Just a question for the recent travelers, how is the new Airbus that SAA are using?

Mike

If you are not skinny the seats are, if possible, even more uncomfortable than the Boeing. I had lost a substantial amount of weight since my last flight on the Boeing, and was looking forward to "fitting" properly on this year's flight, but it was not to be. THe seats feel "slightly" narrower than the Boeing. Also, like the Boeing, the headphone outlets are on the inside part of the arm of the seat, so the headphone jack presses into the side of your leg.

Due to reduced carry-on room don't try to bring anything onto the plane other than your one piece carry-on bag in Joburg. They are strictly enforcing this rule, and have a person at the entrance to the plane screening for this. They then take any other items, give you a baggage claim number, and place them in the baggage area. They must be claimed with your regular bags back in the states.

One other thing that may or may not be related to the Airbus, my flights were late arriving in both directions (nearly 45 minutes going, and about half an hour on the return). I don't know if the Airbus is more prone to weather delays, or if they were just trying to conserve fuel, etc, but the fact is that you can not count on arriving on time. Do not attempt to make a tight connection in Joburg if you can possibly avoid it.

Jim

The A-340 is nearly 100MPH SLOWER than a B-747 I suspect on a 14 hour fight that could add up huh?. We call it the frog in the airline industry because it takes two hops and it croaks...

It's also known as the A-180 because it's always turning around and coming back to the gate for repairs.

If it ain't Boeing I ain't going.....(Well just kidding but it sounded good..)

I just did a feasability study on replacing our 747's with Airbus. It doesn't make sense anywhere but in the lease and financing side. The French just about give these things away.

Well, I was going to do a new thread on this but since you got the ball rolling:

This week we got back from our third trip to RSA. The first two trips were on SAA B-747's, this one was on the new A340-600.

The first 747 trip was in 1998 and our family, all experienced travelers, commented that the seating in coach was the most comfortable we had ever experienced. The seats were adequately wide, lots of leg room, and lots of room near the galleys to stand up and talk. Cabin aisles were adequate. The food was good and the flight attendants were friendly. The next 747 trip was in 2000 and the comfort level was equal, although the food quality and friendliness of the F/A's seemed to have declined a bit.

Our trip this month on the A340-600 can only be described as "excruciating". The seats and aisles seemed narrower, and the legroom particularly seemed tight. The galleys are tiny and even standing by the exit only allows room for two adults, until the F/A's shooed us away with the warning that "U.S. regulations prohibit you from standing near the doors." Hmmm, never heard of that one before, and on the return trip there was no problem. The A340-600 has only half as many sound channels as the 747, and the video systems seemed to have a mind of their own on both flights.

The attitude of the flight attendants has declined considerably in six years. The ones we had this month were not nasty, but they acted like robots- little or no eye contact, absolutely no conversation except what was needed to get the job done. We could take water or juice from the trays in the galley without being reprimanded but they never encouraged it. I don't think this was a racial thing, they mostly treated the black passengers just like us whitebread.

One thing that has not changed is SAA reservations- they are just as dumb as before. The website is difficult for me to use, and phone calls often got distinctly wrong information on things like "what days does the flight from JNB to ATL make a stop in Cape Town?" The website has firearms information about flying within RSA, but virtually nothing about foreign flights. When I called reservations in the U.S for details, the lady said that I could only bring two handguns in a single case, she had no information whatever about rifles and shotguns. Best to use a good travel agent and get your gun info from this Forum.

Welcome to the New South Africa. For our next trip, we will probably take United to Frankfurt and Lufthansa down to Jo'burg.

Is there also less leg room than on a 747?

Luckily I am a small guy and don't have the problems with to little space

I just talked to Barb at International Journeys and she says there have been several articles in RSA newspapers complaining about the Airbus. I guess we are stuck with it unless you travel through Europe. Who still has Boeing?

Mike

Gents,

The thing to remember here this is not an "airbus ~v~boeing" issue as such, but rather its down to what SAA specified when they ordered there new fleet. Airbus (as will other aircraft makers) allow the the Airline to specify exactly how many seats they get and therefore their spacing. The Airline also get to choose other things that impact on your comfort such the design of the seat and the in plane entertainment.

