quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Maybe Shawn could repost the photos here? Maybe send him a PM?

I would have called you Lion 6 years. Is there is a six month discrepancy?

looks like a heart shot? Or just over?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
You know Aaron, I was all for the 6 year rule. I still am, but I am hearing stories of abuse etc. I saw images from one area of 20 different lions on film on ONE hunt. None were acceptable. I would have most of them. I heard of one permit sold 5 times. There is no method for the average Joe like myself to call bullshit in these scenarios.

How do we move beyond these problems?

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Hi Aaron,
Nice stuff there. My only question is, why pick this scab?

You of all people know how inflammatory this issue is. Now, by your own statement, the field aging of lions is voodoo at best.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Hi Aaron,
Nice stuff there. My only question is, why pick this scab?

You of all people know how inflammatory this issue is. Now, by your own statement, the field aging of lions is voodoo at best.

Steve

Steve, are you kidding me?? Picking a scab, what are you talking about?

I simply thought it would be interesting/helpful and frankly pretty cool, to see a wild lion that was shot under real life field conditions, of which - many posters gave age estimates of the lions MS shot as you can see in the link, and then to see what the real/actual age came back as based on science? Just as I did with my very own lion!!! I too was inaccurate, according the science. I'm not butt-hurt over it, I'm using it to LEARN more about the potential pitfalls in the field. So I can hopefully avoid the same mistake in the future.

So now I'm picking a scab by trying to be more informed/accurate in the field? You gotta lighten up bro!

Never did I say field aging of lions is "voodoo at best", where did that come from? I said, its difficult to do - and it is. I have always said that once a lion is 4+, they can all certainly be deceiving in one way or another.

After spending time with Dr. Paula White at DSC a few weeks ago, and looking at all the pics of my lion shown above, plus the video footage. She pointed out a couple of specific characteristics about my lion that she thought clearly indicated he was in fact, 5 yrs old. After listening/learning from her, I too saw what she was pointing out, that I did not see before. I took it as a learning lesson.

So Steve, if you choose to look at it as I'm being inflammatory - so be it? I choose to recognize that I am not perfect, not without fault, and I prefer to recognize and learn from my mistakes - rather than getting my feelings hurt if/when someone points them out to me. But that's just me of course. The lions posted/taken by MS last year, and their actual ages could be helpful to us all - or at least I think so. Maybe you disagree, sorry for that.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

Yes...it does require learning...it will always be somewhat subjective...albeit with enough parameters it becomes MORE objective...but for those who take the time...very possible.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

Yes...it does require learning...it will always be somewhat subjective...albeit with enough parameters it becomes MORE objective...but for those who take the time...very possible.

'somewhat subjective'... 'more objective'... That's a science joke, right?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Aaron,

What were the 5 year old distinctions?

Jeff

quote:

The lions posted/taken by MS last year, and their actual ages could be helpful to us all - or at least I think so.

quote:

After spending time with Dr. Paula White at DSC a few weeks ago, and looking at all the pics of my lion shown above, plus the video footage. She pointed out a couple of specific characteristics about my lion that she thought clearly indicated he was in fact, 5 yrs old. After listening/learning from her, I too saw what she was pointing out, that I did not see before. I took it as a learning lesson.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
You know Aaron, I was all for the 6 year rule. I still am, but I am hearing stories of abuse etc. I saw images from one area of 20 different lions on film on ONE hunt. None were acceptable. I would have most of them. I heard of one permit sold 5 times. There is no method for the average Joe like myself to call bullshit in these scenarios.

How do we move beyond these problems?

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Shawn - Below is a link you posted last year with multiple Lions taken by MS in Tanzania, in 2013. First off, I THINK THEY ARE ALL FABULOUS LIONS - I AM NOT BASHING ANY OF THEM, OR MS EITHER. I am simply asking for the age results from each lion, as all results have now been given for each lion taken in 2012/2013. Could you get the results, and post those for all of us to see?

