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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting There has never been a better time to go!!!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
All of the whining on the other thread over the price of safaris is just whining. There has never been a better time to go on safari than now! You have more countries to chose from, more animals to chase and cheaper airfares than in a long long time. Look at your salary, the price of oil, the price of houses, the price of milk, your taxes - tell me truthfully - is there a better hunting deal out there than Africa? Texas whitetails run $8500 and up for a 170" or bigger deer. So you want your own lease? Go ahead and spend $5 per acre, then make the investment in feeders and accommodations and see what you have spent. Elk anywhere than public land cost $7500 to $20,000 for a 5 or 7 day hunt on a private ranch. Any plainsgame deal is better than this. Simple antelope in Wyoming or NM will set you back $2500 to @4000 for a 3 day hunt for an average pronghorn. Try any sheep hunt - they start at $15k and go up. Aoudad go for $3500 to $7000 even. If you are into cull hunts - where in the US or Canada can you do that cheaper than Africa? You can't. Hunting for us is 100% pure luxury and self indulgence - so I go, take my wife who does not like diamonds and stuff - we spend our luxury dollars on hunting. No one reading this is a subsistence hunter! I would be anyone $100 that if they are on the internet reading AR, they do not hunt for the "meat" to survive. So, go to Africa - it is still a super deal. | ||
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And most important of all is that one is not going to live forever. So go and enjoy yourself. Life is far too short! | |||
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x2  "At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein | |||
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I agree that a plains game package hunt in South Africa or Namibia is a bargain compared to an Elk hunt. In Africa, you will get excellent accommodation, great food and get to harvest several animals. I personally would not go on an Elk hunt when I can get a better hunt in Africa for the same price. But with that said, there is still a lot of unfilled capacity in the African market. The main reason may be the economy in general, but the specific complaints about pricing are a contributor to the slack in outfitter schedules. | |||
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I'll keep going because ten years from now it may not be possible. I do enjoy the discussion of how prices go up when the Rand exchange rate goes down and how the prices go up due to the Rand going down, because the outfitter's costs go up for supplies. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Is Africa hunting the best value for money - for me yes - but I like plains game hunting. An eland tops a buffalo for me. Also I don't care about trophies, taxidermy or bringing it back. I will be hunting africa if have the time. Only thing in US I want to shoot is a nice axis deer. However relative to other activities - offshore fishing and other luxury discretionary activities dangerous game african hunting has gotten stupidly expensive. Depends what you comp everything too - if everything one spend on discretionary activity is just hunting then african hunting still works cause regardless of price inflation on absolute basis it is cheap on a relative basis to hunting north america. Mike | |||
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Eland, Nyala, Zebra and big Kudu still keep me longing for more I'll figure it out As far as the states.....diy for me ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I think you're missing the point D.C. I don't think most multiple safari veterans are arguing that African outfitters are getting rich and taking advantage of their clients. At least speaking for myself, I find the problem to be mainly the African governments view of safari hunters as having unlimited funds, or more accurately, limited funds that no matter how high they raise quota fees, we will be willing to part with those funds for safari at the exclusion of other adventures indefinitely! Put it this way, you may not have hit the threshold of where the steep rise in government safari prices are making a dent in your "demand" just yet, but we've seen buffalo prices go from less than $10k all in just a few years ago to being upwards of $15K today. If you wanted to hunt Moz and were quoted $28K for a 10 day buff, but could do a 10 day buff hunt in Zim for $15K, would you pay the extra $13K just for the different location? If the answer is yes, it won't be long before the Zim officials say to themselves, "Hey, those guys over the border there in Moz are charging almost double what we are and they are selling out their quota. We need to match those prices". So very soon, Zim buffalo start going for $28K as well. How long before THAT number gets doubled to $56K for a 10 day buffalo hunt? That's the mentality that's driving the prices up and up and up as the African governments setting quota prices have no clue that there is a point at which the golden goose can no longer survive. Obviously, we haven't gotten to that point just yet, but you are already seeing guys on this