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I'm not sure that's always the case Marc. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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The PH had a 416 Remington at the time. | |||
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 ..................  .................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Brett writes: "I'm not sure that's always the case Marc." What are you talking about Brett, I'm never wrong! Seriously though, I had already been corrected by 465H&H toward the bottom of page 1. So I responded to his post. Thanks for helping me out on that. I negated to consider the obvious variables that affect penetration, especially on elephant hunting. Still it all speaks to my point that there are just too many factors to say one or two guns is the "Best Elephant Rifle." There are just too many unknowns. Even penetration is not an absolute. | |||
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Now THAT was funny - I don't care who you are ...  NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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+1 Weight to power ratio is hard to beat! "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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.500 NE by David McKay Brown. I am moving back to UK this year and will be booking a fitting. | |||
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No qualification in this post question of who is using the rifle so here goes. Two or three African states equipped their game rangers with them for elephant control work, and it has been stated in a number of quarters that 'she' has probably accounted for more African big game than any other. Hold it a minute, we're not talking about that lowly old 404 Jeffery are we, that hardly gets up enough steam for the bullet to exit the case let alone do any damage if it manages to leave the barrel? I'll leave to the hundreds, probably thousands of elephants and other game that have met their maker since 1905 to answer that question. | |||
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Just because they bought a bunch of cheap 404 magazine rifles doesn't mean crap, in my opinion. They were hardly counting rounds and the scouts had no trophy fees to pay! A lot of poachers in Zim use the 303 British. Good for them but I'd pass on it as the supreme elephant gun.  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Watching many of the videos posted here and some of the stories told, the ammo count is pretty poor today even with the big guns and so called premium ammo. As I said Will, the original question posted did not qualify itself by stating who was doing the shooting, it only asked what rifles are capable of stopping, penetration and shootability. The 375 H&H and 40cals are perfectly capable of stopping and are among the best for penetration and shootability. As history shows these can put down the big stuff effectively. We must remember that the really big bores are no more effective on DG or any game for that matter in the hands of someone who can't place his shot or shots accurately. | |||
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Eagle27: While it is true that accuracy in shot placement is the key ingredient, a misplaced shot from a big bore will be more effective than that of a small bore at the same point of impact. Example  500 v 375) charging buff - miss on the frontal but the shot hits below the jaw. Result: impact will throw it ass over tit! - this won't happen with a 375! | |||
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Finally, someone that is talking some sense. Mike | |||
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That might be a wee bit of exaggeration. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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..........You think?  Still I have to agree that a big bore in the chops, even if off center will more likely turn an ele to give the shooter more time to do it right! However, I see nothing wrong with the old 404 with good bullets, and modern powders, and the 375 H&H is not a .22 lr either! I'm not an elephant hunter so anything I think is based on ele I've seen killed by others! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Its on video - the charging buff ended up facing the way it came - 2 shots from 2 different shooters that preceded mine which missed the intended target and hit the body were totally ineffective (375 & 9.3). Maybe it was a lucky shot  | |||
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The testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing .... First we're talking about elephants! If the buff was running at the shot, and the bullet hit the spine or brain such that the buff died in mid-air, when it fell the head and horns hitting the ground can make it flip so its ass goes over its head. But no 500 or anything else is going flip a stationary buff. Now which it? And let me remind you you are sworn to tell the truth! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will: "Charging" in reference to a buffalo's carriage denotes a pissed off and motivated forward movement. A shot in the spine or back of the head would be impossible. Maybe the "running" shots are the ones you are used to. If the shot was as you say it would send it grovelling head first in the dirt - no doubts about that - for it to flip as you suggest is pretty doubtful though - ass end would be a little heavy and the impact would make it even heavier....and yes...the gravity factor also comes into play But, in a kneeling position with the receiving end lumbering into the path of 570gr. Woodleigh soft traveling at 2150fps at barely 10yds. delivering almost 5850ft/lbs at the base of the throat would not lift it off its front feet and put it on its back? - this one did and the video footage is testimony to the fact.  | |||
