quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Shawn - Below is a link you posted last year with multiple Lions taken by MS in Tanzania, in 2013. First off, I THINK THEY ARE ALL FABULOUS LIONS - I AM NOT BASHING ANY OF THEM, OR MS EITHER. I am simply asking for the age results from each lion, as all results have now been given for each lion taken in 2012/2013. Could you get the results, and post those for all of us to see?

IMO, this would be very helpful info for all of us - as it pertains to field judging/aging wild lions. Especially considering that the pics you posted are GOOD photos, and show pretty good detail of each lion. See link below.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...391075191#1391075191

To kick this off, and to show my point - pictured below is the beautiful lion I took in the Lukwati Game Reserve in 2012. I was given the age results of this lion a couple months ago, and much to my surprise - he was aged at 5 yrs old! Frankly, Chris and I were certain he was 6+ at the time of our hunt? According to scientific aging, he's not 6 - and its another lesson learned for me. And another lesson that shows us all, just how difficult it can be to age a lion on the paw. Obviously evident, as TZ recently changed their age limit rules to a more fair (IMO) points type system.

Hi Aaron,

I saw your post question and followed the link to this thread. I will ask Mark if he has any info to share regarding your topic for AR consumption.

Best always,
Shawn

Shawn - Despite the immediate downgrade of this thread, like most here anymore? I honestly thought it would be helpful info for us all to see. It certainly is to me anyway, and in no way is it meant to be inflammatory - that's just silly!! I consider Mark a friend, and frankly - this is not about Mark at all. Its just about what a lot of folks on here estimated the ages to be, versus what they actually are. Knowledge is power!!

Thanks Shawn, appreciate your help sir!!!

I am lost in this whole lion issue thread.

(1) Few simple questions for proposed lion harvesting system

Who is expected to age the lion - the PH or the client? Most clients regardless of their own self perceived notions are just people with a lot of discretionary income on a hobby/lifestyle vacation.

If it is legal and a PH says shoot - is a client supposed to second guess the PH as to age of the lion?

Is there or should there be any lion shooting penalty on the client?


(2) My own biased views

Whenever I see high complicated administrative process I also fear someone is gaming the system to extract economic rents. Be it government officials, outfitters, scientist, environmentalist. Maybe I am just s cyclical glass half empty type.

(3) Lion Fact Question

Does anyone know the total lions imported into the US and the countries from which they originate?

How many are pen raised south african lions ?

Cause if the US Fish and Wildlife is going to ban lion it is going to have to draw a distinction between different types of lions.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Jeff,

Having the worlds leading scientists go on record and state that there is a class of lion that can be harvested with out harming ANY population...IS a good thing.

Lane,
While I agree some kind of delta needs to be agreed upon, it certainly cannot be called science. If aging a lion at 6 means "He's either 5 or maaaybe as old as seven" that isn't science. Throwing chicken bones and reading tea leaves are as accurate as some guesses are.

If Aaron and the PH he's hunting with, whom together have a huge amount of Lion experience get it wrong, how can anyone be expected to follow some arbitrary definition?

I think all this has accomplished is, the average guy who can afford to give Lion hunting just one effort, may decide it's just to complex to risk 60K. For god sakes, it's like reading tax code.

As far as Aaron requesting the aging from Shawn and MS, My bet is he already has the info.

No need to tell me I just don't want to educate myself about this, I don't. Not about this, I pay PH's to decide that shit for me. Besides, If the PH says "No Joy", I don't shoot. Should I also get a GPS and learn the roads in the GMA prior to my arrival?

At some point international sport hunting is just a vacation. If I risk breaking laws or even just some vague unenforceable definition, I and many other will pass.

The loser will be Africa's wildlife and the Lions.

Steve

Steve,
If Obama's cronies list the lion as endagered and make it illegal...the lion and all wildlife looses too.

Under the new rules that Aaron & I lobbied for...the lion is acceptable.

Both Aaron and I always said the 5-6 distinction is difficult.

Which is exactly why I called it voodoo in the first place.

Steve

Being able to lump lion into categories of <5, 5-6, >6 may be voo-doo to you...but I call it pretty darn good science. Life and death decisions are made every day with less exact science.

Steve - I assure you my friend, I do not have the info on the age's of the lions shot by MS or anyone else for that matter! I'm pretty sure that info was not told to anyone, except for the company that each particular lion was shot with. Its NOT public info in other words, not to my knowledge its not. What a silly assumption, but not surprising.

