Thanks to the internet and the media we now live in a politically correct world, dictated by the Liberal left. It makes no difference to them that one is considered innocent until proven guilty, he can be slain by political correctness, his rights to privacy can be defiled, and his reputation can be ruined..

Its a sad day America, and you better go vote or it will only get worse, those that don't go to the poles have no say in matters of state.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
I'm slightly curious enough to pose the question - If sport hunting is so easy, why are there any lion left in Africa? After all, there are far more hunters each year than lion. So if your "logic" were correct, there would be no lion left.

Seems you have a serious logic disconnect somewhere...

The logic in your original assumption is seriously flawed.
Just a glance at the web.

Zim's lion pop is estimated between 500 and 1600 lions and over a 10 year period 1999-2009 and average of 87 lions were killed per year by sport hunters.

Do you really think that Zim yearly offers 500 or 1600 hunters the opportunity to kill a lion and that only 87 succeed?

Instead you should be looking at hunter success ratios as an indicator how how hard or easy a hunt is.
Glancing, some Zim operators boast a 90% success rate for their lion hunts.
Maybe all their hunters are super skilled and committed? More likely the hunting is very easy.


In my opinion non hunters will support or at least tolerate hunting IF the hunt requires skill and difficulty on the part of the hunter and success isn't virtually guaranteed.

They will not support lazy, unskilled, entitled and pampered hunters flying in for a virtually guaranteed kill. Especially when they brag about it in the public domain and post pictures of their "accomplishments".

quote:

Originally posted by Trophic-Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Lizzy and Doug W, pls research the Bubye Valley Conservancy as an example of the wildlife conservation benefits of a pro-utilization strategy, including conservation of lion. In a very short timeframe - in evolutionary terms - they have hit maximum carrying capacity for lion! They now face some very tough decisions with regards lion management under the advice and recommendation of none other than Oxford University resident research program!

<> <> <>

Trophic-Hunter, thank you so much for this information. I stand behind this kind of hunting as all animals are known by the people who manage it. Also only old lions who have no pride are hunted so it doesn't upset the pride. That is acceptable.

I finally have good information and not the wild west stories. And they are protected against poachers,the local communities are involved,the Chief has also power and respect and a court.
Very good. And here the revenue of the hunters goes direct into conservation and not to governments who pocket this and who don't give it back to conservation, which is naked fact.

Some hunters here say that what happens to the money is not their problem or concern. Which should be....Thank you again.

I know I have upset some people here but I am trying to find out how they think. And that many anti people just have to wait for something like what happened to Cecil and then they have the ammunition they were waiting for. The cynical thing is that the hunter Dr Palmer gave it to them.
If hunters act less like macho's and more concerned the goodwill will be better of the non and anti hunters. You have to agree that in any group of people (including animal organisations) there are assholes who give a group a bad name. I had fall outs with macho females who want to get all the glory of their work with rescue but they did very little. And if I said anything, they turned against me. While I was sacrificing my sleep to bottle feed 3 litters of 10 kittens in total.

Thank you and I will place this video on anti-hunters websites. A big hug...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:


I enjoy and often learn from a legitimate well reasoned debate. That's NOT what's happening here. Lizzy and Doug W are not here to intelligently debate the benefits of hunting vs non-consumptive conservation models. They are trolling for statements that can be taken out of context and used to support their ideologies in the next social media viral attack against hunting ... facts be damned!

Sorry, I didn't know this topic was limited to debating the benefits of hunting vs non-consumptive conservation models. lol


My interest as a avid hunter in the topic is seeing that sport hunting continues.
It won't or will be seriously limited if hunters don't clean up their IMAGE and realize that the general non hunting public will be swayed into the anti hunting camp if they don't.

Many here think the status quo can be continued and that rising opposition can be simply ignored or belittled.
I find that strategy to be shortsighted and foolish.

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:


I enjoy and often learn from a legitimate well reasoned debate. That's NOT what's happening here. Lizzy and Doug W are not here to intelligently debate the benefits of hunting vs non-consumptive conservation models. They are trolling for statements that can be taken out of context and used to support their ideologies in the next social media viral attack against hunting ... facts be damned!

Sorry, I didn't know this topic was limited to debating the benefits of hunting vs non-consumptive conservation models. lol


My interest as a avid hunter in the topic is seeing that sport hunting continues.
It won't or will be seriously limited if hunters don't clean up their IMAGE and realize that the general non hunting public will be swayed into the anti hunting camp if they don't.

Many here think the status quo can be continued and that rising opposition can be simply ignored or belittled.
I find that strategy to be shortsighted and foolish.

Oh so hunters are not going to end the lion even with all the modern weapons and spotlights in their eyes.

Well, that's the first semi-lucid statement that you have made.

In regards to how easy or difficult the hunting is, please regal us with all your knowledge after you have been on a few dozen hunts as an observer. At least by then you will have a moderately informed opinion and maybe, just maybe someone will actually listen to you.

Question - If lion are so predictable, sedentary and easy to track why do they bother putting radio collars on them?

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
I'm slightly curious enough to pose the question - If sport hunting is so easy, why are there any lion left in Africa? After all, there are far more hunters each year than lion. So if your "logic" were correct, there would be no lion left.