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Will: That was in reference to Eagle27s post where he generalized using the term DG. As far as ele is concerned - no it would not flip it ass over tit - it would feel it a lot more than it would a 375 | |||
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If someone is too lazy to carry their own rifle, they probably should rent a golf cart to haul their candy ass around as well. Or if that's too hard, have the p.h. set up an air-conditioned circus tent and let the trackers parade the circus elephants in front of you while you pick out your trophy. | |||
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 So I guess shot placement is not important with a 500. You just flip the buffalo over with any body shot. Then you take your time placing your second shot before they have a chance to come to there senses? There is a whole line of hunting videos in which the client attempts to do that. It never seems to work and the PH has to finish them a point-blank range with his 600. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Why in he world couldn't you brain or spine a charging buff? That's pretty much the only way to stop one. I would like to see video of a buff being flipped over backwards from a .500. Sounds like something Jines would claim. Do not preach to me about flipping a buff ass over end cause I've done it. So I do believe it is possible! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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CHARGE equates to FRONTAL approach. RUNNING equates to REAR departure. Ain't no brains in the rear end though some people do! IMO it is impossible to spine a charging buffalo at 10yds unless you "throat" him and as luck may have it the bullet may traverse the spinal column somewhere between the neck and shoulders. It is also easier to get to its brain from the front but sometimes it is safer and wiser to place that bullet where you are sure it will make its mark and STOP the charge, and if necessary, bang a second - that is the whole idea and purpose of a double rifle (unless you rank yourself to the level of MS)  Spining is the classic shot offered from the REAR while it is RUNNING (away?) - a miss on the spine could be low and it would bust the ass bone - a high miss could produce a lucky brain shot from the REAR. By the way, I am not preaching, just letting you know you have nothing worthwhile to teach on the subject and besides, you seem to contradict yourself pretty much. | |||
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WHAT? I'm trying to figure out what this mythical video is showing. First you're telling the buff is charging, then the buff is running away. Next it will be up a tree or line dancing!! You can't spine a charging buff even when their head is up, or down? Even with a 500?If not, I'd throw that damn 500 in the nearest water hole. I've seen the never miss PH's in the videos miss when the charging buff was about to step on their toes. Is that the videos we are talking about. Just giving you crap. No offense meant. Take care. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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filmit, that's a cheap shot. Read the whole post, biebs was more than man enough to carry his own rifle all the way, he is talking about a secondary, dedicated big bore. (Plus he stood his ground in more than one mock (and real) charge, with his own gun.) In one of Boddington's books, he advocates exactly the same thing, carry the more general purpose gun yourself, and have a tracker carry your heavyweight. (or vice versa) A lot of the hunting done today, the rifle (and the dreams) that you use paly an integral part of how much you enjoy the safari. Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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Lets go back to the original question which had three elements to it and one of them was not about who was shooting although it could be assumed that jfm is inferring the sport hunter and not the backup PH. I took the question on face value as asking what were some of the good rifles for taking elephant at the normal close ranges that these beasts are usually tackled at. IMO stopping capability is important under some circumstances, but for elephant especially I would imagine penetration (enough of it) and shootability are probably more important factors. The hunter with a rifle having adequate penetration and being nicely shootable is more likely to produce a proper killing shot first time. As most PH's who post here are first to admit, they are far happier to see a hunter turn up with a well used 375 or 40 cal than a new and obviously hardly fired monster double or magazine for that matter. Most of the old time professionals advocated the really big bores as good stoppers of elephants where the brain was missed and the shock of a heavy bullet in the head would put the beast down for some time until a killing shot could be applied. Taylor developed his KO values around this concept and the 40 cals qualified as capable of doing the job under his rating. Obviously the larger bores score higher, but then the question of shootability starts coming into the equation. Considering the original question, I don't think my analysis is so far out where any of the well known cartridges from 40 cal up are "good ones regarding elephant hunting". The 450/400, 404, 425, 416 are all capable of stopping an elephant, certainly are right up with the best on penetration, and are so easily shootable. IMO they answer the question as well as any others and that's all that was asked.  | |||