The bottom line is that SAA has specified flying cattle trucks to maximise profits and it also sounds as if their standards in crew training has fallen also...

Regards,

Pete

I agree somewhat Pete. However, if what has already been posted is true, it is 100mph slower than the 747 and is a smaller plane overall.

Mike

As it stands now there is very little the single person complaining about the jets and the service can do to fix this.

There is a solution available to us. Try writing a letter to the agency who sold you the ticket, and arranged your flights. I have spoken to Elaine at African Odyessy and she has heard a number of complaints as well. Her suggestion is that each person write a letter or Email to their travel arranger and then they can have some "firepower" to deal with SAA.

She also mentioned that the service improvement was noticable when you ask for the name of the rude or otherwise unhelpful flight attendant. I too have seen this change in additute when I have asked the name of a poor flight "service person". The service problems are not consistant on all flights but they do have plenty of problems with the new airbus regarding the comfort level, room, and video equipment. Don't hesitate to write a letter suggesting that you will fly an alternate route on your next trip.

The truth is the flights on SAA from Atlanta to Joburg are the fastest and most realistic flights there are for Americans. Atlanta airport and SAA are very gun and hunter friendly, there are no overseas connections to deal with. If you fly before May first it's a non-stop flight. The seats in coach and the leg room in coach are not enough different from one airline to the next to make that much difference. I fly every week on many different airlines and I know that the seating is very close from one carrier or model of aircraft to the next. Unless you fly business or first class the coach comfort level is not going to be a whole lot different.

I have had isle, window and bulk head seats. Some are better then others but all seem to have a draw back. The Isle seat in the bulkhead row allows people to step on your feet and trip over your feet when your sleeping. The window seat in the 747 bulkhead has the slide built into the door so you can only stretch one leg! There is not much realistic difference from one model to the next. On my last two SAA flights using 747's the personal Video equipment at each seat was non-functional in at least 30% of the seats, maybe closer to half. They announced a "reboot" of the whole system several times during the flight as they tried to figure out what the problems were. We also had a toilet leak upstairs that was leaking on all the people in first class seated downstairs. This was also on a 747.

So lets keep this in perspective regarding aircraft problems and try to realize that until another carrier has a gun friendly service from somplace in the USA direct to Joburg we have to live with SAA. Even though they may have indifferent flight service people who do act like robots and almost never offer anything on their own. I have never had one of my hunters or myself lose or have a gun delayed when using them. They may not be the most "people friendly" airline but they are without a doubt the most "gun friendly" airline I have ever used. The solution to the problems we are having can be dealt with in bulk by writing a letter about your feelings to the person who arranged your flights. They( travel agents) have much more "pull" with SAA then you and do. When they present a stack of complaint letters it will mean something to the management and stockholders of SAA.

Pete is right, with the possible exception of galley size- that might be a "take it or leave it" situation. The galleys on the United B-777's are larger, and so is the area between the galley and the adjacent exit door. Well, the speed difference is also a fixed item. Doesn't make much difference on a short flight but really adds up on the long hauls.

The ironic part is that several people told me that the A-340's are often weight restricted on the long flights and can't fill up the cattle-car seating.

Mike,

I won't argue with that as I really don't know the aircrafts spec....regardless of the size, SAA does not have to cram the seats in..The whole issue is down to the bean counters..the choice of plane and how it is worked out is not always obvious as there are somany factors including kick backs to certain key people I would guess espeicaly as this is Africa we are talking about...

The issue surrounding the planes being late and poor turn round might also be attribuatable to either poorer training or simply a cut back in ground crew...

My gut feeling is what we are seeing is a lowering of general standards by SAA and we the customers are suffering for it!
Glad to hear people are factoring in who's plane is most comfortable, as voting with your visa card will be the only way to get SAA's attention....

Regards,

Pete

A guy sitting at an airport bar in Atlanta noticed a beautiful young woman sitting next to him. He thought to himself, "Wow, she's so gorgeous she must be a flight attendant. But which airline does she work for?"
Hoping to pick her up, he leaned towards her and uttered the Delta slogan: "Love to fly and it shows?"