Seems you have a serious logic disconnect somewhere...

The logic in your original assumption is seriously flawed.
Just a glance at the web.

Zim's lion pop is estimated between 500 and 1600 lions and over a 10 year period 1999-2009 and average of 87 lions were killed per year by sport hunters.

Do you really think that Zim yearly offers 500 or 1600 hunters the opportunity to kill a lion and that only 87 succeed?

Instead you should be looking at hunter success ratios as an indicator how how hard or easy a hunt is.
Glancing, some Zim operators boast a 90% success rate for their lion hunts.
Maybe all their hunters are super skilled and committed? More likely the hunting is very easy.


In my opinion non hunters will support or at least tolerate hunting IF the hunt requires skill and difficulty on the part of the hunter and success isn't virtually guaranteed.

They will not support lazy, unskilled, entitled and pampered hunters flying in for a virtually guaranteed kill. Especially when they brag about it in the public domain and post pictures of their "accomplishments".

quote:

Originally posted by Lizzy:
If hunters act less like macho's and more concerned the goodwill will be better of the non and anti hunters. You have to agree that in any group of people (including animal organisations) there are assholes who give a group a bad name. I had fall outs with macho females who want to get all the glory of their work with rescue but they did very little. And if I said anything, they turned against me. While I was sacrificing my sleep to bottle feed 3 litters of 10 kittens in total.

Thank you and I will place this video on anti-hunters websites. A big hug...

So it's how hunters act that is at issue here? All perception? What about the facts. Do they not matter? Again, the problem with the anti-hunters is the emotional zealotry they display that is completely irrational, without considering the amount of money hunters spend on these hunts that is used for conservation. I just have trouble wrapping my head around the emotional clinging to "Cecil."

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Oh so hunters are not going to end the lion even with all the modern weapons and spotlights in their eyes.

Well, that's the first semi-lucid statement that you have made.

In regards to how easy or difficult the hunting is, please regal us with all your knowledge after you have been on a few dozen hunts as an observer. At least by then you will have a moderately informed opinion and maybe, just maybe someone will actually listen to you.

Question - If lion are so predictable, sedentary and easy to track why do they bother putting radio collars on them?

Stay focused.
Oh course lions or nothing else will go extinct from properly MANAGED hunting. Where did you get the goofy idea I said or believed that?

A couple of posts up you believed lion hunters outnumbered lions and wanted to leap to a false conclusion.
Now you want to move on to lion predictability and radio collars. Sorry I don't get the connection??

People of average intelligence or better don't require hours or years of an specific activity to determine whether it is hard or difficult.

As a test, do you think skating on slippery ice, in narrow skates while shepherding a small puck with a long wooden stick into a net while other people attempt to prevent you from doing so is easy or hard?

Most people without ever lacing up a skate would believe that to be hard.

And most people who saw a hockey player having success at it 90% of the time would believe either the player is very, very talented or isn't very hard.

As a long time hunter I know high success rates equate to lots of game and more favorable hunting conditions, where even a novice hunter can score.
Conversely difficult hunting, low game numbers and low skills equal little success.

Pick one.
With high success rates either african safari hunters are very, very talented or it is easy.
^ Be honest now.

quote:

Originally posted by Lizzy:

quote:

Originally posted by Trophic-Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Lizzy and Doug W, pls research the Bubye Valley Conservancy as an example of the wildlife conservation benefits of a pro-utilization strategy, including conservation of lion ... ... ...

<> <> <>

Trophic-Hunter, thank you so much for this information. I stand behind this kind of hunting as all animals are known by the people who manage it. Also only old lions who have no pride are hunted so it doesn't upset the pride. That is acceptable.

I finally have good information and not the wild west stories. And they are protected against poachers,the local communities are involved,the Chief has also power and respect and a court.
Very good. And here the revenue of the hunters goes direct into conservation and not to governments who pocket this and who don't give it back to conservation, which is naked fact.

Some hunters here say that what happens to the money is not their problem or concern. Which should be....Thank you again.

I know I have upset some people here but I am trying to find out how they think. And that many anti people just have to wait for something like what happened to Cecil and then they have the ammunition they were waiting for. The cynical thing is that the hunter Dr Palmer gave it to them.

If hunters act less like macho's and more concerned the goodwill will be better of the non and anti hunters. You have to agree that in any group of people (including animal organisations) there are assholes who give a group a bad name. I had fall outs with macho females who want to get all the glory of their work with rescue but they did very little. And if I said anything, they turned against me. While I was sacrificing my sleep to bottle feed 3 litters of 10 kittens in total.

Thank you and I will place this video on anti-hunters websites. A big hug...

I'll highlight your comment because there's so much truth in it Quote: If hunters act less like macho's and more concerned the goodwill will be better of the non and anti hunters.

The Hunting Community and especially the African Hunting Community suffers from an overabundance of not only machismo and false-bravado, but gun-mania, militarism, hard-core right-wing politics, racism to the point of white-supremacy (not uncommon) and lot of other crap that has nothing to do with hunting - and makes it almost inevitable that all hunters will continue to be regarded as ignorant, arrogant, backward, small-minded, dim-witted, red-neck assholes (and I wouldn't be at all surprised if some here might even proudly embrace that description).