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Karl it wasn't a cheap shot and it wasn't aimed at Biebs. It was aimed at anyone in general who wants to kill an animal and not put any sweat into doing it themselves. Biebs distinctly said he would carry a Rigby or Lott, so it never crossed my mind that he wasn't packing. The way I read his post, I didn't realize he was talking about carrying two seperate rifles which makes more sense if you want both rifles at your disposal. How I interpreted his post was if someone couldn't handle carrying their rifle then pawn it off on some poor tracker. There's plenty of hunters that do that as well. To each their own I guess. To set the record straight, I wasn't implying that anyone here would do that. | |||
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In that case filmit, my apologies, I jumped the gun. (Or should it be passed the gun...?) Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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500 NE double at 11-11.5 lbs. I do not believe I am the first to make mention of this. It would appear most are shot at less than 30 yards so no since in a scoped rifle unless the eyes are getting a little long in the tooth. Have not hunted one, using what logic I have picked up from the experts on this forum. Double rifle + Penetration of 500 NE + Ammo availability + Carry weight + "Stun" capacity that some subscribe too + | |||
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. . . now that you mention it, several years ago I shot a buffalo with my .500 and it did not just flip over, but actually did a one and a half gainer with a twist. It would have scored 90+ but we were screwed by the Russian judge that just gave us a 7.5 despite the high degree of difficulty. We had it on film but I accidently dropped my peanut butter and jelly sandwich on the film cartridge and it was ruined. Buzz saw it though and can back me up . . . Mike | |||
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No hand held rifle has enough energy (?) to turn a charging buffalo over backwards. If one is turned over backwards it is because the right nerves were stimulated to cause the muscles to do the over turning. Even the 500 Nitro is not a failsafe weapon for buff. Last year at Sengwa Research Area, a PH put two rounds into a charging cow buff and the cow then hit him causing a lot of bruising but he survived. That cow wasn't stopped let alone turned over. She got away to never be seen again, so where he hit her, if he did hit her is unknown. 465H&H | |||
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why do you guys always miss the opportunities?! You should also be posting pictures of the rifles! I'm curious as to statistically which double cartridge and which bolt cartridge have taken the most jumbos. Excluding all of Bell's of course. Filmit's comments made me think of something I've wondered before but always forget to ask. why are "tame" or trained elephants, like circus elephants, never African? I don't think I've ever seen an African elephant in person, I'd like to because I imagine they're much larger than the asian, they look massive at least on screen, and the asians I've seen in person didn't seem THAT big to me. Red | |||
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I stand corrected. How can I out do that one? ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I prefer the .500 A-Square for elephant. Cape buffalo, too. I think it's about the limit of practical power (or at least it is for me). It's an incredibly powerful and effective round. I generally believe that bigger is better, but there is a point where diminishing returns make bigger impractical. For me, that point is the .500 A-Square. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I have only read the last page and will only comment about a guys claim that it is impossible to break the neck of a oncoming buff unless you go under the throat and catch the spine. On our Boddington On Buffalo 2 DVD , Ivan Carter and Gary Nielson show a perfect over the head , down into the spine shot where a big bull's momentum flips him completely over- dead as can be. I have seen this shot more than once, and can tell you that it is the best shot (on level ground if the shooter is at least average size in height) in my opinion. Unless the head is up, and I mean way up, the spine is visible and not bobbing up and down as a buff's head does inbound. Easier target by a long shot and the one I will opt for if presented in the future. Dave Fulson | |||
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"I have seen this shot more than once, and can tell you that it is the best shot (on level ground if the shooter is at least average size in height) in my opinion. Unless the head is up, and I mean way up, the spine is visible and not bobbing up and down as a buff's head does inbound."  | |||
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Fresh curmudgeon cakes, anyone! I LOVE my Will!!! | |||
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Am I boring you with facts? Dave Fulson | |||
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Dave, You are exactly correct. That's how I was taught to do it. As to rifle/caliber for Ele, took my first with a bolt .375H&H in '98. Got home and immediately bought a bigger gun. Now have three bigger guns and will take my next Ele with a DR in 500 NE. Chifuti in 2011. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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"Once you try black you will never look back" might or might not be true for women but once you kill an elephant with a 500 double I can be certain you will never use anything else. Australia I love a sunburnt country, A land of sweeping plains, Of ragged mountain ranges, Of drought and flooding rains. I love her far horizons, I love her jewel-sea, Her beauty and her terror The wide brown land for me! | |||
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