The only one perpetuating the picking of the scab as you put it, is you! I just thought it would be helpful/fun/interesting/informative to see the actual results after all the estimates that were put in by folks in the original thread - and to provide an additional learning tool, etc. Then like usual, you're off again on the whining trail about this, that, and the other - all of which have absolutely nothing to do with my OP!!!!! I never said a word about any of your continued complaints with the lion aging thing that you once again are whining about above - but of course that didn't stop you from creating some big issue that was not any part of what I was asking/hoping for. Like you, I have long been a supporter of MS, and have made no bones about saying so either. The only single thing you have ever done regarding this whole lion aging issue - is WHINE about it, period! Some like me may not have done everything to your satisfaction, but my friend - we at least tried to do something. A something that is now obvious that a whole lot of folks - especially those in the industry and scientific community agree with. Which is a whole lot better than doing nothing, and then whining about what has been done.

Good lord man, does everything with you have to be an argument, or can it ever just be ok to ask a question, or try to get some info I thought might be helpful to myself/others? Or should I PM you first, and ask your permission to pose my question???

Funny thing though, dozens and dozens of hunting organizations, major African outfitters, scientists, and PH's all across Africa have helped to co-author, refine and completely endorse the "Huntable Lion Definition", the Niassa Carnivore project (lion points system) and needed change in lion hunting practices - yet, we should all listen to you and a few others and go with the its voo-doo/BS/irresponsible and no change/action would have been best approach? Ok, I'll go along with the others - but thanks for that.

As normal Steve - this whole thread has already degraded to mud slinging, rather than what I had hoped for/intended it to be, SHOCKER!!!!!

SHAWN - Sir, thanks for the consideration and offer to check with MS. My suggestion, scrap the whole thing. It'll just go from bad to worse, and I certainly would not want to see Mark catching anymore grief than he gets here already - should there be any reason for it?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Aaron,

What were the 5 year old distinctions?

Jeff

The main one, and I am not sure it can been seen in these pics is the overall width/breadth of the skull/head. You can see it pretty good on the video of my shooting the lion. When Paula really showed it to me, it was actually kinda obvious - but I overlooked it at the time apparently?

So a field measurment based on Roland Wards 24 inches would be ideal if you could make the anatomic distintion on the hoof so to speak.

Jeff

Aaron,

I received your PM. I will disregard and no worries.

Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Jeff,

Having the worlds leading scientists go on record and state that there is a class of lion that can be harvested with out harming ANY population...IS a good thing.

Lane,
While I agree some kind of delta needs to be agreed upon, it certainly cannot be called science. If aging a lion at 6 means "He's either 5 or maaaybe as old as seven" that isn't science. Throwing chicken bones and reading tea leaves are as accurate as some guesses are.

If Aaron and the PH he's hunting with, whom together have a huge amount of Lion experience get it wrong, how can anyone be expected to follow some arbitrary definition?

I think all this has accomplished is, the average guy who can afford to give Lion hunting just one effort, may decide it's just to complex to risk 60K. For god sakes, it's like reading tax code.

As far as Aaron requesting the aging from Shawn and MS, My bet is he already has the info.

No need to tell me I just don't want to educate myself about this, I don't. Not about this, I pay PH's to decide that shit for me. Besides, If the PH says "No Joy", I don't shoot. Should I also get a GPS and learn the roads in the GMA prior to my arrival?

At some point international sport hunting is just a vacation. If I risk breaking laws or even just some vague unenforceable definition, I and many other will pass.

The loser will be Africa's wildlife and the Lions.

Steve

Steve,
If Obama's cronies list the lion as endagered and make it illegal...the lion and all wildlife looses too.

Under the new rules that Aaron & I lobbied for...the lion is acceptable.

Both Aaron and I always said the 5-6 distinction is difficult.

Which is exactly why I called it voodoo in the first place.

Steve

Being able to lump lion into categories of <5, 5-6, >6 may be voo-doo to you...but I call it pretty darn good science. Life and death decisions are made every day with less exact science.

Steve - I assure you my friend, I do not have the info on the age's of the lions shot by MS or anyone else for that matter! I'm pretty sure that info was not told to anyone, except for the company that each particular lion was shot with. Its NOT public info in other words, not to my knowledge its not. What a silly assumption, but not surprising.