IMO, this would be very helpful info for all of us - as it pertains to field judging/aging wild lions. Especially considering that the pics you posted are GOOD photos, and show pretty good detail of each lion. See link below.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...391075191#1391075191

To kick this off, and to show my point - pictured below is the beautiful lion I took in the Lukwati Game Reserve in 2012. I was given the age results of this lion a couple months ago, and much to my surprise - he was aged at 5 yrs old! Frankly, Chris and I were certain he was 6+ at the time of our hunt? According to scientific aging, he's not 6 - and its another lesson learned for me. And another lesson that shows us all, just how difficult it can be to age a lion on the paw. Obviously evident, as TZ recently changed their age limit rules to a more fair (IMO) points type system.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:

quote:

After spending time with Dr. Paula White at DSC a few weeks ago, and looking at all the pics of my lion shown above, plus the video footage. She pointed out a couple of specific characteristics about my lion that she thought clearly indicated he was in fact, 5 yrs old. After listening/learning from her, I too saw what she was pointing out, that I did not see before. I took it as a learning lesson.

Aaron, I think this illustrates why there should never have been support from the hunting fraternity for a system that is completely flawed and allows a researcher to turn honest hunters into criminals because they dont like the way a lion looks.

In my opinion unless they are going to track individual animals and put the funds generated from lion hunts into field teams to monitor lions there is no benefit to be drawn from supporting the current status quo.

In short, all we have done is put the smoking gun into the hands of the anti hunters and given them one more tool to use against us.
Perhaps you can direct your energies towards developing sound lion conservation models rather than supporting half mast research efforts that that hold no water.

I dont mean to be harsh with you, but you did champion this cause and bash the hell out of guys who made exactly the same mistake you have and ended up shooting an "illegal lion".
If nothing else some apologies are in order.

quote:

that were obviously 2-3 year olds.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:

quote:

that were obviously 2-3 year olds.

Prove it Lane. Fact of the matter is you cannot unless you have someone monitoring a pride from the day the cub is born.

If "Mr Lion Expert" cant pick the right cat then how can you expect average joe to do it.
I believe the two of you even wanted to make it a Lacey Act violation in which your fellow citizens would then be liable to be tried as criminals.

The bottom line is, you were wrong.

quote:

Sir...you are 100% incorrect. And a 2-3 year cat is easily proven and easily distinguish...at least by those who take the time to learn.

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:

quote:

Sir...you are 100% incorrect. And a 2-3 year cat is easily proven and easily distinguish...at least by those who take the time to learn.

Which is your opinion

Just like an anti hunter has the opinion that all hunting is bad.

The fact of the matter is that you made an effort to go after hunters based on your beliefs at the time. You aligned your self with the anti hunters and as far as I am concerned you owe a lot of people an apology as here today you have shown that even "someone who chose to learn" cannot distinguish a 5 from a 6 in hunting conditions and better yet so far 90% of the PH's that I know cant even begin to use the system as it simply does not work.

You backed the wrong horse Lane and you have done far more damage to hunters and the future of hunting than any anti hunting effort in the last 10 years.

I wont comment further, but you have an opportunity to start making right. Use it rather than trying to flog the horse back to life.
I am sure there is a working model out there somewhere, but this isnt it.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Jeff,

Having the worlds leading scientists go on record and state that there is a class of lion that can be harvested with out harming ANY population...IS a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Jeff,

Having the worlds leading scientists go on record and state that there is a class of lion that can be harvested with out harming ANY population...IS a good thing.

Lane,
While I agree some kind of delta needs to be agreed upon, it certainly cannot be called science. If aging a lion at 6 means "He's either 5 or maaaybe as old as seven" that isn't science. Throwing chicken bones and reading tea leaves are as accurate as some guesses are.

If Aaron and the PH he's hunting with, whom together have a huge amount of Lion experience get it wrong, how can anyone be expected to follow some arbitrary definition?

I think all this has accomplished is, the average guy who can afford to give Lion hunting just one effort, may decide it's just to complex to risk 60K. For god sakes, it's like reading tax code.

As far as Aaron requesting the aging from Shawn and MS, My bet is he already has the info.