What Africa needs is more liberal environmentalists making the transition to hunters (which is hard but not that hard) and let the old-school hunters (as described above) die off and take their self-defeating ideas with them.

See ya.

<> <> <>

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
What does hunting have to do with whether it's easy or hard?

Because for thousands of years "hunting" and to be successful at it required knowledge and skills to find and kill the prey.
Skills and strategies that took time to learn and hone.
In short, it was hard and not everyone had the aptitude, skills and drive to be successful hunter.

With most of these professionally guided "easy" hunts the difficulty, required skills and knowledge are simply purchased from another that has those skills.

So from a traditional viewpoint, the hunter is no longer a hunter but simply a shooter, and really how good a shooter do you have to be with modern equipment, shooting at an animal at close range illuminated and blinded by a spotlight?

Nonsense! The reason most of the hundred or so hunters I know personally, the main reason they book with a Safari company is because it is required by law. The second reason is the logistics of putting together a camp and vehicles is beyond impossible.

Speaking for myself I don't need anyone to help me find a cape buffalo, lion or elephant. Also your disdain for shooting close up, getting that close so very precision shot placement can be made on animals like buffalo, and elephant to make a clean kill so the animal doesn't suffer more than necessary.
Getting that close to these animals takes a hell of a lot of skill, and is damn dangerous. knowledge of the animal you are hunting is the only way this can happen. That knowledge is not learned over night.

I doubt there are more than a hand full of animal rights folks who could get within 1000 yds of a truly wild lion outside a park where these animals are used to seeing people in their zebra stripped safari cars.

I'm in my 79th year of life and have been hunting since the age of six years, and I doubt there are more than a hand full of PHs in Africa that have been alive as long as I have been hunting on my on.

The people you are calling real hunters wounded far more animals than they killed and collected. They were known to have stampeded whole herds of bison over cliffs and utilized no more than a small portion of the meat, and hides, while the rest simply rotted.

Today if one hunts Africa he is not allowed to bring meat back home to the USA and most other countries, but that meat is not wasted. What is not utilized in camp is consumed by the locals. so the only thing he can bring home is the cape and horns, and leather from what he has taken.

You people call this trophies, an hunter calls them memory banks that are relived every time they are seen in their dens. These things represent memories of time spent under the Southern Cross and the smell of the smoke from camp fires, or the viewing of the Aurora Borealis in Alaska's wilderness. They are not trophies.

People are predators and the only difference between a hunter and a non-hunter is who does their killing! Antis wear leather shoes, belts and eat beef , chicken, and fish that someone else raised in a pen and killed for them. Game animals have at least a chance of escape, while meat market animals had no chance at all! Now who is the hypocrite in this discussion?

..........................................................................................

quote:

They will not support lazy, unskilled, entitled and pampered hunters flying in for a virtually guaranteed kill. Especially when they brag about it in the public domain and post pictures of their "accomplishments".

A glimpse into the psyche of an anti hunter. A bit of class envy mixed with xenophobia topped off with a dose of nationalism.

The quota is fixed by the government through their "Parks" or "Conservation" or equivalent departments. To achieve the best outcome, the quota should go to the highest bidders ... who are likely to be wealthy foreigners. By definition these people have to "fly in" and have only a short time to hunt. The rest of the year they are likely to be working productively pulling teeth or curing cancer. None are likely to be lean sinewy bush types (who generally have no money); and some of whom are old and fat. BTW a lot of PHs, who spend most of their time hunting, are fat; and some are old. Who cares? Apparently Doug W cares. Why? Because he can't think rationally about the subject, and he probably has some hang-up that has messed up his emootions.

OK here is the story and video about a hunting safari in Tanzania.The Safari company was called The Green Mile.
You see how animals are being abused.
What is the opinion of the hunters here!

ANIMAL ABUSE DURING HUNTING

The video is half way the story.

quote:

Originally posted by Lizzy:
OK here is the story and video about a hunting safari in Tanzania.The Safari company was called The Green Mile.
You see how animals are being abused.
What is the opinion of the hunters here!

ANIMAL ABUSE DURING HUNTING

The video is half way the story.

Oh for crying out loud, the Find function isn't that hard to figure out...

Green Mile thread

Lizzy is gettin' thin!!! Thin on words when faced with cold hard facts!

Thin Lizzy abandoned me on the 13 yr old lion thread...facts are facts!

Lizzie, you posted earlier that you went canoeing on the Zambezi River to, among other places, "Kayemba." The name of the place is actually "Kanyemba."

I invite you to Google "Maneaters" and "Kanyemba." If you slept there overnight, outdoors, at least since 2010, and are still alive, you are lucky.

Until you learn a few things about lions I will not bother to read anything more you post.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:


A glimpse into the psyche of an anti hunter. A bit of class envy mixed with xenophobia topped off with a dose of nationalism.

The quota is fixed by the government through their "Parks" or "Conservation" or equivalent departments. To achieve the best outcome, the quota should go to the highest bidders ... who are likely to be wealthy foreigners. By definition these people have to "fly in" and have only a short time to hunt. The rest of the year they are likely to be working productively pulling teeth or curing cancer. None are likely to be lean sinewy bush types (who generally have no money); and some of whom are old and fat. BTW a lot of PHs, who spend most of their time hunting, are fat; and some are old. Who cares? Apparently Doug W cares. Why? Because he can't think rationally about the subject, and he probably has some hang-up that has messed up his emootions.

