ENOUGH to make the shot you are willing to take, and that is usually dictated by circumstance and the requirements of the moment. I see absolutely no need to crawl an extra 200 yards through cactus to get within 100 yards of an animal I want, if I have both the capability and ability to make a killing shot at 300.

I am planning on a hunt for Cape Buffalo in 2010, and intend to use the Sharps. If I can pick my shot, I would prefer to have him at 100 yards rather than 50. Why? Because I can hit a tennis ball with the Sharps at 100 yards and a grapefruit at 200 with monotonous regularity, and shoot all the way through the animal. It will kill him dead as a hammer, and that's why I am going--to kill a Cape Buffalo with my rifle. My ethics require of me to not take a shot that is beyond my capabilities or those of my rifle. I shoot to kill, not to wound, and if I kill at a longer distance than others do, I am good with that and I can sleep at night.

I guess if you practice and learn how to shoot a particular rifle at extended ranges AND THEN USE IT at those ranges, you are guilty of being a black sheep. I confess to being a black sheep, but somehow I think I am in pretty good company.

Sharpsguy: Nicely wrtten-well said. Welcome to the "club".

quote:

I am planning on a hunt for Cape Buffalo in 2010, and intend to use the Sharps.

really?

Sharps Guy, Welcome to the AR and Best of Luck on your Cape with the Sharps.

Sounds like with your experience with your rifles and your confidence in your abilities, that Big Sharps will do the job you ask of it.

I think one of the problems, and someone else may have mentioned it, but some folks, and I am just as Paranoid as any one when it comes down to what the anti's will do with this information, but to me, if some one is confident enough of their abilities with their rifle(s), as to placing a killing shot at whatever distance they choose, then so be it.

I do add this, I do not agree with the practice of sitting back and taking long shots, just for the sake of taking such a shot if with a little effort the range can be narrowed.

Please notice, I stated that "I" don't agree with it, but that does not mean that I am going to claim someone that is willing to take such shots as not being a true hunter or being unethical.

If a person, any person is confident of making a killing shot at whatever range they choose, More Power To Them, and I don't feel that any of the rest of us should question their ethics. JMO.

Sable Trail and Crazy Horse, thanks for the kind words. The rifle did the job on the first safari, as well as the second. In the hands of a man that knows how to use it, the Sharps is a remarkable instrument.

As far as odie wondering if I am going to use the Sharps on a Cape Buffalo, my reply is "Really". I really and truly am.

Gentlemen: Sharpsguy made ME a believer with his rifle/caliber combo. A mutual friend gave me a brand new Shiloh-Sharps in 45-110 as a retirement gift and I have to admit I was a skeptic. Well Sharpsguy was kind enough to invite me out to his place (he has a FIVE HUNDRED YARD range out his back door, how cool is that????) and in two days I was casting, loading and shooting and smacking the 500 yard ram silhouette, with the 100-300 yard ones with boring regularity. That's with ladder sights folks! Aside from the single shot issue, that 45-100 would have no problems with a buffalo at just about any range. Believe it! jorge

SharpsGuy, sounds like you're a hell of a shot and your rifle sounds wonderful.

Regards,

Chuck

I have a difficult time with this type of discussion because I guess I have different priorities than some others. I feel as a hunter I have an obligation to the animal to only take a shot that gives me a high percentage of success whether 10 yards or 150 yards. That animal does not owe me an adrenalin rush! We owe a swift and efficient death to the animal. My first safari I took an ill advised shot at a buffalo and wounded it. What followed was a day and a half of terror poking around in the heavy cover wondering if and when we would find him. We never did and I learned a valuable lesson. I realized my decision was irresponsible and caused suffering for the animal. I put my PH and his trackers in danger and I put myself in harms way. I have a family who depend on me and believe me you think of those things and the results of your actions. I do not see how anyone can speak in such absolutes about right and wrong when it comes to hunting.
I had a couple PHs talking about some of their daredevil European hunters who wanted to touch the elephant before it was shot. Some sort of matador mentality.
I notice most who want to be in spiting distance of the dangerous game have big double rifles in their posts. Will that be next? It isn't dangerous game unless you are shooting a small caliber single shot???

Sharpsguy: Since "Quigley Down Under" was one of my favorite movies and he shot the same rifle and caliber that you shoot, I've got to watch that movie again and picture some of your and jorge's shooting!