The only one perpetuating the picking of the scab as you put it, is you! I just thought it would be helpful/fun/interesting/informative to see the actual results after all the estimates that were put in by folks in the original thread - and to provide an additional learning tool, etc. Then like usual, you're off again on the whining trail about this, that, and the other - all of which have absolutely nothing to do with my OP!!!!! I never said a word about any of your continued complaints with the lion aging thing that you once again are whining about above - but of course that didn't stop you from creating some big issue that was not any part of what I was asking/hoping for. Like you, I have long been a supporter of MS, and have made no bones about saying so either. The only single thing you have ever done regarding this whole lion aging issue - is WHINE about it, period! Some like me may not have done everything to your satisfaction, but my friend - we at least tried to do something. A something that is now obvious that a whole lot of folks - especially those in the industry and scientific community agree with. Which is a whole lot better than doing nothing, and then whining about what has been done.

Good lord man, does everything with you have to be an argument, or can it ever just be ok to ask a question, or try to get some info I thought might be helpful to myself/others? Or should I PM you first, and ask your permission to pose my question???

Funny thing though, dozens and dozens of hunting organizations, major African outfitters, scientists, and PH's all across Africa have helped to co-author, refine and completely endorse the "Huntable Lion Definition", the Niassa Carnivore project (lion points system) and needed change in lion hunting practices - yet, we should all listen to you and a few others and go with the its voo-doo/BS/irresponsible and no change/action would have been best approach? Ok, I'll go along with the others - but thanks for that.

As normal Steve - this whole thread has already degraded to mud slinging, rather than what I had hoped for/intended it to be, SHOCKER!!!!!

SHAWN - Sir, thanks for the consideration and offer to check with MS. My suggestion, scrap the whole thing. It'll just go from bad to worse, and I certainly would not want to see Mark catching anymore grief than he gets here already - should there be any reason for it?

Aaron,
It was scab that was going to get picked. Regardless, shoot me, the messenger.

It is not an argument to "Call out" bad science.

Science is based in facts, facts that can be proven. Lion aging cannot be proven, you got it wrong, your PH got it wrong. If I am wrong simply pointing out bad science, great, I'm wrong.

You think you can bully your way throughout this simply because you are Aaron Neilson?. YOUR SCIENCE IS NOT ACCURATE. If It was, how could I argue this?

I never changed tone, simply pointing out facts. You are the one who's MO is to shout down. I'll debate you all night like gentleman.

Perusing this thread shows me, most posters are asking questions about it being subjective or objective. Those terms don't fly in labs.

I figured you had the aging results in hand and was asking Shawn to post them, giving him the option, If I am wrong my bad.

Why you need to demonized and call me a whiner, I don't get. There are folks calling you both anti's and the like. That would be whining. I don't agree with how this all happened, that's a disagreement. In your world, a whiner.

Who decided to pick up his marbles and call it a day?

Steve

Aaron, where do you get the age data?

My PH still has heard nothing from Tanz about the one I shot in '11, although they did export it when only 6 year olds were supposed to go out, so I assume it was 6 by their criteria.

Lots of PH's I talked with have never received any feedback from Tanz regarding the lion they shot.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Aaron, where do you get the age data?

My PH still has heard nothing from Tanz about the one I shot in '11, although they did export it when only 6 year olds were supposed to go out, so I assume it was 6 by their criteria.

Lots of PH's I talked with have never received any feedback from Tanz regarding the lion they shot.

From what I know of the 2011 lion quota taken, all were exported yet none apparently met the required 6 year rule.

Your PH may pretend to not being privy to this information but the outfitter through whom the hunt was conducted would and I have reservations that he would not disclose these results to his PHs.

Aaron,

Your Lion may very well be six especially if there is room for error. Indeed and if my memory serves me correctly this Lion was sought by a PH the year before? Thus he was considered a mature trophy male.

I congratulate Lane and you in your presentation of awareness and the distinction of what is considered a mature male, a worthy trophy.

However unless your Lion has been monitored for the last few years we would be unsure whether he was once a pride male or was seeking that position? It is my observation in Zambia that there are a large number of nomads such as these and I would surmise that most do not become pride males and as loners they often form a coalition when hunting. If these Lions can be identified as mature and deemed at least 5 then they should be targeted.

To answer your question and looking at some of Mark's Lions illustrated in the link I would 'guess' a couple would be 5 and the rest 5 plus. When I say 5 plus I cannot differentiate between 6 and 10. Nor do I need to.

Agreed it would be interesting for the layman to know the age of all Lions posted here and build this portfolio as a guide to ageing the Lion.

As some have pointed out ultimately it does fall under PH responsibility and this can be difficult to control.