She gave him a blank, confused stare and he immediately thought to himself, "Guess she doesn't work for Delta."

A moment later, another slogan popped into his head. He leaned towards her again, "Something special in the air?"

She gave him the same blank look.

He mentally kicked himself, and scratched American Airlines off the list.

Next he tried the United slogan: "I would really love to fly your friendly skies?"

This time the woman turned on him, "What the f*ck do you want?"

The man smiled, then slumped back in his chair, and said... "Ahhh, South African Airways!!!!"

As you might have guessed, I do not believe in just sucking it in. Without grumbling about the flight, nothing will ever change. It sucks to begin with, and more uncomfortable conditions just makes me want to go the more.

Some details about the "New" Business Class Seat
73" pitch
2x2x2 seat configuration
Articulating arm rest offers more space
24" wide bed - one of the widest in the industry
Personal reading light with variable settings
Ultra-modern shell, with privacy screen
Lumbar massage
Large, 1-piece tray table, and individual cocktail tables
A state-of-the-art coat hook
110 v AC PC Power - interfaces with a normal European 2-pin power plug


Three automatic settings of Upright, Cradle and Bed with variable settings for leg rest, seat height, lumbar support and back rest.


What else is different with the "New" Business Class ?

Restaurant in the Sky
The Service on demand Menu will consist of 2 light choices (a salad and/or a starter), 4 hot selections, 1 dessert, and a cheese platter
A selection of top South African wines, boutique French Champagnes and a variety of hot and cold beverages
Design of menus - a South African theme features strongly
Menus are changed every three months
New linen, crockery, cutlery, and glassware
New Delsey unisex amenity kit
Duvet and large pillow

Mbogo375,

I'm with you, I'd gladly pay a few hundred bucks more for added seat room. I'm over 6 feet tall with bad back problems, the more room the better. The airbus sounded like a down-grade the moment I heard the name. I cringe at the word bus, reminds me of those crummy, cramped school buses from grade school.

Sevens

Good website with info about air travel: Skytrax



And a really specialized airline Atlantic





_________________________________________________________



Ouch! We'll avoid SAA from now on

April 2, 2004



We had the misfortune to fly our annual business trip to Frankfurt aboard the pride of SAA's new fleet. It is our company policy to fly economy and over the past 40 years I have made hundreds of flights worldwide with my staff.



Passenger complaints abounded. The purser was hounded by dissatisfied passengers who no doubt experienced the discomforts as we did. I made many observations:





The seating configuration of 2.4.2 is uncomfortable and congested.





Leg room is inadequate.





Every second seat has restricted movement due to the placing of a large box under the front seat. This, we believe, is to house the personalised entertainment system. You can only sit with one leg extended.





Ergonomics have been abandoned for economy - the seating is hard and has a lot of exposed hard metal edges.





Arm-rests have recessed cavities to access sound controls and are very uncomfortable. We filled the recesses with balls of rolled paper to achieve a semi comfortable flat surface on which to rest our arms.





Seats don't recline as far back as those of a Boeing, nor does the back-rest offer equivalent support.





The seating configuration has resulted in very narrow aisles - it's difficult to pass fellow passengers let alone avoid the refreshment carts. Passengers on aisles complain of arms and legs being bumped.





The galley areas are small and difficult to work in ... staff comments.





Overhead lockers seem smaller and storage space is a problem.





Toilet numbers have been reduced per passenger conveyed - queues congregate outside toilets. One toilet was out of order.





Toilet/wash-basin design is hardly ergonomic. It's very difficult to access a basin with one's face without dripping water all over the floor. It's design is to accommodate short people, and necessitates wiping up floors after moderate use.





My observations are based on thousands of flights over the years. The bad flights - few stand out. This one was, however, the worst I or my staff have experienced.



We are loyal SAA passengers, but even as SAA Voyager members, we would rather have sacrificed voyager miles for comfort on an alternate carrier.