I spent some time over a couple of days with Sharpsguy at the Eastern Sports Show in Harrisburg, Pa. I watched him make the shots mentioned above... I have to admit watching the DVD he made it look simplisticly easy... I spoke at length with him and how he shoots right behind his house and we all practice makes perfect

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by SableTrail:
... Another AZ Writer (would love to know your identity sir and just chat with you because you sound like one hell of a marksmanld

He is. He practices alot and shoots well. We both sighted our guns at 200yds the first day.

We took some long shots on that hunt at reedbuck, Waterbuck etc.

I was pretty impressed.

Patrick Sweeney wrote an article titled Accuracy 101 and said in part

"Were I to go off and search out a suitable Cape buffalo, I would not take a Sharps buffalo rifle. Yes, it is accurate and has plenty of power, but when playing tag for keeps, I want more bullets, not less. Selecting a rifle solely because it is accurate is somewhat like selecting a mate on one physical attribute. Those who have done it usually regret it."

or worse, do others become collateral victims

odie--I don't know Patrick Sweeney. Never heard of him, in fact. However, according to your quote, he feels the Sharps is unsuitable not because of a lack of power or accuracy, but because it is a single shot and he feels he might need more than one bullet.

The fact is, I can load and shoot subsequent shots with my Sharps as fast or faster than a lot of guys with a bolt gun. No rifle is as fast as a double rifle for two shots, but if a bolt gun is considered suitable for Cape Buffalo from the standpoint of being able to deliver a follow up shot--and it is, my Sharps and I are certainly in the game from the standpoint of follow up shots.

I have to say that Mr. Sweeney needs to learn more about using a Sharps, as his knowledge in this area is sadly deficient.

Credibility is such a fragile thing.

The hyperbole on this thread has been revealing.

IMO you get in as close as you can and then take the shot. If its 200 yards or 5 it doesnt matter. Here is a my ~100 yards ele shot. No way getting closer - 5 minutes after sunset and a big Elephant ! Would i take that shot again - absolutly !

Elephant Zimbabwe -08

odie--I am not dealing in hyperbole. If you had been at the last AR Big Bore Shoot in Houston you would have seen what I am talking about.

No BS here, pal. What is revealing is your ignorance.

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
I spent some time over a couple of days with Sharpsguy at the Eastern Sports Show in Harrisburg, Pa. I watched him make the shots mentioned above... I have to admit watching the DVD he made it look simplisticly easy... I spoke at length with him and how he shoots right behind his house and we all practice makes perfect


Mike

Mike I've been to Sharpsguy's home and he has a great set-up there for getting to know his rifles intimately! he has a very long range shooting range in his back yard. I went there to trade him a new unfired 458Win Mag Ruger No1, for a percussion double rifle, and had a great lunch with him and his wife.

His wife not only knows how to cook, but shoots those Sharps rifles very well too. He has a beautiful collection of Sharps rifles, and knows what they were made for. I’d have him back my play anytime!

Wow are we off topic. But since we are, I would certainly enjoy and learn from a discription and explanation of how a muzzle loader rifle can be fired on shot #1, loaded and shot again for #2 as quickly as a bolt rifle with a full magazine can be shot twice.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by csxcs:
Here is a my ~100 yards ele shot. No way getting closer - 5 minutes after sunset and a big Elephant ! Would i take that shot again -

I am glad you posted that. You take the opportunity when it is presented. To pass it in hopes of finding the the exact situation that you want is foolish.

Just because most Elephant are shot at under 50 yards does not mean you have to shoot an Elephant under 50 yards.

I am sure you would have prefered a closer shot, but that is not what the red gods offered on this day.

Would I have taken that shot? Of course I would.

Would I have wanted a closer shot? Probably just as much as csxcs would have, but it was not to be.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Wow are we off topic. But since we are, I would certainly enjoy and learn from a discription and explanation of how a muzzle loader rifle can be fired on shot #1, loaded and shot again for #2 as quickly as a bolt rifle with a full magazine can be shot twice.

JPK

JPK, did I miss something, where did anyone say anything about a muzzleloader?

JPK--You are in the dark. Here is a ray of light. A Sharps model 1874 is NOT a muzzleloader. It is a cartridge rifle, and it has an ejector which will kick the empty case well clear of the action. My Sharps is a 45 caliber rifle shooting a 511 to 540 grain bullet depending on bullet choice. The case is a straight walled rimmed case that is 2.875 inches long. And yes, I can shoot follow up shots as fast as most guys with a bolt gun.

