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One of Us |
Todd my simple point I was trying to make was that it is almost always the people that turn a situation into a dangerous one, not the rifle or the animal. As you yourself said "99% of the time, there is no real danger" but that 1% where it goes wrong is always caused by the hunter and accomplices not the game suddenly becoming more dangerous. Enough people have been killed by red stag and cattle beast but we don't regard these as "Dangerous Game". It is people who have put themselves in a situation they shouldn't have who are the danger. BTW if the elephant hunting video you speak of is what I have a copy off, my 5 year old grandson and 3 year old grand-daughter think you should get new pants as the ones you are crawling through the jesse with have holes in the backside. That video has just about been worn out by them. They do go out hunting with dad and granddad but not for elephant | |||
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Please answer the following... Was the lion not brained with a 416cal bullet at less than 5 feet to get him off the PH? Did this not switch off the lights for the cat or was he just wounded? The spasms in the hind leg looks like a normal reaction for a brained animal. The drill is to fire an insurance shot with DG, due to the rifle problem the PH made use of immediate best 2nd option... Loaded high power rifles next to him instead of putting the rifle down and try and engage the lion with his pistol...? Did he stand next to the downed PH untill the back up shots were fired or not? Stopping the guys after the 2nd shot on the ground is to prevent further trophy damage to the scull and skin as well as safety for the downed PH a few feet away. He was in way more danger from those shots than the lion getting back up again.... Where can you go do training the world on how to stop a charging lion coming in at 70ft per second during a full blown charge??? For those who did not know 70ft per second is the charge speed of a lion and leopard.... He sent one of the trackers to the truck to get the 1st aid kit and then he was on the radio to the camp with instructions to the camp to immediately call for a casavac helicopter. Gerhard FFF Safaris Capture Your African Moments Hunting Outfitter (MP&LP) Proffesional Hunter (MP&LP) History guide Wildlife Photographer www.fffsafaris.co.za | |||
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When I asked a Hornady rep at SCI a few years ago about the amount of pressure the .416 Ruger develops in that small case, he said, "I'll go ask the manager" and never came back. This (and it's fantastic bullets for the day) is precisely why the .416 Rigby was so respected over the years. See Kevin Robertson's discussion of the .416 Remington in "Arica's Most Dangerous". I like these cartridges, but would download them a bit if going to a hot climate. USMC Retired DSC Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Honest question here...if this was a "hot load" issue or similar would you typically be able to still lift the bolt handle up? It looks like he's able to lift the bolt handle, but can't pull the bolt back...this tells me it's a mechanical failure not a stuck bolt due to thrust. | |||
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Over the years, I've learned to practice/train as if there will be no PH back-up, essential equipment will fail, and well-made plans will evaporate. Though one can't practice for all possible eventualities, my practice/training prior to a DG hunt assumes that something/everything will go wrong. And it's well worth attending the many 'Safari Schools', if only to gauge how big an elephant appears at close range, or how fast a buff can charge. I try to practice rapid reloading combined with movement, not just shooting off sticks or at the bench. This builds 'muscle memory', and can highlight deficiencies in technique and equipment. 'Proper positive prior planning, practice & preparation possibly & probably prevents painfully piss poor performance' ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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It is certainly funny, but you have never seen MS tempt a lion to charge from close quarters or any other distance like he does with Buffalo and Hippo! Now what would be funny would be to see the look on his face when that exercise was over if he did! That show would be worth the price of admission! ………………………………………………………………………….................... .......................... . ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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The fact is, sense these guys were moving in on a Cape buffalo, and it seems they stumbled onto a lion at very close range which charged them catching them by surprise. Their eyes being expecting to see a big black buffalo they missed seeing the lion till he charged from very close. It is a wonder to me that they stopped him at all under those conditions. This was not a comparatively slow buffalo compared to a big male lion. There is a place for Monday morning quarterbacks who may or may not know what they are arguing about, but I think most commenting wouldn't have done as well as these guys did! Lions are lightening fast, and harder to hit the closer they get, because the shot angle changes so severely the closer they get, and as close as this charge started it is a wonder they hit him at all. .........................Just one mans opinion, right or wrong! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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1. I very much doubt the Buffalo was in close proximity with the Lion unless it too was being tracked by the Lion. 2. A Lion will not normally charge in that manner unless it was wounded or surprised at very close quarters (which it was not) and which puts that as question pending. In all my years in the sticks I have never been charged by any Lions that were stumbled upon, some of which at mere paces. It was just a grunt or growl and a thankfully fast-retreating rear end. While roaming around in the vehicle we did encounter some mock charges performed by the occasional female (never by males). IMO there's more to this story than meets the eye. | |||
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Opinions vary among people on occasion! It seems we disagree but that is what makes a debate! ................................................................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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The Ruger 416 cartridge matches the ballistics of a .416 Rem Mag, but in a shorter case. I wonder if the pressure gets too high on hot days (one of the original complaints for the .416 Rem Mag, which I have never experienced.) BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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Good thing he wasn't using a Rem 700. | |||
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Never come across this apart from if the Lion was shot at or wounded. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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To all the armchair critics, if you could understand Afrikaans you would appreciate the calm precise orders that went out. The only thing that went wrong afterwards was the mechanical failure of cycling a round.That was no fault of his it could have happened to any rifle anywhere. Although I have hunted toothless elephant cows in the Zambezi valley (Sapi) as an observer on the ground without a rifle, I have not hunted lion or leopard. However I was a mechanized infantry soldier that have seen active service. No one can predict how he is going to react in a specific situation. And the way you are going to react is going to change from situation to situation as the drama unfolds. Adrenaline and shock and blood and guts and friend leaking can be bugger. | |||