Airbuses are not unfamiliar to me. They are adequate substitutes for Boeing, but the latest con-figuration in economy class is an absolute disaster. Many passengers, including ourselves, will obviously avoid booking SAA where alternative comfortable economy facilities are available.



The Airbus A340-600 is a very economy class passenger-unfriendly aircraft.



Robert Slavin

Johannesburg







SAA responds: SAA has taken a strategic decision in offering the leg room it currently has on its aircraft in order to match its major competitors in the markets it serves.



This not only maintains SAA's competitiveness but also follows a global industry standard. Compared to airlines across the world, taking into account SAA's major competitors flying into South Africa, one finds they all follow the same seat pitch in economy, which is 31 inches (78,74cm).

As the airline industry developed primarily in the United States, seat pitches are measured in inches. This standard is not compulsory and very slight variations, if any, will be found. Our major competitors into South Africa all offer a 31-inch seat pitch, while one or two offer a 32-inch pitch maximum.



In business and first class, a similar strategy is adopted, with competition offering a lie-flat seat. By the end of May, SAA will have fitted its entire Airbus fleet with a complete lie-flat product in the premium section as well as in the 747-400.



Rich Mkhondo

Executive manager

Corporate communications, SAA



__________________________________________________________



SAA keeps leg-room complaints on hold as it awaits feedback



Aviation April 18, 2004



By Roger Makings





South African Airways has no immediate plans to change the configuration of the seats in its new Airbus aircraft despite a slew of complaints.



Readers of a daily newspaper mounted a campaign against "lack of space" for passengers in the economy class of the Airbus A340-600s, saying they preferred the seats on the older Boeing 747s.





Among their gripes were that the seats were too hard and that they had a lot of "exposed hard metal edges". Aisle space was also said to be restricted.





One reader complained of a "large box" under every second row of seats, which meant that only one leg could be extended.





SAA's vice-president for communications, JJ Tabane, said this week that the airline was monitoring passenger feedback and would, in time, "act accordingly" if necessary.





"The aircraft are a new product and it will take time to find out passengers' response to the product," he said.





Of the boxes under seats in every second row - they are about half the size of a carry-on bag - Tabane said these were there to provide a superior in-flight entertainment system in economy class.





The system allowed each passenger his or her own screen and choice of programme. Otherwise, passengers would be forced to watch a single show on large, roof-mounted screens, he said.





He agreed that this "option comes at a price in leg-room for some passengers".





With regard to seat pitch, he said SAA matched that of most major carriers, 81cm or 79cm, and that the seats in the Boeing 747 were no bigger than those of the Airbus.





Tabane said there were no plans to change the seats or configuration of the Airbuses which had yet to be delivered.





"We need to balance the issue of a superior entertainment system and leg-room. To do this we are constantly getting feedback from our passengers through call centres and letters. Once a clear picture emerges, we will take action if necessary."





However, Virgin Atlantic, which also operates A340-600s, said it had a comparable entertainment system. It also needed boxes under seats but this did not impinge on leg-room. "We have only a few boxes in economy, and they do not affect leg-room," said Virgin spokesman Tracey Meaker. Passengers had not complained about space in economy.





Meanwhile, SAA will drop Atlanta in the US as a destination after the airline joins the Star Alliance later this year.





SAA chief executive Andr� Viljoen says the carrier will instead fly to Washington, where passengers will be able to connect with United Airlines, SAA's new partner in the US.





Previously passengers joined Delta Air Lines in Atlanta to fly to other destinations in the US.





Viljoen says United Airlines has strong connections to the popular US West Coast destinations of Los Angeles and San Francisco, among others.





SAA will continue to fly to New York's JFK Airport.





The main attraction at Star is the corporate contracts that the alliance, headed by Lufthansa, has secured from major companies in the UK and Europe.





"These contracts not only bring extra passengers but also improve our yield.





"The passengers, both leisure and corporate travellers, pay in euros and sterling and fly the premium classes, where we make our profits," according to Viljoen.





Under the Star agreement, SAA will keep its partnership with Cathay Pacific, a oneworld member, but will also team up with Star member Singapore Airlines, which has a wide network in Asia and direct access to China.





