I was just in Africa talking with a PH who is planning on having his own booth for the first time in Las Vegas. Surprisingly, he told me that he was required to make a hunt donation in order to have a booth. This destroys the whole meaning of the word "donation" for me, but I will also look at the offered hunts differently. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this. Anyone else have an opinion on this or different information? Is this even true?

Yep...otherwise the outfit goes onto a perpetual "waiting list".

It's true in spades.

A quick search will show you how much of an emotive subject SCI & their donation scheme can sometimes be.

edholum-

A hunt or product donation is just a part of the booth fee along with the dollar amount an exhibitor pays to exhibit at the SCI Convention. Plain and simple. Some don't think it's fair, but it's their show, their rules so if you want to be there and participate, that's the rules and cost of doing so. No one is forced to participate, but evidently a lot of folks think it's worth it, with over 1200 exhibitors scheduled for the next show in early 2012.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by edholum:
I was just in Africa talking with a PH who is planning on having his own booth for the first time in Las Vegas. Surprisingly, he told me that he was required to make a hunt donation in order to have a booth. This destroys the whole meaning of the word "donation" for me, but I will also look at the offered hunts differently. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this. Anyone else have an opinion on this or different information? Is this even true?

They contacted my New Mexico outfitter and wanted a hunt donation and $2500 for a booth. That's just crazy.

Larry I agree with you that it is their show and what not, but they shouldn't call these hunts donations when they are part of the fee of having a booth.

Newsflash:

Making a donation does not buy his way into the show. There is a long list of folks wanting into the show with items and hunts to donate. He could donate a hunt and still not get in. These donations translate to a points that are awarded to exhibitors. The exhibitors with the most points get in first. Until he gets sufficient points to get in the dooor, he shouldn't even buy a plane ticket.

I've talked to major hunt donors who did not get into the show until Tuesday night before it opened on Wednesday. It's all about the Benjamins.

I'm more than happy to donate a hunt to DSC. They don't force it on me. This will be my 3rd year to donate but it works for all involved.

SCI's mission is to raise funds designated towards the conservation of wildlife worldwide and promoting hunting. I'd encourage everyone to make 2 donations.

Someonce can donate a hunt to me which I will gladly accept.

And I am a far better guy that the wankers taht run SCI>

Edholum there is much more you don't know nor do you want too, book one of those hunts and have something go wrong and watch them run like cowards! SCI First for MONEY!

Pancho; carefull! don't drink too much kool aid

For our local SCI chapter, North Texas SCI, I happen to be the guy who sells the booths and solicits hunt donations for our annual fund raiser. I usually offer a discount on the booth, in exchange for a donation. If the donation is a large one, I comp the booth.

It's a cost of advertising for the outfitter. If they don't want to advertise with us, we understand. We don't force anyone to participate. Being located in the same geographical area as DSC, we are a small chapter. It cost our chapter close to $100,000 to put on the fundraiser event. We purchase guns, ATVs, etc. to auction. Many of these are sold at prices that don't cover our expenses. We spend a large sum on purchasing Billboard ads for 2 to 3 months prior to the expo. Etc, Etc..... Are we expected to do this as a public service and eat the 100 grand?

So if we take the position of not seeking hunt donations, when the members and quests show up for the auction, hoping to get a bargain on a trip, and there are no hunts to bid on, what then. Everyone will complain that SCI didn't put together a good show?

Again, it is supposed to be a mutually beneficial arrangement. Outfitters pay for and or make a donation in return for a booth to display their wares and services. We put on a show that attracts customers as hunters attend to purchase a greatly discounted hunt. In the process, potential buyers get a chance to speak with outfitters face to face and ask questions about what hunts are offered. If they don't win the bid, they often buy a hunt anyway.

Our SCI chapter makes money to contribute to conservation, the members and guests get discounted hunts, and the outfitters sell hunts. Win, Win, Win.


Come on guys, I don't see the reason for the outrage.

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:
Someonce can donate a hunt to me which I will gladly accept.

And I am a far better guy that the wankers taht run SCI>

Hasher, are you better than me? Maybe since I'm such a "wanker" as you put it. But I'm sure you're a fine gentleman. As far as you know!

quote:

Originally posted by miko:
Edholum there is much more you don't know nor do you want too, book one of those hunts and have something go wrong and watch them run like cowards! SCI First for MONEY!