Maybe it is a silly question, but is it my nerves or Tanzanian lions seem to look older than they really are? I remember some time ago someone posted a picture of a gorgeous big maned and bodied Tanz lion which had been shot and actually aged at 4-5! Just asking
Anyway Aaron that lion is a beautiful specimen and I don't believe any ph would have doubted on taking him, I do admire the fact you showed the facts that he was not as old as you believed.

Hi Aaron

Great to see another thread on aging lions, especially good at the start of the season so we can all sharpen up on what to look for,

I just got back the aging of the lion we hunted in the Timbavati in the 2013 season; he was aged at between 5 and 7 years old.

I judged him at between 7/8 in the field just based on the fact that I have seen him for the last 3 years as a mature lion.

Of all the lions I have hunted myself, not guided only 2 were defiantly without a doubt over 6 years old. I say this just because there was so much wear in their teeth that this was obvious. The one was a Mozambique lion and the other a Namibian monster,

We are again doing a large study on our lion population in the Timbavati, we have been worried about the possibility of inbreeding because of the high lion population in the reserve, we darted 11 lions at the end of 2013 and did DNA testing, only 3 were related,

This was good news that shows our population is always changing and new blood from Kruger and surrounding reserves was always entering the population.

Did this lion you hunt have much elbow hair? I can’t see from the photo?

JK

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Aaron, where do you get the age data?

My PH still has heard nothing from Tanz about the one I shot in '11, although they did export it when only 6 year olds were supposed to go out, so I assume it was 6 by their criteria.

Lots of PH's I talked with have never received any feedback from Tanz regarding the lion they shot.

From what I know of the 2011 lion quota taken, all were exported yet none apparently met the required 6 year rule.

Your PH may pretend to not being privy to this information but the outfitter through whom the hunt was conducted would and I have reservations that he would not disclose these results to his PHs.

Fujo,
You are absolutely correct. Except I think there were less than 10 actual 6 year olds...not 0...but close.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Aaron,

What were the 5 year old distinctions?

Jeff

The main one, and I am not sure it can been seen in these pics is the overall width/breadth of the skull/head. You can see it pretty good on the video of my shooting the lion. When Paula really showed it to me, it was actually kinda obvious - but I overlooked it at the time apparently?

So a field measurment based on Roland Wards 24 inches would be ideal if you could make the anatomic distintion on the hoof so to speak.

Jeff

Jeff - Do you mean the total skull measurement of 24"???

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Aaron, where do you get the age data?

My PH still has heard nothing from Tanz about the one I shot in '11, although they did export it when only 6 year olds were supposed to go out, so I assume it was 6 by their criteria.

Lots of PH's I talked with have never received any feedback from Tanz regarding the lion they shot.

DMS - gave me the info. But I am not sure about 2011?

quote:

Originally posted by ManuelM:
Maybe it is a silly question, but is it my nerves or Tanzanian lions seem to look older than they really are? I remember some time ago someone posted a picture of a gorgeous big maned and bodied Tanz lion which had been shot and actually aged at 4-5! Just asking
Anyway Aaron that lion is a beautiful specimen and I don't believe any ph would have doubted on taking him, I do admire the fact you showed the facts that he was not as old as you believed.

Man, I am just trying to learn as much as I can. I am not beyond a mistake - I am only human. Thanks man!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Aaron,

What were the 5 year old distinctions?

Jeff

The main one, and I am not sure it can been seen in these pics is the overall width/breadth of the skull/head. You can see it pretty good on the video of my shooting the lion. When Paula really showed it to me, it was actually kinda obvious - but I overlooked it at the time apparently?

So a field measurment based on Roland Wards 24 inches would be ideal if you could make the anatomic distintion on the hoof so to speak.

Jeff

Jeff - Do you mean the total skull measurement of 24"???

Yes.

That is obviously the minimum for R and W.

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Hi Aaron

Great to see another thread on aging lions, especially good at the start of the season so we can all sharpen up on what to look for,

I just got back the aging of the lion we hunted in the Timbavati in the 2013 season; he was aged at between 5 and 7 years old.

I judged him at between 7/8 in the field just based on the fact that I have seen him for the last 3 years as a mature lion.