Here are some choices of a Sharps...

http://www.shilohrifle.com/model1874.html


Mike

Some of the talk being thrown about by some folks on here really make you realize how tremendous a liar, all those hunters back before breech loading cartridge rifles came into being, actually were.

I mean from the way some folks are talking, NO ONE EVER killed an Elephant or a Cape Buffalo, or anything else on the African continent, with any of the older Black Powder cartridge Double and Single shot rifles, let alone a Muzzle Loader.

The sheer heresy of someone even talking about attempting to hunt something with anything less than a modern bolt action rifle, and having all those readily available follow up shots, in case there was more concern about needing the follow ups instead of placing the first shot properly, is totally beyond belief.



We Are ALL So Much Cooler On Line, And Know A Hell Of A Lot More Than We Really Do.

The Original Post was about one perons concept on the issue of taking shots at DG at what some people might consider, Non DG ranges, and the supposed ETHICS of such practices.

I would bet EVERY damn one of us, if we thought about it, could find something EVERYONE else does, that does not really mesh with our own Personal Ethics, when it comes to hunting.

The bigger picture that everyone needs to keep in mind, is that as long as those other folks that don't see things just exactly as we do as individuals, are comfortable doing what ever it is they are doing, and it is LEGAL, then as a group, need to keep our Personal Ideas at to the ETHICS of what that person/those people are doing that we don't agree with, to our selves.

Lastly, the "Lame Ass" old reasoning for raising the question of "ETHICS" of certain ways of hunting, because of the way the ANTI-HUNTING crowd could use those "So-Called Unetical" practices against hunters as a group, are just that, "Lame Ass", because the ANTI's don't give a Fat Rats Ass, whether a method of hunting is ETHICAL or not, they want ALL hunting of any kind stopped, that is all that matters to those folks.

In fact in many folks opinion, the mere fact that such conversations such as this, taking place among hunters actually provides the Anti's with better and much more damning evidence, showing that Hunters, As A Group, do not get along anf are unwilling to set aside Personal opinions and stand as a group against the efforts of the anti's to get our sport outlawed.

Putting the Soap Box away for now.

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:

quote:

Originally posted by SableTrail:
... Another AZ Writer (would love to know your identity sir and just chat with you because you sound like one hell of a marksmanld

He is. He practices alot and shoots well. We both sighted our guns at 200yds the first day.

We took some long shots on that hunt at reedbuck, Waterbuck etc.

I was pretty impressed.

Thanks Wendell. That is like A Rod telling a guy he impressed with his homeruns.

You forgot to mention the wind on that long shot you made. remember when i said, "Hold about 6 inches for the wind?"

Like Sharpsguy said, "Practice makes perfect." Shooting at extended ranges not only teaches you your limits, but it also makes ordinary shots seem easy.

As for the comment about a long shot on a buff being like taking the tram to the mountain, I will say the longest shot on a buff I made was much more physically uncomfortable than any other buff stalk - like I said, we ran out of water after 4 hours and we were stalking for 8. At around 3:30 i just decided to take him. i had shot that .416 at ranges up to 350 yards every week the summer before that trip, so I knew I could do it.

I am hunting buffalo again with Luke Samaris in Dec and I hope to get within 50 yards. But like a Boy Scout, I will be prepared.

SableTrail: I sent you a PM

I have been hunting for over 40 years, and I always felt that game shot at great distances is
A. A Challenge
B. sometimes foolish

I prefer to take MOST game at closer and reasonable distances....only been to Africa
once and that was an Eland at 220 yards.
I have taken Pronghorn antelope as close as 125 yards. I won't knock those who can shoot very far and hit what they are aiming at....I for one....would rather not try it.

Trophy animals - be reasonable.

In terms of hogs, coyotes, baboons, jackals, and other general annoying animals.... there is no such thing as a shot that is to long. Let the lead fly.

Whacked a feral goat at 685 yards last year with a 300 RUM - with no range finder (I ranged it later), while he was on the move on the side of rocky hill. I never would have taken this shot on a trophy animal or even an animal for meat or culling purposes.

Just because it can be done does not mean that it should be done.

The relatively few exceptions do, in fact, prove the validity of the general rule.

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
JPK--You are in the dark. Here is a ray of light. A Sharps model 1874 is NOT a muzzleloader. It is a cartridge rifle, and it has an ejector which will kick the empty case well clear of the action. My Sharps is a 45 caliber rifle shooting a 511 to 540 grain bullet depending on bullet choice. The case is a straight walled rimmed case that is 2.875 inches long. And yes, I can shoot follow up shots as fast as most guys with a bolt gun.