No need to tell me I just don't want to educate myself about this, I don't. Not about this, I pay PH's to decide that shit for me. Besides, If the PH says "No Joy", I don't shoot. Should I also get a GPS and learn the roads in the GMA prior to my arrival?

At some point international sport hunting is just a vacation. If I risk breaking laws or even just some vague unenforceable definition, I and many other will pass.

The loser will be Africa's wildlife and the Lions.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Jeff,

Having the worlds leading scientists go on record and state that there is a class of lion that can be harvested with out harming ANY population...IS a good thing.

Lane,
While I agree some kind of delta needs to be agreed upon, it certainly cannot be called science. If aging a lion at 6 means "He's either 5 or maaaybe as old as seven" that isn't science. Throwing chicken bones and reading tea leaves are as accurate as some guesses are.

If Aaron and the PH he's hunting with, whom together have a huge amount of Lion experience get it wrong, how can anyone be expected to follow some arbitrary definition?

I think all this has accomplished is, the average guy who can afford to give Lion hunting just one effort, may decide it's just to complex to risk 60K. For god sakes, it's like reading tax code.

As far as Aaron requesting the aging from Shawn and MS, My bet is he already has the info.

No need to tell me I just don't want to educate myself about this, I don't. Not about this, I pay PH's to decide that shit for me. Besides, If the PH says "No Joy", I don't shoot. Should I also get a GPS and learn the roads in the GMA prior to my arrival?

At some point international sport hunting is just a vacation. If I risk breaking laws or even just some vague unenforceable definition, I and many other will pass.

The loser will be Africa's wildlife and the Lions.

Steve

Steve,
If Obama's cronies list the lion as endagered and make it illegal...the lion and all wildlife looses too.

Under the new rules that Aaron & I lobbied for...the lion is acceptable.

Both Aaron and I always said the 5-6 distinction is difficult.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Jeff,

Having the worlds leading scientists go on record and state that there is a class of lion that can be harvested with out harming ANY population...IS a good thing.

Lane,
While I agree some kind of delta needs to be agreed upon, it certainly cannot be called science. If aging a lion at 6 means "He's either 5 or maaaybe as old as seven" that isn't science. Throwing chicken bones and reading tea leaves are as accurate as some guesses are.

If Aaron and the PH he's hunting with, whom together have a huge amount of Lion experience get it wrong, how can anyone be expected to follow some arbitrary definition?

I think all this has accomplished is, the average guy who can afford to give Lion hunting just one effort, may decide it's just to complex to risk 60K. For god sakes, it's like reading tax code.

As far as Aaron requesting the aging from Shawn and MS, My bet is he already has the info.

No need to tell me I just don't want to educate myself about this, I don't. Not about this, I pay PH's to decide that shit for me. Besides, If the PH says "No Joy", I don't shoot. Should I also get a GPS and learn the roads in the GMA prior to my arrival?

At some point international sport hunting is just a vacation. If I risk breaking laws or even just some vague unenforceable definition, I and many other will pass.

The loser will be Africa's wildlife and the Lions.

Steve

Steve,
If Obama's cronies list the lion as endagered and make it illegal...the lion and all wildlife looses too.

Under the new rules that Aaron & I lobbied for...the lion is acceptable.

Both Aaron and I always said the 5-6 distinction is difficult.

Which is exactly why I called it voodoo in the first place.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Jeff,

Having the worlds leading scientists go on record and state that there is a class of lion that can be harvested with out harming ANY population...IS a good thing.

Lane,
While I agree some kind of delta needs to be agreed upon, it certainly cannot be called science. If aging a lion at 6 means "He's either 5 or maaaybe as old as seven" that isn't science. Throwing chicken bones and reading tea leaves are as accurate as some guesses are.

If Aaron and the PH he's hunting with, whom together have a huge amount of Lion experience get it wrong, how can anyone be expected to follow some arbitrary definition?

I think all this has accomplished is, the average guy who can afford to give Lion hunting just one effort, may decide it's just to complex to risk 60K. For god sakes, it's like reading tax code.

