Trax,

Just how many elephant have you shot personally?

Culling with a small bore works, but you don't take marginal shots.

I have no doubt that a 7 mm or a milspec .308 will brain an elephant when everything goes right. Ms. Selby was guided by one of the best, who knew she would do exactly what he said- and as she lived there, they could afford to walk away from a suboptimal shot opportunity.

The need for something with a bit more penetration and reliable performance occurs when things are not all perfect. With all due respect to Bell, most of the competent elephant hunters of yesteryear all took a larger caliber gun as they knew that a bit more margin would not hurt them.

As far as plains game, I will agree a heavy for caliber 7mm bullet works just fine as long as you don't ask for something unreasonable... but as someone who has been there and done that, in the heat of the moment most of us take a shot that in a clear moment of thought we would say is not quite there.

Shoot a couple buff, elephant, a cat or two and then come back and say that there is no need to use an adequate caliber rifle.

You remind me of some folks that I trained with years ago... theoretically it works fine. It took some major mishaps for them to realize that the real world ain't the same as a book.

Butler,
I regularly hear the same old egotistical recreational hunter know all bullshit on AR,
cause some people have shot half a dozen elepants (or in many cases less), they seem to know fcking everything.

and it doesn't even have to be 7mm as the subject,
just take pro.ivory hunter Manners and his 1000 ele kills with his favoured .375HH, or the effectiveness
of Saeed and his speedy .375cal dropping hundreds of head of DG,
... but relative novices on AR will adamantly insist that they were/are both undergunned for the job.

Ive seem stupid comments by guides/PHs like;

" even the modern load .375 is at best marginal for large game'

however substancial cumulative knowledge from extensively experienced & skilled shot people over the decades indicates quite the opposite.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Butler,
is the same old egotistical recreational hunter know all bullshit on AR,
cause some people have shot half a dozen elepants or in many cases less, they seem know fcking everything.

.

I would venture to say that even someone who has taken only three or four elephant and a few cape buffalo would perhaps know a little more than someone who has only read about Africa in FIELD and STREAM!

.................................................................... .............

m37,
you can listen and take advice from people to have shot 3 or 4 DG
I prefer to listen to people who have experience shooting several hundred or in excess of a thousand.
the choice is yours entirely.

the 'single digit DG club' on AR and the way they 'advise' is just hilarious.

Selby who guided Africa for 53 full seasons took client onto DG with 7mm and .375HH,
now a few ego filled types on AR who go to Africa from time to time,when they can get away from the office job
seem to know more about cartridge effectiveness & cartridge recommendation.

There are even know-it-all-clowns on AR who claim H.Selby was undergunned with his .416 as a PH.
ignoring the fact that 40+ yrs of using it in Africa to great effect indicates he wasn't!
...but as such some hunters on AR know better cause they been to Africa a few times....

Where would all those recreational hunter egos expand themselves if it was not for AR.

Actually, that is an improvement... At least now its not the 7x57 is the be all and end all of african shooting... And that 145gr .30 "FN" bullets are the choice of elephant cullers...

I would ask that you search my posts here. I don't think I ever said that the .375 is inadequate for DG, rather the opposite. You need to realize that a PH's opinion on what gun you should use is based on his experience with you as well as the capability of the gun.

Obviously, Mr. Selby had issues with some of his "dudes" coming over with big bore rifles who had never shot them. For them, using a gun they were familiar and comfortable with (like their deer gun) that met the minimums would be his choice.

In fact, I did say to the OP that I would think the 7mm STW would be fine on eland barring stupid shot placement, although I think the 140gr bullet a bit light.

Butler,
i was not specifically refering to you regards the comments of claimed Ineffectiveness of .375,
but theres no pleasing some, since people on AR have also said Selby was undergunned /disadvantaged through his career with his .416...WTF?
of course such comments come from know it all recreational hunters who only visit Africa for brief periods
who choose to ignore Selby own high praise for .416 after 40+ yrs in the field with it.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

Obviously, Mr. Selby had issues with some of his "dudes" coming over with big bore rifles who had never shot them.

It was also about people who could not shoot them even after some practice,
since Selby clearly stated it takes a lot of practice to shoot heavy recoiling rifles/doubles well.
He and other experienced PHs found clients killed quicker and cleaner with the more accurate shot placement from the lower recoiling .375

the problem of people who cannot manage handle their magnum recoil, thus detrimentally effecting their marksmanship in the field,
is very much still alive throughout the hunting world.,,bigger bore size & impressive muzzle energy don't mean jckSht if one can't hit
the required mark.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:


Do you seriously think that a 7 mm STW will brain an elephant ?

Morten

have you ever used a Win. 7mm-160 FS bullet?...I very much doubt the FAilsafes made it to Norway.

similarly, Just ask Gerard of GSC how effective 30cal 160gnHV bullet is at braining elephant.

a high vel. 160FS or 160HV at close range, each become a high weight retention/high vel. FN solid.

just keep in mind SA parks quite effectively use 145gn FN solids to brain their elephants.
But I guess they should wait for advice from you in Norway to know what works...
but then again your the naive guy who says the highly capable STW is only good for springbuck in Africa.....good grief.