Got it, we are busy, some of us are old and fat and we only have a short time to hunt .... so it has to be easy or we wouldn't get anything. lol

Yes, that is why I said entitled.
Many of you feel entitled to a successful easy hunt even though you are old, fat, and unwilling to expend much time (or physical effort), which is exactly why much of the public will not support that kind of hunter or hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:

Instead you should be looking at hunter success ratios as an indicator how how hard or easy a hunt is.
Glancing, some Zim operators boast a 90% success rate for their lion hunts.
Maybe all their hunters are super skilled and committed? More likely the hunting is very easy.

Or maybe it has to do with the required number of days of hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W: In my opinion non hunters will support or at least tolerate hunting IF the hunt requires skill and difficulty on the part of the hunter and success isn't virtually guaranteed.

I think there is a flaw in your logic. They don't care about if it's hard, easy, or sporting. Anti-hunters will remain anti and non-hunters are apathetic until someone plays on their emotions and then they get emotional without looking at any evidence. They are not responding to how hard or easy it was to kill "Cecil". They are responding to a PR campaign.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Lizzie, you posted earlier that you went canoeing on the Zambezi River to, among other places, "Kayemba." The name of the place is actually "Kanyemba."

I invite you to Google "Maneaters" and "Kanyemba." If you slept there overnight, outdoors, at least since 2010, and are still alive, you are lucky.

Until you learn a few things about lions I will not bother to read anything more you post.

Well Indy, I did this 6 days canoeing trip in 1981, just after the bush war was finished.
It is Kanyemba, sorry a typing mistake.
Starting in Chirundu. I am now reading how this this safari changed with first class tents and hot running water and delicious food.

But in 1981 it was primitive, food was taken in a cooler box, deep frozen and we had to take our own mug, drank water from the river. One gas-bottle to heat up the food. If you wanted an alcoholic drink you had to bring your own bottle.
Had to wash in the river but someone was watching the crocs. We didn't wash in the river but scooped water out to rinse our-self down. The guide made a small campfire. Started at sunrise and stopped around 11 am for brunch as it became too hot. At 3 pm we carried on till about 5 pm because at 6 it will be dark. Just enough time to put the stretcher together and get the sleeping bag out.
Heard lions roar and in the morning we saw the spoors of animals who came down the river or out of the river. I thought that the Hippos were dangerous, peddling through their pods.
The last morning the food went off so we had no brunch. Our luggage was one weekend bag each. It was very primitive but fun. I don't need sun-downers and and crackling pork....One box of food was left out and the Honey-batchers got it. The guide said it is theirs now. Found the empty box the next morning.

Man eating lions,I read it but there must be an explanation for this behaviour.
It is the mosquito who kills millions of people with malaria, not lions. Hippos kill more people then lions and so do crocs.

What about the soldiers going in with 4 guys for 10 days. They hardly took any food with them as water bottles and ammunition were more important. They slept on the ground, no stretchers and never heard that any of them were eaten by lions! My late husband did tell me that a herd of elephants stepped over him so quite that nobody woke up. There was a big elephant dung each side of him to as proof. They did sleep spread out and one had duty but if it is pitch black the one on duty didn't see it. Better not as then panic would have started. He did see Wild Dogs hunting a Zebra, huge herds of Buffalo's and Rhinos.

The best way Rhodesians could have protected wildlife was by winning the Bush War. The best way Europeans and Americans could have protected wildlife was by helping Rhodesia win the Bush War. Sadly we were all to stupid to realize the forest...for the trees.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The best way Rhodesians could have protected wildlife was by winning the Bush War. The best way Europeans and Americans could have protected wildlife was by helping Rhodesia win the Bush War. Sadly we were all to stupid to realize the forest...for the trees.

A profundity for the record!

quote:

Originally posted by T.J.:

quote:

Originally posted by Lizzy:
OK here is the story and video about a hunting safari in Tanzania.The Safari company was called The Green Mile.
You see how animals are being abused.
What is the opinion of the hunters here!

ANIMAL ABUSE DURING HUNTING

The video is half way the story.

Oh for crying out loud, the Find function isn't that hard to figure out...

Green Mile thread

Thank you for the link.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The best way Rhodesians could have protected wildlife was by winning the Bush War. The best way Europeans and Americans could have protected wildlife was by helping Rhodesia win the Bush War. Sadly we were all to stupid to realize the forest...for the trees.

Quite right ledvm. But it was the USA and Europe who supported the other side. (and of course the USSR and China) Your president Carter invited Mugabe to the White House.

I made scrapbooks from 1978 till 1984 from newspapers and photos.(Mission killings, Viscounts shot down and the killings of whole villages)
The only daily documentation in the world, I think.
I will donate my collection to Hugh Bomburg in New Zealand for his museum so it will be saved for future generations to read. After 4 weeks in Rhodesia I was invited to a farm and on the second day we were attacked by terrorists.