As far as Aaron requesting the aging from Shawn and MS, My bet is he already has the info.

No need to tell me I just don't want to educate myself about this, I don't. Not about this, I pay PH's to decide that shit for me. Besides, If the PH says "No Joy", I don't shoot. Should I also get a GPS and learn the roads in the GMA prior to my arrival?

At some point international sport hunting is just a vacation. If I risk breaking laws or even just some vague unenforceable definition, I and many other will pass.

The loser will be Africa's wildlife and the Lions.

Steve

Steve,
If Obama's cronies list the lion as endagered and make it illegal...the lion and all wildlife looses too.

Under the new rules that Aaron & I lobbied for...the lion is acceptable.

Both Aaron and I always said the 5-6 distinction is difficult.

Which is exactly why I called it voodoo in the first place.

Steve

Being able to lump lion into categories of <5, 5-6, >6 may be voo-doo to you...but I call it pretty darn good science. Life and death decisions are made every day with less exact science.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Jeff,

Having the worlds leading scientists go on record and state that there is a class of lion that can be harvested with out harming ANY population...IS a good thing.

Lane,
While I agree some kind of delta needs to be agreed upon, it certainly cannot be called science. If aging a lion at 6 means "He's either 5 or maaaybe as old as seven" that isn't science. Throwing chicken bones and reading tea leaves are as accurate as some guesses are.

If Aaron and the PH he's hunting with, whom together have a huge amount of Lion experience get it wrong, how can anyone be expected to follow some arbitrary definition?

I think all this has accomplished is, the average guy who can afford to give Lion hunting just one effort, may decide it's just to complex to risk 60K. For god sakes, it's like reading tax code.

As far as Aaron requesting the aging from Shawn and MS, My bet is he already has the info.

No need to tell me I just don't want to educate myself about this, I don't. Not about this, I pay PH's to decide that shit for me. Besides, If the PH says "No Joy", I don't shoot. Should I also get a GPS and learn the roads in the GMA prior to my arrival?

At some point international sport hunting is just a vacation. If I risk breaking laws or even just some vague unenforceable definition, I and many other will pass.

The loser will be Africa's wildlife and the Lions.

Steve

Steve,
If Obama's cronies list the lion as endagered and make it illegal...the lion and all wildlife looses too.

Under the new rules that Aaron & I lobbied for...the lion is acceptable.

Both Aaron and I always said the 5-6 distinction is difficult.

Which is exactly why I called it voodoo in the first place.

Steve

Being able to lump lion into categories of <5, 5-6, >6 may be voo-doo to you...but I call it pretty darn good science. Life and death decisions are made every day with less exact science.

Sorry Lane, a 20% delta isn't science. Not at the high school I attended

quote:

Originally posted by Acer:
So.... Dan Ashe, Director of the USFWS will punt the decision on lions to the DOI Secretary? Learned something today.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Aaron,

What were the 5 year old distinctions?

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Hunting the Box H:

quote:

After spending time with Dr. Paula White at DSC a few weeks ago, and looking at all the pics of my lion shown above, plus the video footage. She pointed out a couple of specific characteristics about my lion that she thought clearly indicated he was in fact, 5 yrs old. After listening/learning from her, I too saw what she was pointing out, that I did not see before. I took it as a learning lesson.

Aaron, I think this illustrates why there should never have been support from the hunting fraternity for a system that is completely flawed and allows a researcher to turn honest hunters into criminals because they dont like the way a lion looks.

In my opinion unless they are going to track individual animals and put the funds generated from lion hunts into field teams to monitor lions there is no benefit to be drawn from supporting the current status quo.

In short, all we have done is put the smoking gun into the hands of the anti hunters and given them one more tool to use against us.
Perhaps you can direct your energies towards developing sound lion conservation models rather than supporting half mast research efforts that that hold no water.

I dont mean to be harsh with you, but you did champion this cause and bash the hell out of guys who made exactly the same mistake you have and ended up shooting an "illegal lion".
If nothing else some apologies are in order.