Pancho; carefull! don't drink too much kool aid

Miko, book one of those hunts at full price directly with the outfitter, have something go wrong and then who do you say runs away like a coward? If you read the auction catalog, it clearly states that the purchase is between you and the outfitter and that SCI is not responsible for issues that may appear after the purchase. I don't say that to be a cop out. I'm stating facts. The disclaimer is there BEFORE you spend a dime for a hunt. If you are uncomfortable with that arrangement, don't buy the hunt. Nobody is twisting your arm. SCI is trying to raise money to promote hunters rights and conservation. Most, like myself, do this without pay. I know that in our chapter, we have had unfortunate situations occur that are beyond our control. In those circumstances, we have tried to help facilitate an acceptable outcome for the hunter. Sometimes we can help, sometimes not. It is the hunter's responsibility to check references prior to purchasing a discounted hunt through SCI, just as it would be if you purchased the hunt directly through the outfitter at full price. If you uncover anything that makes you uncomfortable with the outfitter, don't buy the hunt. And by the way, we have had just as many "issues" if not more with the hunters that purchased the hunts than with the outfitters. Are we to be the whipping boy for both ends of the deal? I can't tell you the number of guys we have caught bidding and winning a $10,000 hunt for $1,500 and then turning around and selling it for $5,000. We don't do reference checks on the hunters or outfitters. That is the individual parties responsibilities. Again, if you are not OK with that, don't buy the hunt. Really, SCI simply tries to put the hunter and outfitter in the same room, it's up to the two parties to become comfortable enough with each other to make a deal. Both parties are making a donation of sorts to the SCI mission statement. Both parties usually get something out of it as well. The hunter should get a great hunt and the outfitter often sells an upgrade or additional hunt to a companion hunter, and SCI gets funds to help promote the hunters' and outfitters' interests. Again, if that doesn't wash with you, don't participate.

I'm a member of SCI for one reason and one reason only. Who else besides SCI and DSC are working on behalf of the international hunter's interests. Really, the interests of ALL hunters. There are other organizations for sure such as DU, RMEF, etc. They all do things a bit differently and focus on different segments of the hunting community. But the bottom line is, they exist to promote our hunting heritage. If you don't believe our hunting heritage is under fire from powerful forces, you seriously need to wake up. The organization is not perfect and mistakes do happen. But the important thing is that we try to make a difference. If you think our methods are not sound, don't participate.

Who is the current president of SCI?

Is it Out of Africa's lawyer?

Who is the current president of the United States?

Is is Barack Obama?

Don't agree with the folks that voted him into office either, but still believe it's a great country! An organization that promotes positive ideals should be able to transcend an individual personality.

If you analyze the auctions, you'll find they aren't as hard on the outfitter as many would have you believe. First of all, I very much doubt that the majority of persons who win a hunt, at least in Africa, only shoot included animals. Secondly, many of the auctions only include the daily rate anyway leaving the outfitter free to charge anything he likes for trophies. In addition, many will bring along family/friends who aren't discounted at all.

There is one (probably others as well) outfitter who attends the SCI convention yearly. If you win their auction, you pay from their list of trophy fee prices. If you book directly with them, you get a discount of, as I recall, about 50% which brings the cost of trophies down to about what everyone else is charging.

In short, many of the auctions are no bargain at all and don't hurt the outfitter one little bit.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Who is the current president of the United States?

Is is Barack Obama?

Don't agree with the folks that voted him into office either, but still believe it's a great country! An organization that promotes positive ideals should be able to transcend an individual personality.

Very well said.

[/QUOTE]
1.Miko, book one of those hunts at full price directly with the outfitter, have something go wrong and then who do you say runs away like a coward? If you read the auction catalog, it clearly states that the purchase is between you and the outfitter and that SCI is not responsible for issues that may appear after the purchase.
2. SCI is trying to raise money to promote hunters rights and conservation. Most, like myself, do this without pay.
3. It is the hunter's responsibility to check references prior to purchasing a discounted hunt through SCI, just as it would be if you purchased the hunt directly through the outfitter at full price. If you uncover anything that makes you uncomfortable with the outfitter, don't buy the hunt.
4. We don't do reference checks on the hunters or outfitters. That is the individual parties responsibilities. Again, if you are not OK with that, don't buy the hunt. Really, SCI simply tries to put the hunter and outfitter in the same room, it's up to the two parties to become comfortable enough with each other to make a deal. Both parties are making a donation of sorts to the SCI mission statement. Both parties usually get something out of it as well. The hunter should get a great hunt and the outfitter often sells an upgrade or additional hunt to a companion hunter, and SCI gets funds to help promote the hunters' and outfitters' interests. Again, if that doesn't wash with you, don't participate.