The benefit to passengers, says Viljoen, is easy access to 127 countries and 680 airports worldwide through 15 airlines.





"Our passengers will also earn frequent-flyer miles on all these carriers and have many more destinations to which they can burn off those miles," he says.





Premium-class passengers will have entry to the 580 Star Alliance lounges around the world and benefit from the cheaper "add-on" fares rather than be subjected to full-fare prices for connections.





Viljoen says besides the extra revenue from increased load factors, there are significant cost savings to be had in joint fuel purchases, insurance, equipment, spares and training as well as access to Star's global technology system.





SAA has about 80 offices and general sales agents around the world, nearly half of which could be rationalised by using Star offices instead.

________________________________________________________







Washington, D.C. instead of Atlanta?







The seat pitch on the 747 was 32" downstairs (seat pitch on the upper deck of the 747 was 34"), the Airbus is less at 31".



SEAT PITCH:

This is the distance between a row of seats - the measurement from the same position on two seats, one behind the other - it is NOT the legroom area as some believe. (For example, the back face of the seat in front of you, measured to the same point on the back face of the seat you are sitting in).

just for grins.....100 mph slower amounts to a little over three hours greater flight time from Atlanta to J'berg

Gimme back my Boeing 747!!!

Oh yuck. Not what I wanted to hear!

It sounds like the SAA cities in the U.S. will be New York and Washington D.C., by the end of this year.

I have avoided New York because I bring a pistol in my luggage and have heard too many horror stories of how that plays in the Big Apple, despite a Federal law that is supposed to protect the traveler.

Does anyone know what it is like to transit Dulles Airport with a handgun? I think it is outside the D.C. city limits and in Virginia, so perhaps things are reasonable. Atlanta is certainly O.K. in that regard.

I wish I had my own private jet.

"Does anyone know what it is like to transit Dulles Airport with a handgun?"



No but I can tell you this about Dulles. Expect delays. Dulles is the worst major terminal area I fly into. These boys move traffic just like you'd expect a bunch of Washington fed boys to do. Slow and ineffcient.And that's when the weather is good.



SAA sounds like they are due a little non-stop copmetition. I bet that'd set things straight in big hurry. Hmmmmmmm...



Any of you guys want to go in on a couple of B-777ER's We'll call it Freedom Safari Air. It'll be the most user friendly hunting airline in the world. Lots of leg room We'll operate daily service from say Mia to JNB during the peak with feeder service to Maun, Harare, Dar es Salam and a few others.



No frills BYOB but the flight attendants will be friendly, good looking and if they get bitchy even once it's straight up to my office for a spanking. And the food will be good. And we'll have big old chillers for all the beer you can bring.And we'll have those laser shooting gallery things like they have at SCI in Reno so you can practice braining your elephant all the way to Africa. Big screens right at every bulk head. Rifles at the middle end and begining of every section.



I think I've just come up with the next South West Airlines idea lets get some financing and do this thing!!!

So economy is really bad on the Airbus but business class is better than the norm?

It�s people in economy that keep the airlines going�as we make up the bulk of the "cattle" being transported.

But the people in business and first class get the advantages...

I vote we get a Boeing Business Jet (BBJ 2)!!


Hey BF now your talking. The other cool one would be a tricked out 757. Hey man all it would take is you know 80-90 mill to get it off the ground.. Mere chump change...

Freedom Safari Air

FSA

We could also call it.

F*&^% South African.

First Airbus aircraft flown by a US airline were Eastern Airlines'. They were slow then, they haven't gotten any faster. You know the bean counters are at work when you get passed by a 737. Short trip, who cares? Oceanic, leave the Bus behind. Besides, on US built aircraft you can actually make a full deflection rudder input without losing your ass, er, rudder. Oh, one other thing. Controllers don't like to put a slow jet in front of a fast one in the arrival sequence. Guess who gets turned...

Dan

Pres., TYGC
www.ATC.Observation

SAA's service has declined in the nearly ten years since we began going to RSA. I have flown the Airbus and Boing 777 to Europe recently, as well as the 747. The 747 is the gold standard for A/C in terms of comfort and flight characteristics if it is not set up too close.