I always wonder why Mr.Selby had the confidence to successfully guide his 14yo daughter onto bull ele with her using the old 7x57-175 solid,
yet most of todays recreational hunter folks 'who claim to know better' would feel totally inept and inadequate with such, not because it does not actually work,
but because their egos find it hard to acknowledge.....Theres clearly something mentally lacking in todays PHs and hunters.

I am sorry to inform you Mr Trax that Failsafe from Whinchester made it to Norway However, Whinchester do not sell much ammo here. Federal, Hornady and Remington are the most popular brands from US plus Lapua, Sako, Barnes, S & B, RWS and of course Norma and a few others.

Morten

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
The STW has nothing to do in Africa unless you are hunting Springbucks at 300-400 yeards.

I would confidently take a 7mmSTW with 160NF or 175NP - for just about any medium or large game
anywhere in the world....and its a real shame they don't make the tough high penetrating 7mm-160 Failsafe anymore... :thumb down:
Its the kind of versatile modern day bullet one could use in STW to down elk at 500yd with, and quite capably brain an elephant at 15yd with.

Do you seriously think that a 7 mm STW will brain an elephant ?

Morten

consider the source, Morten you mean you wouldn't risk your life braining an elephant with a 7mm expanding bullett???

Correct ! I do not think I will go elephant hunting with a 7 mm expanding bullet ! Mr Trax would probably, but I would not !

Morten

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
m37,
you can listen and take advice from people to have shot 3 or 4 DG
I prefer to listen to people who have experience shooting several hundred or in excess of a thousand.
the choice is yours entirely.

the 'single digit DG club' on AR and the way they 'advise' is just hilarious.

Selby who guided Africa for 53 full seasons took client onto DG with 7mm and .375HH,
now a few ego filled types on AR who go to Africa from time to time,when they can get away from the office job
seem to know more about cartridge effectiveness & cartridge recommendation.

There are even know-it-all-clowns on AR who claim H.Selby was undergunned with his .416 as a PH.
ignoring the fact that 40+ yrs of using it in Africa to great effect indicates he wasn't!
...but as such some hunters on AR know better cause they been to Africa a few times....

Where would all those recreational hunter egos expand themselves if it was not for AR.

it didn't take long for this discussion to go south thanks to Trixie. the bell or Selby citation eventually materializes. at least he is predictable

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

Obviously, Mr. Selby had issues with some of his "dudes" coming over with big bore rifles who had never shot them.

It was also about people who could not shoot them even after some practice,
since Selby clearly stated it takes a lot of practice to shoot heavy recoiling rifles/doubles well.
He and other experienced PHs found clients killed quicker and cleaner with the more accurate shot placement from the lower recoiling .375

the problem of people who cannot manage handle their magnum recoil, thus detrimentally effecting their marksmanship in the field,
is very much still alive throughout the hunting world.,,bigger bore size & impressive muzzle energy don't mean jckSht if one can't hit
the required mark.

On the bold print above, I must agree! It makes little difference the size and speed of a bullet if it doesn't hit where it will kill efficiently. The fact that the client hunter is using a big bore rifle doesn't automatically mean he doesn't know how to shoot it. You simply assume that every client would be better off shooting a rifle like a 7x57mm simply BECAUSE he is a client.

The fact that Bell and some of the other old time hunters didn't trust clients with big bore rifles was sometimes misplaced. I will offer myself as example! I have been shooting big bore rifle most of my 78 years of life. At the age of six years I was shooting a single barreled 12 ga shotgun, and a lever action 30-30. By the age of 10 yrs I had a 30-06, and at the age of 18 I had a Mauser .375H&H rifle. Then at age 21 I bought my first double rifle, but it was a 9.3X74R and shortly there after I bought a mod 70 Win 458 Win Mag, and there after my doubles got bigger as the years passed, the .577NE being the largest, but it was too heavy to carry all day, so I backed up to a 450NE double from that to a 500NE then settled on a 470NE.

The fact is I hunted everything with these big rifles over many years so I don't think you would want to stand at anything under 300 yds thinking I couldn't hit you with every shot with any of those rifles.

What I'm trying to get across to you is, simply because a client is on his first or even his fifteenth time doesn't mean he is over gunned simply because he is using a .450 to 500 rifle. It is well known that Bell was recoil shy, but in the days he was hunting the big bore of that day were not as effective as they are today because of the poorly designed bullets and the extreme size of some of the rifle need for elephant, and it was found the the solid military bullets if placed properly worked better. That is not the case today. We have big bore bullets today that track in a straight line to shoot the length of a buffalo from any angle, or whizz right through an elephants head like a hot knife through butter. You seem to assume that the people here cannot shoot their big bore rifle.

The fact that they have not used that rifle on more than a few elephant means nothing in regard to the shooter's ability to shoot his big bore rifle. He may have been shooting that rifle for years. I have no problem placing three or four quick shots from my 470NE double in a tight group at up to 100 yds and my buffalo, or anything else I've hunted with a big bore,I've shot a lot of wild boar with the 470, not needed but they have died very quickly without any chase. Shooting deer and wild boar with the 470NE double is very good practice for live moving targets.

It is true if a client can't shoot his rifle well he will wound, but the fact that he is on his first African hunt doesn't mean he can't shoot his rifle!

.................................................................. from now on I will follow my own advice in that regard!