5. I'm a member of SCI for one reason and one reason only. Who else besides SCI and DSC are working on behalf of the international hunter's interests. Really, the interests of ALL hunters.
6. If you think our methods are not sound, don't participate.[/QUOTE]


Todd -
1. the issue is not about an auction hunt rather a hunt pruchased as you mentioned between hunter and outfitter. I have read the auction rules but no need in this case.
One would expect that the hunter should be protected, by SCI, from bad outfitters especially when aware of the issues more than 2 years prior to exhibiting.

2. Agree with you, I have rights as I'am a hunter. But, I have no rights to information that is known by SCI prior to exhibits/shows? one would think if you pay due's there would be some interest from SCI to allow legit outfitters in their shows. I think they are more informed than their memebers who are counting on them to "working on behalf of the international hunter's interests".

3. Did that and found I was uncomfortable with SCI's prior knowledge years in advance of purchasing the NON DISCOUNTED hunt (FULL PRICE) but for some reason outfitter was still allowed to exhibit when they were kicked out by the smaller chapters.

4. Carefull you are talking out of both sides of your mouth here.
"We don't do reference checks"
"That is the individual parties responsibilities"
"it's up to the two parties"
AND HERE IT IS;
"SCI gets funds to help promote the hunters' and outfitters' interests"
"working on behalf of the international hunter's interests. Really, the interests of ALL hunters"

Really?

5. I would think there are many others just step outside of the SCI box and they will come to you.
I am a member also.

6. I think your methods are to politically driven and you lost focus on the hunter. I don't participate anymore nor have plans too.

I seen in your next post your answer to the question asked by the administrator Saeed "who is the SCI president" and you answer with a question, that would be politically driven, about who is the president of the United States? Then you go off on some political tangent.
Just to inform you that was not the question nor was your answer an answer, that would be an opinion. As I mentioned above "politically motivated". Good luck with your money!

SCI DOES help hunters, there is no question about that.

But, I see that as time goes, they have gravitated to a bunch of "mine is bigger than yours", especially the higher ups in SCI.

This has become the holy grail, forgetting the whole idea of actually hunting and conservation on the way.

Many of the higher ups in SCI do not care about conservation, or any game laws, as long as they can get their name higher than others in "book".

How many of past SCI have been proved to have done illegal things?

Also, their "Donations" and other nickle-dime exhibitors to the extent of extortion - I am not going into details, as I am sure one of the exhbitors can tell us his charges for power, Internet etc.

How long did it take SCI to act and get onto the rhino poaching fiasco, and their total support for Out of Africa despite all the evidence?

Then it transpired that the man behind all this is elected president?

I handle the donations and booths for the Northern Ohio chapter. An outfitter can pay for a booth, setup and sell lots of hunts without a donation if so desired but that is not our strategy.. We want the outfitters to make a donation and based on that donation we may fly them in, give them booth space and provide lodging - all dependent on the value of the donation... The outfitters can and do fari very well at our event - one year a South African outfitter donated a plains game hunt that we sold for around $4500.00 (FMV at $10,000.00) but booked two full price buff hunts that night!

Remember it IS a FUNDRAISER! At the end, we return a small percentage of our net profit to home office for national issues but we retain at least 70% of what we raise to allocate to projects in our LOCAL area.

Miko, it seems you have some serious issues with SCI and have decided to no longer participate. I think you have made the right decision for you!

#4. Yes, I do think SCI works on behalf of hunters' interests. Really! Do they do so without any mistakes or methods I occasionally disagree with? No. Does any organization succeed at making all parties happy all the time? I don't know of any. I think I acknowledged that it isn't a perfect organization. There will always be folks involved within any group who have less than "pure" motivations.

#5. You took me out of context. I mentioned Ducks Unlimited, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, etc., etc.

#6 As I said earlier, I think you made the proper decision for you.