I went to South Africa to visit friends and one of them was a policeman. He gave me at the airport a bag full of tracer bullets, which I put in my handbag. Only going through security I thought it might be illegal. But I walked behind the desk to look at the screen to see if they showed up. The guy working there gave me a wink. Still don't now if he didn't see it or if he let it through as I was going back to Rhodesia. Gave the bullets to game ranger friends and the farmer.

The Rhodesian troopies were the best in the world, they won every battle but lost the war in the battleground of world politics. A bloody shame.

quote:

which is exactly why much of the public will not support that kind of hunter or hunting.

You mean the "low information" public including obviously yourself.

Have you ever been on any kind of hunt in Zim as hunter or even observer? How about a bow hunt? Ever killed anything with a bow? If you had, you would not write this emotional drivel.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:

How about a bow hunt? Ever killed anything with a bow? If you had, you would not write this emotional drivel.

Yes I bow hunt and have killed elk with a bow, on public land, with only a general tag, without any paid or unpaid assistance and not just outside a Park or sanctuary.


My best is a 6x6, bugled in to 12 yards, 4 miles back in roadless land and took 5 trips hauling it out on my back to get it out.


Crow is served.

Ah so now we know. Your standard is you have to hunt alone with a bow in an area of little game nowhere near a park or sanctuary, carry your meat out on your back, the more miles the better. Only then are you "deserving". Anyone that does not meet your standard is fat, lazy, entitled and unsporting. Unfortunately all the wildlife in Africa outside the easily accessible tourist-popular National Parks would be dead and long gone under those standards. For there would be no sport hunting to speak of, and without the money from sport hunting you have Kenya.

Let me educate you Doug. Hunting DG with a rifle in Zim or any other African country with a PH is not a guaranteed thing, and it's not a walk in the park either. Even over bait. Ask any Leopard hunter. Not uncommmon to spend 20 days in the blind over several trips. Buffalo and Elephant hunting involves tracking for days on end in rough country, not uncommon to put in 10 miles a day for several days. And these animals, unlike elk, will often try kill you if you fluff your shot, and sometimes (especially in the case of cow elephant) for just being in their way.

If you want to be self-righteous, then protest the plains game hunting in South Africa where it's not uncommon for shooting to be done from a vehicle. But wait a minute, most of those shooting from the vehicle are local hunters or the landowner himself, not "fat entitled" foreigners. But that would be none of your business either, this is a private matter between the landowner and the hunter.

And surely you disapprove of almost every hunt in Texas that is conducted from a blind near a feeder. And even your Eastern bowhunting brothers 90% of whom make their kills from a tree stand. Not sporting at all eh?

The real truth is you can't afford to hunt Africa and are jealous of those that can and do.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Ah so now we know. Your standard is you have to hunt alone with a bow in an area of little game nowhere near a park or sanctuary, carry your meat out on your back, the more miles the better. Only then are you "deserving". Anyone that does not meet your standard is fat, lazy, entitled and unsporting. Unfortunately all the wildlife in Africa outside the easily accessible tourist-popular National Parks would be dead and long gone under those standards. For there would be no sport hunting to speak of, and without the money from sport hunting you have Kenya.

Let me educate you Doug. Hunting DG with a rifle in Zim or any other African country with a PH is not a guaranteed thing, and it's not a walk in the park either. Even over bait. Ask any Leopard hunter. Not uncommmon to spend 20 days in the blind over several trips. Buffalo and Elephant hunting involves tracking for days on end in rough country, not uncommon to put in 10 miles a day for several days. And these animals, unlike elk, will often try kill you if you fluff your shot, and sometimes (especially in the case of cow elephant) for just being in their way.

If you want to be self-righteous, then protest the plains game hunting in South Africa where it's not uncommon for shooting to be done from a vehicle. But wait a minute, most of those shooting from the vehicle are local hunters or the landowner himself, not "fat entitled" foreigners. But that would be none of your business either, this is a private matter between the landowner and the hunter.

And surely you disapprove of almost every hunt in Texas that is conducted from a blind near a feeder. And even your Eastern bowhunting brothers 90% of whom make their kills from a tree stand. Not sporting at all eh?

The real truth is you can't afford to hunt Africa and are jealous of those that can and do.

That's going to leave a mark....

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Ah so now we know. Your standard is you have to hunt alone with a bow in an area of little game nowhere near a park or sanctuary, carry your meat out on your back, the more miles the better. Only then are you "deserving". Anyone that does not meet your standard is fat, lazy, entitled and unsporting. Unfortunately all the wildlife in Africa outside the easily accessible tourist-popular National Parks would be dead and long gone under those standards. For there would be no sport hunting to speak of, and without the money from sport hunting you have Kenya.

Let me educate you Doug. Hunting DG with a rifle in Zim or any other African country with a PH is not a guaranteed thing, and it's not a walk in the park either. Even over bait. Ask any Leopard hunter. Not uncommmon to spend 20 days in the blind over several trips. Buffalo and Elephant hunting involves tracking for days on end in rough country, not uncommon to put in 10 miles a day for several days. And these animals, unlike elk, will often try kill you if you fluff your shot, and sometimes (especially in the case of cow elephant) for just being in their way.

If you want to be self-righteous, then protest the plains game hunting in South Africa where it's not uncommon for shooting to be done from a vehicle. But wait a minute, most of those shooting from the vehicle are local hunters or the landowner himself, not "fat entitled" foreigners. But that would be none of your business either, this is a private matter between the landowner and the hunter.