forum who instead of going every year, now go every other year, or every third year or less. If prices continue to go up and up with no reset back to reality, will we reach a point where die hard safari goers simply go every 10 years, or will they decide that other adventures which can be afforded numerous times in that same 10 year period, are more attractive? For me, I'm pretty much at that point already. Supply and demand. At today's prices, MY demand is quite a bit less than it was a few years ago. That's not to say EVERYONE ELSE's demand has hit that point. But I expect that with a few exceptions, more and more guys are going to start looking elsewhere. All that regardless of Africa's prices being better than an Elk or Sheep hunt here in the US. My demand for those hunts was exceeded by price some time back. Africa is catching up but I suspect the North American hunts will always have more demand as there are, simply put, a lot of hunters that just consider a trip to "The Dark Continent" too far outside of their comfort zone. | |||
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Why should we expect african governments to be able to optimally set prices on hunting - they have a terrible record of public finance ? The african governments will keep raising fees and rates as long as the market bears it. The outfitters will keep passing on the fees and move other previously included costs to new line items. Everyone is linearly extrapolating - every year keep raising prices 10-15 percent. If someone is willing to pay 15K for a buffalo - they will pay $20K and in 2 years 25K - that is the assumption. Just run anything compounding at 10-15 percent annually and in 10 years you have a big number. I have said it before - this cannot go on. Same time you are getting nothing for the money - the governments are not doing basic wildlife management. Elephants getting shot out in TZ - sure they will sell you a license with a elephant on it - good luck finding one. There will be a certain percentage of hunters for whom most hunting costs are irrelevant. However, the hunting industry is not based on these guys and they can be flakey bunch. Hell I hunted in save first time in August/September 2010 - Ghadaffi son was hunting the lower concession. When I went back in March 2011 he was dead. So much for having a private airbus a300 fly you around. Mining has just blown up - we are entering a commodity down cycle for metals and mining just like 1980-2000 was. The African governments are about to wake up to a new reality. Oil looking at the futures is in the dumps for next 5 years. Angola is going to have to deal with a new reality. Moz same with its big gas projects. All these african governments and outfitters also reference - if buffalo in one place is $15K-20K - they will raises fees and rates to equate them out. If one raises fees others will follow. Why Tanzania not selling hunts is a great cause it puts downward pressure on other guys. SOuth African game ranching keeps others nations honest - worst case go shoot a buffalo with a blue tag in ear in South Africa. For me being charged 50% more for the same kind of hunt as 5 years before I start to either look at alternatives or just not do it. A buffalo at $20-25K just does not cut it for me - at $12-16 I may be a buyer. It hunting at the end of the day - a discretionary activity - we cannot assume its demand to be highly price inelasticity. I am hoping all african hunters are not like me - downgrading to plains game. Would hate for eland prices to skyrocket. Mike | |||
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Always been true. I did what I could, when I could, as I could and until Dad goes to be with his Savior, now I can't. Soon be right years away from really living (and I live in Texas!) _______________________ | |||
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LOL! $5/acre? I wish! Maybe in the deserts of West Texas, but anything near Dallas or in South Texas is closer to $15/acre, if not more. Yes, Africa is a good value in today's hunting market, even with the travel, the paperwork and the other peripheral bs. analog_peninsula ----------------------- It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence. | |||
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Maybe there's a disconnect on who the average African hunter is. The economy has not been good to most of us for the last 7-8 years. I am personally going backwards when you compare wage increases to cost of living. Buff hunting In Zim. When the price was around 10K - 15K was stretching it for me. Now its beyond what I am willing to spend. So I am going to Burkina Faso instead. I have walked in the foot prints of the elephant, listened to lion roar and met the buffalo on his turf. I shall never be the same. | |||
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I feel much the same way. I find guided moose, elk, big mule deer, big whitetails, big anything.....prices here in the US borderline ridiculous. I'd rather spend my $6k in Namibia, hunting plains game, and drinking Tafel's around the fire pit. | |||
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My thoughts as I was reading dogcat's original post was, who cares what it costs I'll be dead soon enough and I can't take it with me. Saeed's post was apropos. I'll never go everywhere I'd like, but I'll keep going to Africa as long as I'm able. Then my kids can put me in a nursing home and take my ammunition and sharp objects away. But I'll still be able to fondle my doubles, look at my pictures and taxidermy, and read my books. | |||