Of all the lions I have hunted myself, not guided only 2 were defiantly without a doubt over 6 years old. I say this just because there was so much wear in their teeth that this was obvious. The one was a Mozambique lion and the other a Namibian monster,

We are again doing a large study on our lion population in the Timbavati, we have been worried about the possibility of inbreeding because of the high lion population in the reserve, we darted 11 lions at the end of 2013 and did DNA testing, only 3 were related,

This was good news that shows our population is always changing and new blood from Kruger and surrounding reserves was always entering the population.

Did this lion you hunt have much elbow hair? I can’t see from the photo?

JK

Yes, lots of elbow hair. Look for the post of my video from Todd Williams - you can clearly see it there.

Look forward to seeing more of your info.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Aaron,

What were the 5 year old distinctions?

Jeff

The main one, and I am not sure it can been seen in these pics is the overall width/breadth of the skull/head. You can see it pretty good on the video of my shooting the lion. When Paula really showed it to me, it was actually kinda obvious - but I overlooked it at the time apparently?

So a field measurment based on Roland Wards 24 inches would be ideal if you could make the anatomic distintion on the hoof so to speak.

Jeff

Jeff - Do you mean the total skull measurement of 24"???

Yes.

That is obviously the minimum for R and W.

Jeff - IMO I would be surprised to see a fully mature/older lion with a skull as small as 24". I've never measured any of my lions or lions I have been a part of taking (20 plus) that were anything less than 25". With my biggest being 26 3/4", which is very big.

Again, that's just my opinion - but I would be shocked if I was off by much on this one?

I dont know if I missed it but the other lion the girl (Knowlton)took whats was his age ?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Aaron,

What were the 5 year old distinctions?

Jeff

The main one, and I am not sure it can been seen in these pics is the overall width/breadth of the skull/head. You can see it pretty good on the video of my shooting the lion. When Paula really showed it to me, it was actually kinda obvious - but I overlooked it at the time apparently?

So a field measurment based on Roland Wards 24 inches would be ideal if you could make the anatomic distintion on the hoof so to speak.

Jeff

Jeff - Do you mean the total skull measurement of 24"???

Yes.

That is obviously the minimum for R and W.

Jeff - IMO I would be surprised to see a fully mature/older lion with a skull as small as 24". I've never measured any of my lions or lions I have been a part of taking (20 plus) that were anything less than 25". With my biggest being 26 3/4", which is very big.

Again, that's just my opinion - but I would be shocked if I was off by much on this one?

Jeff - Correction! I meant smaller than 24" would surprise me, and all that I have measured have been over 24", usually 24.5" or bigger.

quote:

From what I know of the 2011 lion quota taken, all were exported yet none apparently met the required 6 year rule.

Lane:

Note the word "apparently" - this because those involved in the evaluation would not confirm their ages as being 6 and therefore may have given them the benefit of the doubt.

Aaron I am a hunter from California and have gone on some of the Anti Hunting FB sites. I have tried to converse logically with them in regards to their slamming of Melissa Bachman and Corey Knowlton. Man oh man these people are out there! Nothing but vile and vulgar comments back at me for hunting and showing my boys how to use archery equipment, blah blah blah. On the United Against Trophy Hunting website they are now going after you Aaron. If you have not checked it out you should. These folks are insane and the majority are from the UK and Europe. Some Americans but the majority are from the other side of the world.

Take care. Yours in Hunting,
Paul

Looked at the anti-hunting website.

Aaron is definitely the poster child.

Good news is I have a lot more FB friends than they do and I am no one.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Paul C:
Aaron I am a hunter from California and have gone on some of the Anti Hunting FB sites. I have tried to converse logically with them in regards to their slamming of Melissa Bachman and Corey Knowlton. Man oh man these people are out there! Nothing but vile and vulgar comments back at me for hunting and showing my boys how to use archery equipment, blah blah blah. On the United Against Trophy Hunting website they are now going after you Aaron. If you have not checked it out you should. These folks are insane and the majority are from the UK and Europe. Some Americans but the majority are from the other side of the world.

Take care. Yours in Hunting,
Paul

Well heck, not long ago I was the poster child for "Stop Trophy Hunting Now". Apparently I am making the rounds

Steve and Hunting the Box,

I really don't understand the position you guys are taking on this issue. Steve, you and I have discussed this before and as always, we have been able to do so while maintaining respect for each other's opinion. That will apply to my comments here as well.