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The PH's origins or nationality have nothing to do with the outcome.It seems that even if the bolt did not jam it would not have changed the outcome.I disagree on it not being the PH"s fault that his bolt rifle jammed.Bolt rifles don't just jam all of a sudden without a history of doing so. | |||
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Yeah, in addition to the gun going off when moving the safety from safe to on, or a bullet falling out because the safety doesn't lock the bolt, or the bolt handle becoming unglued, not to mention the cheap, flimsy sheet metal ejector failing. 700, the biggest SCAM perpetrated on the sport in history. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Sad, just sad....... . | |||
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After watching that my first thought was how hard it would be to deal with a charging animal with a scoped rifle. | |||
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Actually, renowned Alaskan Guide Phil Shoemaker did some testing and wrote an article a few years ago and his results were the opposite. A low power cope was FASTER. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I completely agree with Shoemaker's work. Especially if the optic has a TRUE 1x setting, which can be used with both eyes open like a reflex sight on an M4. The 3-gun and tac-rifle competition shooters went to low power optics many years ago. Also, the durability of quality optics is improving every year. | |||
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from what i remembered Jorge it all depend on eyes also ... that thread will help your memory ... https://www.24hourcampfire.com...em_mag_or_.458_Win_m Phil | |||
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MV: Thanks for posting that link. Excellent writeup by Phil USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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The thing with moving targets (especially if a DG animal is charging towards you), is that the coolest shot in the world cannot make every shot a stopper. An inch or two in any direction can make a "stop" turn into a mauling/stomping. That is part of the "risk" in DG hunting. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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There are moving targets and there are other moving targets! They are not all the same for the ease of hitting the animal, much less hitting the right spot to stop the charge! A stopping hit is much easier when the animal is as tall as the shooter, like a cape buffalo, or an elephant that presents a target that is above the shooter. In my opinion the hardest target to hit with a stopping hit while charging is the lion and even harder a leopard, because the angle is changing so fast with the cats. The old timers had a habit of dropping to their knees to get on the same level as the lion so the angle does not change the closer he gets to the shooter. ..................................................................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Might also be the reason why some of us have been more fortunate than others. | |||
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It has been my pleasure to break bread and share a few libations with Reinhard both in Africa and the US. I was aware of the mauling at the time and have seen him a few times since but this was the first time I saw the video and realized just how horrific the wounds were. It was much more than just a flesh wound as reported in one of the post. When I see him in January I will buy him a drink and thank the Lord that his life was spared. | |||
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There's not a been a rifle built I do t care what brand or model that won't have a malfunction at some time. I've never been charged by a lion or any other game other than a pig. I have been in several fights with man in Iraq and Afghanistan and you never know how you will react until it happens. You can criticize and say this and that and talk too your buddy's ,and then when it happens some that were talking the loudest about what they would do were the first too piss there pants. | |||
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A Lion charge pails into comparison considering what you have done and sacrificed for your country. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I've seen people do seemingly strange and out of perceived character things in these situations , including running away , freezing or standing their ground by the most unlikely of characters. Nope , I will not be pointing any fingers.. | |||
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If its any consolation a Lion will at least have the decency to announce its presence and intentions from a reasonable distance compared to the charge of pissed off Leopard which will utter that ominous grunt at barely 20 paces (if you're lucky). | |||
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Johny Reb it seems that we share the same line of thought. | |||
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I watched one particularly tense chap on a buff hunt eject a live round followed by dumping his magazine on the ground. Stress is a bitch... for some. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Yup. No one knows until they have been there. | |||
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I have been charged by both a wounded buffalo and bluff charged by a big bull ellie (before I killed him). Yet I agree with the others that being charged by a lion or leopard (or even a bear) is probably the thing that would give most experienced hunters the most stress. Something about an animal that will eat you after finishing you off. brings out the shudders in many people. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
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Most of the old timers didn't seem to get too concerned or have trouble finishing off charging cats. Without exception they got down at ground level and waited until the cat was so close they couldn't miss, I think it was Taylor who said that using a scope and just having a cross hair to line up the shot on an incoming cat made it all seem like slow motion and it was a relatively easy job. These old hunters had more trouble with the larger animals. BTW your signature line is rubbish, you can't really just give the buff a kiss, roll over and go to sleep | |||
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Watch the beginning of the video, the client is already on the sticks before the Lion appeared. Buffalo hunt????? Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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I hope to hear the fellow is doing well. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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Hence my earlier comment: 2. A Lion will not normally charge in that manner unless it was wounded or surprised at very close quarters (which it was not) and which puts that as question pending. | |||
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Thank goodness the PH survived!. However to be a little philosophical. What if one when hunting alone just for an impala for ex and come across a lion unexpectly..you got a problem that could turn into your last problem!. So here is my question. When hunting ordinary pg in generel where lions(or other DG animals) may also be present is it normal to be atleast two hunters for security reasons like what we see on the video. I am not talking about client hunting but an ordinary resident hunter goes to shoot some game for himself. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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Stumbling on a Lion unexpectedly will in most cases produce a fast-disappearing cat unless it is feeding on a kill, wounded or a female with cubs. The chances of being attacked will however be slim (challenged maybe) but with a little bush-craft and common sense you are very likely to walk away unscathed. If the Lion is wounded or a known man-eater you had better be a good shot. | |||
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