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Clara and I did our first trip to Africa this year. We hunted plains game in Namibia. After walking the aisles at the DSC and comparing prices, nothing even comes close to the value of a plains game hunt in Africa. We are not rich. We work hard so we can enjoy life but we want the best value for our money. We plan to return to Africa next year. Nothing is getting cheaper and anytime money and/or government are involved you have to beware and guard your wallet. If you don't have access to land, hunting in the US can be ridiculously expensive. Check out what it costs to shoot a deer in Texas. For our money, we would rather go back to Africa. | |||
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SFR: Very well reasoned. Please excuse me. I gave up tobacco yesterday. Life is less than good. | |||
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Ross, ten to fifteen years ago I would have agreed wholeheartedly. But there have been drastic changes in the past decade, most brought about by Chinese affluence and the rampant poaching it funds, and also by greedy, stupid and sanctimonious governments, both in Africa and in the so-called first world. Nowadays, and I admittedly say this from the perspective of one who has experienced vastly better days, it's all a question of settling for less. But I will agree with you this far: less in Africa is better than more almost anywhere else. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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For us Aus hunters earning the devalued Aus dollar, local hunts are a better option at the moment. | |||
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Is there a special nursing home for people with double rifles? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Yes It is called a mental asylum. | |||
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You are making very good points. I was booked for buffalo last year and had been planning for 2 yers including a new big bore rifle and lots of small bits & pieces. Then 32 months before departure my business got slow & customers pulled back. Now 12 months later business is back on track and I have also taken up full time employment! So my income has doubled but no time to take off! May be next year! I am not into 5 star resorts & camps. I like the idea of Fairgame's place! Quality area & PH with good camp but not extravagant from my understanding. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I have an elk guide I use for packstring hunts in the Selway (rifle bugle) that costs about 5K (I honestly can't remember, but I always wonder how he can do that hunt for so little money), which is less money than a PG hunt in Namibia. BUT...in my eye, a big 6x6 is a much better trophy than any PG animal, including common eland, for the simple fact they are more difficult. And I love the Selway in the fall - the horses, the wall tents, everything about it. A big moose? Much better than just about any African trophy except lion, a big ele, bongo, or LDE. Buffalo hunting? A brown bear is much more desirable than a buffalo IMO. Like I have said a few times before, there is no shortage of fat guys with full African trophy rooms. But the lack of elk, moose, brown bear, or other difficult game is often obvious. As far as comfort and relaxation, I agree Africa is tops, but I don't hunt just for that - I do it for a challenge, and most PG is not that challenging. That is why I try and shoot better animals than I have before. I find it frustrating if a PH tries to get me to shoot something that is "representative." An elk guide will never pressure you into shooting an animal you don't want because there is a crap load of work after you pull the trigger. If I want to go shoot, I gong shoot at the local range or go out and shoot rocks if I want to shoot past 500 yards. I don't need to kill animals constantly. As far as the economy goes, our net worth has gone up 5X since Obama came into office, so I am not crying. MsAZW had a ton of stock options at 2.50 - 10/share that are now worth $43 (we cashed a lot out). My software business is going gangbusters, I dumped a few million into real estate starting in 2009 (didn't quite hit the bottom but painted a wide swath across the bottom) that has really popped, and I didn't sell anything in the stock market drop, but rather bought deep in the money SPY calls. My CEF bond funds recently took a hit, but you can't win them all. I have a lot of dry powder waiting for the next opportunity. | |||
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Some of us hunt domestically with tags and in state is a pretty good deal. I went on back to back Bull Elk hunts in the rut in Arizona as a resident. I have hunted the Kaibab. I can bear hunt almost year round for $28. Lions $15. Hunt Bull elk in Colorado OTC for $500. My buddy just pulled a Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep in AZ. I have 20 points on free Bison in AZ etc etc. While I love Africa and can't wait to go back it is not as affordable to the "average" guy as DIY hunts in the USA or Alaska. Face it Africa is a luxury hunt. Plane tickets, daily rates, trophy fees. Tips etc. Most people I know can't fathom it, but I still tell them to go White Mountains Arizona | |||