I understand guys were put off by Aaron's manner of addressing the VERY young lion taken in Zambia a few years back, and if I'm not mistaken, Aaron apologized for the manner in which he addressed that hunt, but held firm to his conviction that the taking of such a young lion was wrong. I know Aaron and what I get from him is that he really does care about the lion and what is best for the species going forward. Does he have all the answers? No, and he readily admits that but what continues to be lost in this entire discussion, again and again, and Steve I've pointed this out in our previous debates on the issue, is that none of this has taken place in a vacuum. Please remember, the guidelines Aaron, Lane, and the leading lion scientists worked toward getting the hunting community on board with were developed in the shadow of the USFWS uplisting the African Lion to ENDANGERED STATUS which would END LION HUNTING FOR U.S. CITIZENS! Why that little tidbit repeatedly gets lost is beyond me.

Something had to be addressed; some plan other than the status quo to show hunters as being the true conservationists that we are. HTB, your statements here in this thread are completely incorrect regarding Aaron's advocation for criminal penalties for shooting a less than 6 year old lion. I remember his position as always stating that the 5/6 year olds are tough to get right and that the Niassa model is far superior to the previous Tanzania model of strictly penalizing anything under 6 years of age without mitigation. I'm sorry but your statements on this matter are not accurate. With a bit of effort, I'm 100% positive I can link to numerous statements from Aaron stating as much and I'd be very surprised if you can link to a single statement whereby Aaron advocated the strict penalty you claim in shooting a 5 year old cat.

I know whitetail deer and lions are not the same program, but as I've stated before, 12 to 15 years ago some of us on our leases here in Texas began an effort to improve the bucks we were taking off our properties. The best way to do this was to let the young ones walk. I can remember the condescending and mocking commentary like it was yesterday ... "Do you get to check the deer's birth certificate", and such; much in the same manner lion aging has been mocked here. But the facts are that it's relatively easy to distinguish between a 2.5, 4.5, or 6.5 year old deer, at least for anyone willing to take a little time to learn the tell tale signs. The result has been much better trophies, at least from the properties where guys put in the effort. Is it 100%? No, and far from it, but it has improved trophy quality without a doubt. I do think there are lessons to be learned and applied to the lion aging process.

I believe Aaron posted this thread in an honest attempt to educate and learn in the spirit of all of us benefiting. At least that's the way I took it and as to whether or not it falls completely upon the PH to make the judgement call in the end, I still want to be in the field as a hunter, not just a shooter simply pulling the trigger when the PH says "That one". In fact, that's largely how I ended up taking that very small brown bear on my first trip to Russia ... relying completely on the guide to make the decision.

I'll likely not hunt lion again. Never say never, but probably not. Regardless, I'm glad I took the time to learn a bit on the subject prior to going afield after Shumba in 2012 as we had a choice and I think we made the right decision. Regardless, remember the overriding concern here is WHAT the USFWS is going to rule regarding the lion's status. If we as hunters sit on the sidelines throwing peanuts at the guys attempting to steer the decision in a favorable direction instead of supporting them, participating in the process, and showing the hunting "fence sitters" of the world that we really do care about the animals' welfare, we will get what we deserve.

Is the LCTF model without flaw? Of course not as there are too many variables to account for in getting it right 100% of the time but I think we can improve over just shooting any cat with a nut sack that arrives on bait. Did the Tanzania model overstep what is reasonable originally? You bet it did, but further work on the matter appears to be refining the model into something that does work, similar to the Niassa model. Will these efforts ultimately stave off a USFWS uplisting to Endangered? Only time will tell, but it is absolutely obvious that the antis such as HSUS, Born Free, etc. finally had the horsepower and momentum on their side and without an effort to address the issue by hunters, the uplisting was going to happen. All of this said, and I may be wrong on this one and will stand corrected if shown my error, but I don't recall seeing an alternative plan being brought forth to prevent the uplisting of the lion? What other, better or worse, preventative measure was put forth to prevent the uplisting of the lion to Endangered? Those who know me know I'm an SCI supporter, but their approach was to "fight it in court after the uplisting occurred"? How is that a plan that serves our interests, not to mention what's best for the species itself?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul C:
Aaron I am a hunter from California and have gone on some of the Anti Hunting FB sites. I have tried to converse logically with them in regards to their slamming of Melissa Bachman and Corey Knowlton. Man oh man these people are out there! Nothing but vile and vulgar comments back at me for hunting and showing my boys how to use archery equipment, blah blah blah. On the United Against Trophy Hunting website they are now going after you Aaron. If you have not checked it out you should. These folks are insane and the majority are from the UK and Europe. Some Americans but the majority are from the other side of the world.