Saeed answered his own first question. The second question was rhetorical. No need for me to answer again. I merely attempted to respond in like manner. I don't think I went on a political "rant". If so, it was not my intention. I was just trying to point out that we all have disagreements with who we find "leading" us at times. You and I agree that my answer to Saeed, as well as all of my posts on this thread and all the others in which I have participated, is my opinion. Nothing more!

Not really sure what you mean when you say, "Good luck with your money". Like I said, I don't participate in SCI, NRA, NAHC or any other hunting related organization for pay. I'm a volunteer on the local chapter level. Not a National level bigwig. Don't intend to be one for that matter.

I participate with SCI on the local chapter level because I believe in the mission statement of working on behalf of hunters' interests. In addition, I find that the club puts me in touch with hunters that are not limited to the Whitetailed Deer and Turkey hunts. Not that there is anything wrong with that crowd, but I like to go on Safari with a few buddies some time. I've done quite a few hunts by myself and find that it is usually more fun to share camp with other friends. You will probably not accept that, but it is the extent of my interest within the club. I can assure you, I have NO political motivations other than to do what I can to stop politicians from taking away our hunting and gun rights!

Listen Miko, I'm not into the pissing contests. The only reason I responded to this thread is that I am the guy that solicits the hunt donations for our local chapter so it applied to me in a limited manner. I wanted to go on record that we encourage donations so that we can provide value to the members and guests and in return, I discount or comp the booth prices to the outfitters. Depending on the value of the donation, we sometimes also pay his expenses up to and including hotels and per diem. While I can't fix everything that may or may not go wrong with a hunt that has been purchased in our auctions, our chapter tries to make things right if we can. That's what our chapter does. Can't vouch for others or National.

An example of this is that we had an outfitter that donated hunts over a 4 year period. All hunters that purchased the hunts were satisfied and some even went back and took friends and family. Then, this past year, they went bankrupt with no notice to anyone. They weren't allowed to exhibit this year as we are still trying to work out them honoring the previous years donation. At this point, it isn't resolved but we are working on it. Short of me pulling out my check book and personally refunding the guy's money, I'm not sure what you would expect of me other than to continue trying to pursue the issue through the proper channels. This outfitter had a spotless record over the previous 4 years with us. If I were a booking agent and had received a commission for the hunt, I would personally refund the money. But I'm not an agent and I didn't receive any money personally for the hunt so at this time, I'll continue working through the process. If it comes down to it and can't be resolved any other way, I along with a few others I've spoken to within the chapter, probably will write the guy a check. But we aren't to that point yet.

My point is that I think most guys who volunteer their time and energy are working in good faith for SCI and are not "Wankers" as referred to in another post in this thread. Human nature is that sometimes things happen and neither I nor the other chapter members should be responsible personally for whatever business issues this outfitter had that caused him to fall on bad times. Luckily, we made a little money on our fundraiser this year. As such, if the outfitter in question doesn't make it right, the chapter will probably take care of him, not withstanding the disclaimer in the auction rules. Had this happened last year, I would not have been able to make that statement. Despite our best efforts, last year's fundraiser lost money. As much as anything, that is probably what got me to respond to this thread. I see guys making comments that suggest SCI fundraising events magically make the club flush with cash at the outfitters and hunters expense when in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. People were just not taking the big trips due to the economy.

I think maybe you and I are disagreement due to you speaking of SCI National and I am speaking of a Local Chapter. We are both hunters and I suspect that we have more common ground in our opinions than not. Just because we disagree on this one doesn't mean we won't find common ground on other discussions.

Todd,
First I thank you for the volunteer work you do, seriously.
I don't want to get into a pissing contest either and I agree we probably share many of the same interests. I respect your opinion but I tend to agree with Saeed's last post.

Saeed,
Very well explained, Thank you

I will rest now on this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
SCI DOES help hunters, there is no question about that.

But, I see that as time goes, they have gravitated to a bunch of "mine is bigger than yours", especially the higher ups in SCI.

This has become the holy grail, forgetting the whole idea of actually hunting and conservation on the way.

Many of the higher ups in SCI do not care about conservation, or any game laws, as long as they can get their name higher than others in "book".

How many of past SCI have been proved to have done illegal things?