Now I can see how it is possible for a very experienced and familiar Sharps shooter to perhaps exceed the reload speed of a fellow not so accustomed to a bolt rifle.

I was imagining the reloading sequence and thinking, "Hmmm, well maybe with an undersized projectile - but how the heck with a rifle needing a ramrod, uhhh, no way I can see." No wonder, eh?

JPK

Crazyhorseconsulting,

To the extent that your previous post was directed at me - give it a rest, eh?

I have no issues hunting buff with a single shot, or a muzzle loader or in this case - as I am newly informed - a breach loading ejector equiped black powder shooting 45 cal Sharps. Not my choice, not my hunt, not my $'s not my life.

I am one of few here on AR that I know of who have tested on African DG game loads in the class that Sharpsguy is likely to use on buff. In my case, I tested ~525gr hard cast and softer lead bullets at 1500fps muzzle velocity and I tested them on an elephant head. Not elephant medicine, but they will do the job well enough on buff, I think.

In so far as the history of Cape Buffalo hunting and black powder, try reading Baker, who thought an 8 bore rifle shooting hardened bullets was about right and a 577bpe on the light side. The history of elephant hunting with black powder rifles is a history of huge projectiles, exploding shells and constant failure. No wonder the 450NE rendered obsolete the bore rifles within so short a period though so far away from a source.

On the topic of the thread, until your post, the thread was remarkably free of vitriol, though certainly full of different opinions and disagreement.

JPK

quote:

reading Baker, who thought an 8 bore rifle shooting hardened bullets was about right

In his days, Baker did not have much of a choice.

I bet he would have used a 375 if he was alive today!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

reading Baker, who thought an 8 bore rifle shooting hardened bullets was about right

In his days, Baker did not have much of a choice.

I bet he would have used a 375 if he was alive today!

Ain't that the truth! Proffesional hunter in it original meaning, efficiency the goal, five and maybe more rounds, no need or ethic back then to follow the wounded game surely to result from using a small bore rifle.

JPK

You are a week into a 10 day hunt. You have walked to within 50 yards of the heard bull several time but ther was no shot presented. You have had buff completely around you several times.

This morning you are again on the edge of the herd ,the bull of a life time steps out at distance x. There is no way to get closer!!!!


Case 1

You are carrying you fixed sight double or bolt gun, he steps out at 110 yards. You can WAC clay targets at that distance all day long at that distance, you take the shot and clean kill results.


Case 2

Same as case 1 but at 300 yards with scoped sighted rifle that will shot 3" all day long at that distance.


Is the hunter less of a man to take the buff at that distance. No way! I would take either shot in a heart beat.
I am there for the trophy, I have closed the distance that I know I will kill cleanly at. If you want dangerous game try preaching to me that I am a slob for taking my animal at distance x after walking among them and doing the work to find the right animal. I have spent the time and money to be proficient at that range.


Case 3

Your Ph walks you up to a bull, who can barely see or hear you. After all you got with in 10 yards. He throws up the sticks, you look in your 1.5 Leo and and know you can keep a six inch group at that distance with your 375 (You can't shoot anything bigger). Your rifle speaks and the Ph follows up because your not using enough gun and your are just a little off. Its kind of like walking up to Mike Tyson with a body guard armed with a taser and telling him he's a ugly sob. Its the Ph or body guard who will sort things out if it comes to it.

Don't beat your chest and tell me your a bad ass because you walk up close and personal with some one holding your hand.

We have a lawful right to hunt. A hunter must close the distance need to make a clean and humane shot and follow the laws. Other than that you do not need to explain or justify you hunt to any one.. The guy who tells me I have to do it his way, is no better than the Peta a-hole who is telling me I am sub human for doing it at all. Its all about their need to control me, and to validate them selfs.

Case 3 was a tainted view of what would be a hunt for a life time for most hunters. I wrote it that way to show how harmful high ethics can be.

After all it should have been done with a 500 double with out sticks with the Ph back in camp on the second phase of the moon on the very last day of the hunt.

JD

A great quote from a Zim Ph:

"It's not the trophies that make the hunt, it's the hunt that makes the trophies."

We know from this thread and past threads that this means different things to different hunters.

JPK

If you can't get any closer and you know you can make a clean kill a long shot isn't unethical IMHO.