And surely you disapprove of almost every hunt in Texas that is conducted from a blind near a feeder. And even your Eastern bowhunting brothers 90% of whom make their kills from a tree stand. Not sporting at all eh?

The real truth is you can't afford to hunt Africa and are jealous of those that can and do.

Ouch!

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Ah so now we know. Your standard is you have to hunt alone with a bow in an area of little game nowhere near a park or sanctuary, carry your meat out on your back, the more miles the better. Only then are you "deserving". Anyone that does not meet your standard is fat, lazy, entitled and unsporting. Unfortunately all the wildlife in Africa outside the easily accessible tourist-popular National Parks would be dead and long gone under those standards. For there would be no sport hunting to speak of, and without the money from sport hunting you have Kenya.

Let me educate you Doug. Hunting DG with a rifle in Zim or any other African country with a PH is not a guaranteed thing, and it's not a walk in the park either. Even over bait. Ask any Leopard hunter. Not uncommmon to spend 20 days in the blind over several trips. Buffalo and Elephant hunting involves tracking for days on end in rough country, not uncommon to put in 10 miles a day for several days. And these animals, unlike elk, will often try kill you if you fluff your shot, and sometimes (especially in the case of cow elephant) for just being in their way.

If you want to be self-righteous, then protest the plains game hunting in South Africa where it's not uncommon for shooting to be done from a vehicle. But wait a minute, most of those shooting from the vehicle are local hunters or the landowner himself, not "fat entitled" foreigners. But that would be none of your business either, this is a private matter between the landowner and the hunter.

And surely you disapprove of almost every hunt in Texas that is conducted from a blind near a feeder. And even your Eastern bowhunting brothers 90% of whom make their kills from a tree stand. Not sporting at all eh?

The real truth is you can't afford to hunt Africa and are jealous of those that can and do.

Now we know?
You have been claiming to have me all figured out for several posts.
What a hoot!

Yawn.
More internet psychoanalysis, plus financial analysis to boot. lol


The truth is I have no desire to hunt africa or any other type of hunt where I depend on others to provide the skill I lack.
Nor hunt where success is virtually guaranteed.
I have the means to do so if I wanted.

Even less to hunt an animal that literally within hours of "hunting" I have shot a "trophy" at close range with a spotlight.

I am sure other hunts can be harder and more challenging if you want them to be.
But that isn't what the topic or current outrage is about.

But that would be none of your business either, this is a private matter between the landowner and the hunter.
Only if the public doesn't support it, laws in the US can be passed to prevent US citizens from participating in it.

^ Yeah, think about that.

quote:

Originally posted by Lizzy:
OK here is the story and video about a hunting safari in Tanzania.The Safari company was called The Green Mile.
You see how animals are being abused.
What is the opinion of the hunters here!

ANIMAL ABUSE DURING HUNTING

The video is half way the story.

The big problem here is you portray this to be hunting, when any hunter will tell you everything you see in that film is illegal, and in fact nothing more than poaching. These are poachers not hunters. I think you knew that fact and this film was selected to show uninformed people the false picture of hunters. There is not a hunter in the world who wouldn't turn this creeps into the authorities.

These guys look more like ISIS than hunters.

That film outrages you, and I can assure you there in not hunter who wouldn't be sickened by this, so don't even portray this as hunting because it is absolutely is NOT, and I believe you knew that before you posted the link to it!

This has destroyed what little credibility you had here. Because we now see the lengths you will go to try to convince the public that your cause is reputable and honorable.

In a word this was low even for you antis!

....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Ah so now we know. Your standard is you have to hunt alone with a bow in an area of little game nowhere near a park or sanctuary, carry your meat out on your back, the more miles the better. Only then are you "deserving". Anyone that does not meet your standard is fat, lazy, entitled and unsporting. Unfortunately all the wildlife in Africa outside the easily accessible tourist-popular National Parks would be dead and long gone under those standards. For there would be no sport hunting to speak of, and without the money from sport hunting you have Kenya.

Let me educate you Doug. Hunting DG with a rifle in Zim or any other African country with a PH is not a guaranteed thing, and it's not a walk in the park either. Even over bait. Ask any Leopard hunter. Not uncommmon to spend 20 days in the blind over several trips. Buffalo and Elephant hunting involves tracking for days on end in rough country, not uncommon to put in 10 miles a day for several days. And these animals, unlike elk, will often try kill you if you fluff your shot, and sometimes (especially in the case of cow elephant) for just being in their way.

If you want to be self-righteous, then protest the plains game hunting in South Africa where it's not uncommon for shooting to be done from a vehicle. But wait a minute, most of those shooting from the vehicle are local hunters or the landowner himself, not "fat entitled" foreigners. But that would be none of your business either, this is a private matter between the landowner and the hunter.

And surely you disapprove of almost every hunt in Texas that is conducted from a blind near a feeder. And even your Eastern bowhunting brothers 90% of whom make their kills from a tree stand. Not sporting at all eh?

The real truth is you can't afford to hunt Africa and are jealous of those that can and do.

Now we know?
You have been claiming to have me all figured out for several posts.
What a hoot!