Take care. Yours in Hunting,
Paul

Well heck, not long ago I was the poster child for "Stop Trophy Hunting Now". Apparently I am making the rounds

Damn Aaron. I didn't know you were so famous. Can I get your autograph?

Obviously, I am just teasing you. On a serious note, I do think we need to quit ignoring these whack jobs. Their numbers and influence are growing.

I know this has nothing to do with the Tanz lions but these Antis are so out there. I truly believe it has to do with lack of animal protein in the diet. One even sent me a private PM and said he knew where I lived and was gonna come knocking on my door to settle things. I told him you realize that I am a hunter right and that I have a small fortune in firearms so please come on over and I will have 911 on hold for you. What jackasses.

I will continue to do my best to educate them but I love slamming them too.

Quote from my Dad: "you only get to keep what you are tough enough to hold on to."

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Aaron,

What were the 5 year old distinctions?

Jeff

The main one, and I am not sure it can been seen in these pics is the overall width/breadth of the skull/head. You can see it pretty good on the video of my shooting the lion. When Paula really showed it to me, it was actually kinda obvious - but I overlooked it at the time apparently?

So a field measurment based on Roland Wards 24 inches would be ideal if you could make the anatomic distintion on the hoof so to speak.

Jeff

Jeff - Do you mean the total skull measurement of 24"???

Yes.

That is obviously the minimum for R and W.

Jeff - IMO I would be surprised to see a fully mature/older lion with a skull as small as 24". I've never measured any of my lions or lions I have been a part of taking (20 plus) that were anything less than 25". With my biggest being 26 3/4", which is very big.

Again, that's just my opinion - but I would be shocked if I was off by much on this one?

Jeff - Correction! I meant smaller than 24" would surprise me, and all that I have measured have been over 24", usually 24.5" or bigger.[/QUOTE


With this in mind, has anyone worked out a ratio of orbit/nose length as an indicator of skull length?

Inter ear width?

Probably hard to field judge those differences.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Aaron,

What were the 5 year old distinctions?

Jeff

The main one, and I am not sure it can been seen in these pics is the overall width/breadth of the skull/head. You can see it pretty good on the video of my shooting the lion. When Paula really showed it to me, it was actually kinda obvious - but I overlooked it at the time apparently?

So a field measurment based on Roland Wards 24 inches would be ideal if you could make the anatomic distintion on the hoof so to speak.

Jeff

Jeff - Do you mean the total skull measurement of 24"???

Yes.

That is obviously the minimum for R and W.

Jeff - IMO I would be surprised to see a fully mature/older lion with a skull as small as 24". I've never measured any of my lions or lions I have been a part of taking (20 plus) that were anything less than 25". With my biggest being 26 3/4", which is very big.

Again, that's just my opinion - but I would be shocked if I was off by much on this one?

Jeff - Correction! I meant smaller than 24" would surprise me, and all that I have measured have been over 24", usually 24.5" or bigger.[/QUOTE


With this in mind, has anyone worked out a ratio of orbit/nose length as an indicator of skull length?

Inter ear width?

Probably hard to field judge those differences.

Jeff

Jeff - Interesting question, and I am not sure of the answer. But two points I would make.

1. As you indicate, that would be difficult to field judge. But frankly, the appearance of what Dr. White was pointing out to me - was not that un-obvious once I recognized what she was getting at.

2. IMO, this would have to be regional - if it was usable at all. For example, almost all of the lions I have measured in Zambia/TZ had skulls in the 24.5 - 25 range. But as I moved further south, Zim/Southern Moz, even Bots, etc, the skulls were definitely on average - bigger. Usually 25.5" or better. With my biggest being 26.75" that I took right on the border of Hwange in 2002.

IMO its a lot like mane development - lions "in general" cannot be age estimated by using only that lion aging guide developed by Dr. Packer/Dr. Whitman a few years back, where ALL of the lions they used to create age estimates were all from the Serengeti! A place where lions grow manes like a chiapet on steroids!!! Mane development really needs to be used on a regional basis, and then only as a part of the age estimate. Just look at all the lions we have seen over the years - taken by hunters. Do any of their manes really look exactly alike, rarely or never - that I have seen anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Aaron,

What were the 5 year old distinctions?

Jeff

The main one, and I am not sure it can been seen in these pics is the overall width/breadth of the skull/head. You can see it pretty good on the video of my shooting the lion. When Paula really showed it to me, it was actually kinda obvious - but I overlooked it at the time apparently?

So a field measurment based on Roland Wards 24 inches would be ideal if you could make the anatomic distintion on the hoof so to speak.