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I will take an elk hunt in the rut in AZ over just about any other hunting, including most African hunting except for maybe ele and cats. Where else can you see dozens of big slobering bulls every morning and evening?? In fact, it is almost too easy... And coyotes? Calling them is really exciting - or used to be until every Tom Dick and Harry got a FoxPro - they sure don't come in like they used to. | |||
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I think a lot of it comes down to why you go hunting. I hunt upwards of 30 days a year near my home: deer with a bow, deer with a rifle, turkeys, waterfowl and some small game. I also usually go out west every year or so for antelope, mulies or elk with family. Those hunts are for meat, time outdoors, time with family. It's what I have had the good fortune to do, some years more than others, for over forty years now; I grew up with it. But hunting in Africa...! I dreamt of it as a small boy, reading the outdoor magazines, watching the movies and TV shows. Shooting animals wasn't (and isn't) the main reason I go. It's to be there and see the animals, smell the mopane or acacia fire in the morning and the evening, to hear the PH's stories, to see an enormous variety of wildlife, far more diverse than in North America, to hear the bird and animal calls. The first night I was in camp in the Save I couldn't sleep-- not from jet lag, but because of all the new things to hear! It is frightfully expensive for me. So much so that in the fifteen years since I started saving for my first trip I have only been three times. Next year I will take my son-- he as the hunter and me as the observer-- for his first trip. I have spent money on African hunting and taxidermy that a more prudent man would have saved for retirement or his kids' college. And sometimes I regret it. But as I sit in my office in the courthouse dealing with some of humanity's nastiest problems (just finished a sentencing hearing on a possession of child pornography case) I am surrounded by photos, wood carvings and a few stones from different places I've hunted in Africa. I am glad I have gone. The fact of the matter is, an African hunt is unique. Bow hunting for elk is a lot harder, hunting whitetails near home puts a lot more meat in my freezer and after 25 years hunting in the same area there are a lot of wonderful memories that come to me whenever I set foot on that familiar ground near home. But there are no leopards coughing in the night. No bushbabies screaming. No trees pushed over by elephant. No hornbills gliding across the road in front of the hunting car. That's what some of us pay for, not danger, luxury or lots of heads of strange-looking game. That's why I will continue to go as often as I can manage, though surely there can't be that many trips left for me before I'm too old at the rate I can afford to buy them. | |||
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No nursing home for me! They can just take my ammo away, give me an unloaded double rifle and turn me out in grizzly bear country, and forget me! ......................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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I save been three times,12,13 and 14. May go back in 16. I agree that the value compared to many NOAM hunts is very good. However when you start talking dangerous game, not so much. At the DSC meeting last Jan, a very reputable booking agent told me he thinks that safari hunting as we know it will not be around past five or so more years. NRA Patron member | |||
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I remember once when I was just a tike my uncle a veteran of over 20 some safaris told me the very same thing. "Safaris wont be around long you'll be lucky if theres any hunting left by the time you get old enough" Ive heard that so many times I'm starting to think it is mandatory to say once you've been there a few times. I may be wrong but I believe there are more Safaris taking place now than when he was making 2 trips a year during the 80's and 90's...the sky is not falling | |||
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For me Africa is about dangerous game hunting, and the best place by lightyears to do it. The plains game, while interesting, is the same to me as Elk deer and sheep. But the big dangerous stuff...That's why I want go there and will continually dream and borrow and save. White Mountains Arizona | |||
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Unfortionatly This doesn't apply to everyone! The whole thing changes when you are still working the safaris are a real bargain, however when one retires and is on a fixed income, safaris are a real large part of his whole income with little descretionary funds to work with. That,unfortunatly is the case for me, the safari industry has simply priced me out of the game! ...................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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This is really an interesting post... I have only been to Africa twice (Plains game). Therefore I am not much of an authority. However, did shoot a lot of Plains Game and really did enjoy it. However, comparing it to North American game is difficult. Sure, African hunting is cheap on a "per animal" basis. But, when you start adding hide prep (dip and pack), crating fees, import fees, and shipping, it really adds up. Its never as cheap as most think! My friend offered a full 7 day Wyoming elk/deer combo hunt for $6,500 this year. Guaranteed draw and a really good shot at a 170" buck and 300"+ bull. Not a bad deal! There are still good deals in North America! If I ever do go back to Africa, I am leaving all of my animals there! Then, that would possibly be a great value! | |||