About three or four years ago, SAA got the seats so tight customers started to complain. They got more seat room after about a year. I suspicion that if enough hell is raised about it, this too will change. The configuration of A/C is adjustable both for width of seat and foot room. Fortunately, my next flight is via Europe to Tanzania so I will not have to put up with SAA's most recent FUBAR. I hope you all will be vocal, so they will have it fixed by my next trip. Ku-dude

Why did British Airways change their name fro BOAC to BA?

It was known as Better On A Camel .

What does PIA stand for?

Please Inform Allah or Perhaps I Arrive

One other possible problem that I forgot to mention - if there is an adjustable personal air vent on the Airbus like on the Boeing (and almost any other commercial airliner that I have ever been on), I must admit that I was to dimwitted to find it. At one point during the night it got uncomfortably hot on our flight, and I was thankful that I was wearing a light weight short sleeve shirt as I sat there with the sweat dripping off my nose .

I didn't bother asking the non-helpful flight attendants and crew about this, as they had been totally unresponsive to my repeated requests for ANY possible help or information concerning my tight connecting flight schedule (even though we were projected to be over 30 minutes late arriving, and were actually closer to 45 minutes late).

Maybe one of our more experienced Airbus torturees, errr, I mean passengers , can tell us if there is an air vent.

Jim

The flight was the only thing I didn't like about our first trip and now its going to be 2 to 3 hours longer this year

You guys are making an Ambien Rx sound better and better. Making my first overseas flight on 5-19-04 and not looking forward to having my 5'10" 220# carcass "Airbussed".

Rick

Rick, we took Ambien on our trip over last year and will be using it again this. I recomend it.

The enroute time is increased in a frog hopper on that leg by 2 to 2:45 hours however the good news according to SAA is that they will be making fewer stops on Sal Island because the Frog Hopper has more endurance than the Boeing..

Hooray!!!!!

Here's the deal SAA isn't going to get rid of the Bus they are married to that airframe now for quite some time. What we can do is influence their decsion to make the interior a tortuous hell hole..Start writing now and don't stop untill it's fixed.

I am 6'4" and weigh 245 when I'm NOT drinking to much beer.. This is an absoloute cripler of a trip for my ex- rugby player bad kneed body not to mention the poor saps that have to sit next to me. If I hadn't already purcahsed my tickets I'd ride UAL to Frankfurt and Luftansa to JNB.

It's to late for me. But lets get together and force some changes. This is a classic example of bean counters making decsions that are going to effect the bottom line. Of course thses kind of things usually effect the bottom line in the wrong direction. Bean counters never learn!!!lets try and teach them.

mbogo375-
If there is an air vent, I couldn't find it either.

surestrike (and others)-
We did the United to Frankfurt and Lufthansa to Jo'burg thing about three years ago. The total time is longer of course, but you have somewhat more comfortable airplanes and you get a break in Frankfurt. Only problem is that the flights to Frankfurt usually arrive in the morning, and the connection to Johannesburg does not leave until the evening. If you are awake enough to go touring, fine. We have friends there and just spent the day sleeping at their house. German customs had no problem with storing my pistol during the layover; that was before 9-11 and things may have changed.

Oh Great. Just what I didn't want to hear. Poor service, snooty flight attendents and plenty of room - if you're a midget.

I leave in 3 weeks on my first Safari to South Africa. I already knew that the flight from Atlanta to Cape Town was 15 hours and on the return from Joberg to Atlanta is 18 hours 20 minutes BUT I didn't know that it used to be 3 hours less. I am sorry to hear of the - no leg room - issue. I am 6' 5" tall and 220lbs. I am not heavy, for my height but my legs go on forever, lol. I can tell I am going to be very uncomfortable.

Don

BF

No it means that they haven't changed their scheduled departure arrival times. The 747 generally under flew the schedule ATL-JNB and the A-340 has been over flying the schedule by as much as an hour.

The A-340 is a .74-.76 mach cruise airplane that means it cruises at 74 to 76% the speed of sound.

The 747 cruises at .86 to .88 mach. The last time I went down non stop on a 747 the elapsed flight time was 12:58.