Jeff

Jeff - Do you mean the total skull measurement of 24"???

Yes.

That is obviously the minimum for R and W.

Jeff - IMO I would be surprised to see a fully mature/older lion with a skull as small as 24". I've never measured any of my lions or lions I have been a part of taking (20 plus) that were anything less than 25". With my biggest being 26 3/4", which is very big.

Again, that's just my opinion - but I would be shocked if I was off by much on this one?

Jeff - Correction! I meant smaller than 24" would surprise me, and all that I have measured have been over 24", usually 24.5" or bigger.[/QUOTE


With this in mind, has anyone worked out a ratio of orbit/nose length as an indicator of skull length?

Inter ear width?

Probably hard to field judge those differences.

Jeff

Jeff - Interesting question, and I am not sure of the answer. But two points I would make.

1. As you indicate, that would be difficult to field judge. But frankly, the appearance of what Dr. White was pointing out to me - was not that un-obvious once I recognized what she was getting at.

2. IMO, this would have to be regional - if it was usable at all. For example, almost all of the lions I have measured in Zambia/TZ had skulls in the 24.5 - 25 range. But as I moved further south, Zim/Southern Moz, even Bots, etc, the skulls were definitely on average - bigger. Usually 25.5" or better. With my biggest being 26.75" that I took right on the border of Hwange in 2002.

IMO its a lot like mane development - lions "in general" cannot be age estimated by using only that lion aging guide developed by Dr. Packer/Dr. Whitman a few years back, where ALL of the lions they used to create age estimates were all from the Serengeti! A place where lions grow manes like a chiapet on steroids!!! Mane development really needs to be used on a regional basis, and then only as a part of the age estimate. Just look at all the lions we have seen over the years - taken by hunters. Do any of their manes really look exactly alike, rarely or never - that I have seen anyway.

A video or power point demonstration would be HUGE.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Aaron,

What were the 5 year old distinctions?

Jeff

The main one, and I am not sure it can been seen in these pics is the overall width/breadth of the skull/head. You can see it pretty good on the video of my shooting the lion. When Paula really showed it to me, it was actually kinda obvious - but I overlooked it at the time apparently?

So a field measurment based on Roland Wards 24 inches would be ideal if you could make the anatomic distintion on the hoof so to speak.

Jeff

Jeff - Do you mean the total skull measurement of 24"???

Yes.

That is obviously the minimum for R and W.

Jeff - IMO I would be surprised to see a fully mature/older lion with a skull as small as 24". I've never measured any of my lions or lions I have been a part of taking (20 plus) that were anything less than 25". With my biggest being 26 3/4", which is very big.

Again, that's just my opinion - but I would be shocked if I was off by much on this one?

Jeff - Correction! I meant smaller than 24" would surprise me, and all that I have measured have been over 24", usually 24.5" or bigger.[/QUOTE


With this in mind, has anyone worked out a ratio of orbit/nose length as an indicator of skull length?

Inter ear width?

Probably hard to field judge those differences.

Jeff

Jeff - Interesting question, and I am not sure of the answer. But two points I would make.

1. As you indicate, that would be difficult to field judge. But frankly, the appearance of what Dr. White was pointing out to me - was not that un-obvious once I recognized what she was getting at.

2. IMO, this would have to be regional - if it was usable at all. For example, almost all of the lions I have measured in Zambia/TZ had skulls in the 24.5 - 25 range. But as I moved further south, Zim/Southern Moz, even Bots, etc, the skulls were definitely on average - bigger. Usually 25.5" or better. With my biggest being 26.75" that I took right on the border of Hwange in 2002.

IMO its a lot like mane development - lions "in general" cannot be age estimated by using only that lion aging guide developed by Dr. Packer/Dr. Whitman a few years back, where ALL of the lions they used to create age estimates were all from the Serengeti! A place where lions grow manes like a chiapet on steroids!!! Mane development really needs to be used on a regional basis, and then only as a part of the age estimate. Just look at all the lions we have seen over the years - taken by hunters. Do any of their manes really look exactly alike, rarely or never - that I have seen anyway.

A video or power point demonstration would be HUGE.

Jeff

Jeff - Slow down man, now you're getting carried away bro! Imagine all the work that would take? When would one have time to go lion hunting again??

Never the less - let me think about this for awhile, and see what I can come up with. It of course would be to the best of my ability, and biased a bit - based on my opinions/experiences. See what I get for opening my mouth?