Yawn.
More internet psychoanalysis, plus financial analysis to boot. lol


The truth is I have no desire to hunt africa or any other type of hunt where I depend on others to provide the skill I lack.
Nor hunt where success is virtually guaranteed.
I have the means to do so if I wanted.

Even less to hunt an animal that literally within hours of "hunting" I have shot a "trophy" at close range with a spotlight.

I am sure other hunts can be harder and more challenging if you want them to be.
But that isn't what the topic or current outrage is about.

But that would be none of your business either, this is a private matter between the landowner and the hunter.
Only if the public doesn't support it, laws in the US can be passed to prevent US citizens from participating in it.

^ Yeah, think about that.

I really don't feel like reading this entire thread and all your posts so how about helping me out here.

Are you against a hunter traveling to Africa and hunting?

The Cecil debacle represents probably less than 1/10 of 1% of the effort put in on most African hunts. And the fact is that concerning this hunt none of us know the real facts, only the aired versions of what occurred.

You stated you have no interest in hunting Africa. This is an African Hunting Forum. What is your interest in being here.

Now to make sure you realize I am worthy to have a discussion with you I have likely killed far more Moose and Caribou than you can imagine and NEVER even brought an antler out of the field. I suspect any Dall Sheep hunt I've done matches your described Elk hunt in effort. My Elephant hunt in Zim certainly matched those hunts in effort and in temperatures, thick vegetation, my body found very challenging. Lastly, way more dangerous.

I too used to be judgmental about the "pilgrims" that came to the bush community I lived in and left with antlers and one freezer box of meat at 70# (Some didn't even leave with one freezer box). It didn't matter to me that these folks paid dearly to do what I could do for gas money or that they supported the local economy and the meat went to the local food bank.

I've grown up a bit since that time and realize LEGAL hunting equals conservation regardless of who does it, how it's done, where it's done, and MOST IMPORTANTLY..... if it doesn't meet my personal definition of hunting I try not to judge the other hunting with my personal yardstick.

So do tell. Why are you here? I get that you have a hair up your butt about a Lion some tourist company gave a name. I DON'T MUCH LIKE IT EITHER. You haven't been outside of "Gunsmithing" or "Custom guns forums" on AR until the named Lion died and you chimed in here.

You do realize that you sound a bit like IF YOU DON'T HUNT MY WAY YOU AREN'T HUNTING?

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Even less to hunt an animal that literally within hours of "hunting" I have shot a "trophy" at close range with a spotlight.

I've got you figured out too, Doug.

You're ignorant. Why? You don't have any idea what you're talking about. Since I don't believe in ad hominem attacks, I'll tell you something.

I killed a lion on the 18th afternoon of a 21 day hunt in Zimbabwe. Within hours? Didn't work for it? Baloney.

And the same hunt was a cat hunt including leopard as well. Never did get a shot at a leopard. Other hunters, in the same concession, did not get a shot at a lion even on 28-day hunts.

That's why they call it "hunting."

There is no difference between/among:

1. Hiding and deceptively pretending you're a cow elk to lure a bull to bow range.

2. Hiding in a tree stand and luring deer with bait in Texas.

3. Hiding in a tree stand and luring lion with bait in Africa.

Oh, I forgot. There is one difference. You have to work hard to get the bait. It doesn't come from feed stores or Cabela's.

Anyone who would kill a majestic elk while denouncing someone else who would kill a lion is a hypocrite. From the standpoint of the elk,that simply makes you a racist (or species-ist, if you prefer that term). The difference between you and usual people on this site is that they are not racists--or species-ists. The elk doesn't care.

For the record, I too have killed a 6X6 elk. I'm an equal opportunity hunter. You would be well to ponder that awhile.

Much of what is shown in "The Green Mile" is illegal, unethical, cruel, and downright disgusting, and I am angry that anyone would do such things.

However, the scenes showing the wounding of animals and rushing to capture them while they still are alive make me wonder if the shooters (I won't say hunters) are Muslims preparing to perform the dhabiha ritual according to sharia law.

Does anyone recognize the language they spoke in so excitedly?

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

That film outrages you, and I can assure you there in not hunter who wouldn't be sickened by this, so don't even portray this as hunting because it is absolutely is NOT, and I believe you knew that before you posted the link to it!

This has destroyed what little credibility you had here. Because we now see the lengths you will go to try to convince the public that your cause is reputable and honorable.

In a word this was low even for you antis!

....................................................................

??? I read the comments on this subject on this forum on an other threat. Someone gave me the link....I am sure that many of these non ethical hunting videos can be found on internet. Is there any control on this! NO as even in civilised countries it is difficult to prevent animal abuse with domesticated animals. Look at the Ringling Circus in the USA.

it is quite clear that everybody was disgust. The problem here is that there is so much traffic going on that some don't see the answers..in time.

You are welcome to have a beer at my place. I have a big Cape Buffalo Skull hanging outside on my terrace.
Shot by my dentist + friend in Rhodesia in 1977. It was a hunt against foot & mouth in a farming area....
Also a skull of a male Baboon in my bathroom and even a human skull of a Roman soldier 2000 years old. excavation in Maastricht.