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I may not be a true 'substance' hunter in the literal sense of the word but living off the meat that I kill is an important part of the hunting experience. The fact that meat cannot be brought back from Africa is the deal breaker for me. I know that game meat is prepared and served in the camp, and what isn't eaten in camp is donated to the locals, so little, if anything, goes to waste. Still, I have a personal issue with shooting a pile of animals and getting only a few mouthfuls of meat for all of the time and $$$ invested. That said, I've seen offers for plains game hunts that were very tempting. At first glance it looked like a person could shoot a whole bunch of stylish critter for less than the cost of one mule deer on a guided hunt out West. But when all is said and done, the total "door to door" tab for a $5,000 plains game hunt can easily top $10K or more. The incremental costs are much lower on NA hunts. No longer Bigasanelk | |||
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I would like all of my grandchildren to see Africa and understand what I love. She has been very good to me. Mike | |||
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Big, I agree. I was turned off by leaving the meat behind but then I learned that the Africans eat every piece of everything - bones, tail, lips, eyes, guts and of course the meat. Nothing is wasted in Africa. The issue of not bring the meat home is practical and prevents spread of disease and the meat is not wasted. An average elk shot in the US weights 600 pounds. Of those 600 pounds, you end up with less than half of that in meat at home. In Africa, a 600 pound kudu yields about 575 pounds of usable meat and product for the local folks. I am ok with that. | |||
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"There has never been a better time to go!!!" Well, you're right in one sense, that things will probably be worse in the future ... worse day by day moving forward, but wrong in the sense that any time before now was better - better day by day moving backward ... so saying that "there has never been a better time to go" may be true today ... but it has been true for every day in the past ... and will be true for every day in the future ... ... ... ... ... ... ad infinitum ... ... ... it's a sequitur ... ... ...  | |||
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Dude - you nailed it.. Took the words right out of my mouth!!! "At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein | |||
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Love elk and deer hunting, Africa hunting is just different and just as good. Money is always the same, if you have extra, you are going to spend it one way or the other. So the choice is ours... " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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. A great post. For me living in Africa makes it even easier and cheaper to hunt Africa - cheaper flights, a lot of taxidermy stays in RSA at our place there, less paper etc. I guess I would be mad not to hunt 2 - 3 times a year on longer hunts plus a whole lot of short duration 1 - 3 day trips. Found the US pricing to be very interesting in this thread, especially coming from Europe. A roe buck over a couple of days may go for as little as EUR 500,- with some great deals on boar (driven hunts from EUR 1.250,-). Red stag in Scotland are great to hunt and very resonably priced - we put together a full catered week all in and 10 stags last year for under USD 17.500,- for 10 people ... hard to beat. But Africa is simply unique - the sights, sounds, smells and the variety of game to hunt. As long as my legs and bank balance can keep us here or take us here/there we will keep hunting Africa. . "Up the ladders and down the snakes!" | |||
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Great post dogcat. After all whining does never help. Hunting trips have never been cheap and hunting in Africa and Asia has always been for the "rich". There might have been a few "fat years" for US hunters where more could afford it BUT the baseline is that hunting in awesome places is awefully expensive. You can either sit at home and cry about it or you just make the best out of your opportunties. I have been to Africa several times every year for many years. I have done other trips and have hunted almost 30 countries. I do need to sacrify many things for it but in the end I am a (traveling) hunter. All I every wanted was to hunt the wild places the world has to offer, so my only choice is to make the best out of my opportunties and ENJOY it. Cheers, Dennis | |||
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