Also, their "Donations" and other nickle-dime exhibitors to the extent of extortion - I am not going into details, as I am sure one of the exhbitors can tell us his charges for power, Internet etc.

How long did it take SCI to act and get onto the rhino poaching fiasco, and their total support for Out of Africa despite all the evidence?

Then it transpired that the man behind all this is elected president?

Without question SCI has it's politics, as does every organization. I do not know the background of the OOA issue and admit is is concerning but once again I cannot allow it to overshadow all the good our organization does - I view it as an area we need to improve..

"Mine is bigger than yours"? What is wrong with that? It is an area of competition that many enjoy.. No where is that more prevalent than in the Whitetail deer industry! You see much more unethical and illegal activities surrounding big whitetail racks than any other species - and they are doing it for profit! At least SCI record book is mainly for personal satisfaction and achievement.

I do not believe SCI does "nickel and dime" the exhibitors - the venue does! We have the same issue at our chapter event: We get nailed for every outlet we need, every internet connection, have to pay a nurse and off duty policeman and cannot even bring in our own lunch on premise to each while we setup - violates the union contract... and... the fees often get passed on the exhibitor..

It's easy to criticize - much more difficult to get involved...

quote:

Originally posted by Scott Powell:


It's easy to criticize - much more difficult to get involved...

True, that!

The fees booths, Electricity, Lights, Internet connections) I have seen on other people's paperwork for the SCI show are the same as any show, Shot Show for example.

The Union contracts certainly tie up a fair amount of the $$$$ for exhibitions.

.

They beat us up bad every year! Part of the price of moving to a large venue I guess...

quote:

It cost our chapter close to $100,000 to put on the fundraiser event. We purchase guns, ATVs, etc. to auction. Many of these are sold at prices that don't cover our expenses. We spend a large sum on purchasing Billboard ads for 2 to 3 months prior to the expo. Etc, Etc..... Are we expected to do this as a public service and eat the 100 grand?

If the North Texas chapter of SCI is spending so much money on items that don't even cover costs the night of the banquet, than it seems unlikely the main purpose of the event is to raise money for conservation.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by llamapacker:


If the North Texas chapter of SCI is spending so much money on items that don't even cover costs the night of the banquet, than it seems unlikely the main purpose of the event is to raise money for conservation.
Bill

Well, there is a cost of doing business for the Chapter just as there is a cost to the outfitters. For example, we have to plan on how many meals to provide for the dinner, advertising (Billboards, etc.) to promote the event and get customers into the venue so that the efforts of the exhibitors who participate are not in vain, guns, art, etc. for the auction.... I could go on and on. We have to commit to the number of meals approximately 2 weeks prior to the banquet. History shows that most people who RSVP do so in the last couple of days. Sometimes we guess well, and some times, the numbers just don't show up. There is also the costs of renting the venue itself.

Also, we have no idea how much the hunts and other items will sell for during the auction. In years where the economy is doing well, they sell for higher $ amounts. The inverse is true as well. This year, we made money as opposed to last year by cutting down on expenses and modifying the items available for auction. My opinion is that the quality of experience for the members and guests was not up to par with past years. But adjustments had to be made in order to be successful.

Bill, as an example, if we purchase a rifle for auction at $400 and it sells for $250, we eat the $150. If we expect 500 people for the dinner and 400 show up, we eat the loss, no pun intended. Last year, just as the auction began, a major thunderstorm hit the local area and the convention hall lost electricity. The back up generator was not capable of powering the PA system so the auctioneers used a bull horn. There is no telling how much of a loss the auction suffered because people had a hard time hearing what the current bid was. Enough of these will put you into the red pretty fast.

But please tell me how that alters the main purpose of the event into something other than trying to raise money for conservation? Just like the previous post, it is easy to criticize but much harder to participate. Again, that is why I posted on this thread in the first place. There are a lot of folks making remarks that don't hold water. It seems that some folks believe that the gross receipts for the event are all available for conservation efforts without paying expenses.

quote:

Originally posted by miko:
Todd,
First I thank you for the volunteer work you do, seriously.
I don't want to get into a pissing contest either and I agree we probably share many of the same interests. I respect your opinion but I tend to agree with Saeed's last post.

Saeed,
Very well explained, Thank you

I will rest now on this thread.

Miko, I respect your opinion as well. Cheers!

Todd