And please there are also skeletons in the cupboard among hunters, just like dentists, doctors, bankers, lawyers, politicians and even nurses.
Which one would you trust?

I told you guys Doug W is just a Troll.

Funny thing about that "Crow is served" comment. I realized right away the troll had just hung himself with the rope provided. We've seen his type before in that if a hunt doesn't require extreme physical effort, it doesn't fit his false elitism.

quote:

Originally posted by Lizzy:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The best way Rhodesians could have protected wildlife was by winning the Bush War. The best way Europeans and Americans could have protected wildlife was by helping Rhodesia win the Bush War. Sadly we were all to stupid to realize the forest...for the trees.

Quite right ledvm. But it was the USA and Europe who supported the other side. (and of course the USSR and China) Your president Carter invited Mugabe to the White House.

I made scrapbooks from 1978 till 1984 from newspapers and photos.(Mission killings, Viscounts shot down and the killings of whole villages)
The only daily documentation in the world, I think.
I will donate my collection to Hugh Bomburg in New Zealand for his museum so it will be saved for future generations to read. After 4 weeks in Rhodesia I was invited to a farm and on the second day we were attacked by terrorists.

I went to South Africa to visit friends and one of them was a policeman. He gave me at the airport a bag full of tracer bullets, which I put in my handbag. Only going through security I thought it might be illegal. But I walked behind the desk to look at the screen to see if they showed up. The guy working there gave me a wink. Still don't now if he didn't see it or if he let it through as I was going back to Rhodesia. Gave the bullets to game ranger friends and the farmer.

The Rhodesian troopies were the best in the world, they won every battle but lost the war in the battleground of world politics. A bloody shame.

Lizzy...we can drink to that.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

quote:

Even less to hunt an animal that literally within hours of "hunting" I have shot a "trophy" at close range with a spotlight.

I've got you figured out too, Doug.

You're ignorant. Why? You don't have any idea what you're talking about. Since I don't believe in ad hominem attacks, I'll tell you something.

I killed a lion on the 18th afternoon of a 21 day hunt in Zimbabwe. Within hours? Didn't work for it? Baloney.

Only the topic isn't about your lion hunt, unless you are Dr Palmer.



If you had a successful lion hunt where all the odds were not stacked in your favor, where your hunting skills and effort made the difference between success and failure and where the lion had a "sporting" chance of eluding you, GREAT!

I don't have a problem with that and I doubt most non hunters excluding the anti hunters would.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Ah so now we know. Your standard is you have to hunt alone with a bow in an area of little game nowhere near a park or sanctuary, carry your meat out on your back, the more miles the better. Only then are you "deserving". Anyone that does not meet your standard is fat, lazy, entitled and unsporting. Unfortunately all the wildlife in Africa outside the easily accessible tourist-popular National Parks would be dead and long gone under those standards. For there would be no sport hunting to speak of, and without the money from sport hunting you have Kenya.

Let me educate you Doug. Hunting DG with a rifle in Zim or any other African country with a PH is not a guaranteed thing, and it's not a walk in the park either. Even over bait. Ask any Leopard hunter. Not uncommmon to spend 20 days in the blind over several trips. Buffalo and Elephant hunting involves tracking for days on end in rough country, not uncommon to put in 10 miles a day for several days. And these animals, unlike elk, will often try kill you if you fluff your shot, and sometimes (especially in the case of cow elephant) for just being in their way.

If you want to be self-righteous, then protest the plains game hunting in South Africa where it's not uncommon for shooting to be done from a vehicle. But wait a minute, most of those shooting from the vehicle are local hunters or the landowner himself, not "fat entitled" foreigners. But that would be none of your business either, this is a private matter between the landowner and the hunter.

And surely you disapprove of almost every hunt in Texas that is conducted from a blind near a feeder. And even your Eastern bowhunting brothers 90% of whom make their kills from a tree stand. Not sporting at all eh?

The real truth is you can't afford to hunt Africa and are jealous of those that can and do.

Bloody hell Russ if I had posted the likes of that MJines fellow would have roasted me.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Ah so now we know. Your standard is you have to hunt alone with a bow in an area of little game nowhere near a park or sanctuary, carry your meat out on your back, the more miles the better. Only then are you "deserving". Anyone that does not meet your standard is fat, lazy, entitled and unsporting. Unfortunately all the wildlife in Africa outside the easily accessible tourist-popular National Parks would be dead and long gone under those standards. For there would be no sport hunting to speak of, and without the money from sport hunting you have Kenya.

Let me educate you Doug. Hunting DG with a rifle in Zim or any other African country with a PH is not a guaranteed thing, and it's not a walk in the park either. Even over bait. Ask any Leopard hunter. Not uncommmon to spend 20 days in the blind over several trips. Buffalo and Elephant hunting involves tracking for days on end in rough country, not uncommon to put in 10 miles a day for several days. And these animals, unlike elk, will often try kill you if you fluff your shot, and sometimes (especially in the case of cow elephant) for just being in their way.

If you want to be self-righteous, then protest the plains game hunting in South Africa where it's not uncommon for shooting to be done from a vehicle. But wait a minute, most of those shooting from the vehicle are local hunters or the landowner himself, not "fat entitled" foreigners. But that would be none of your business either, this is a private matter between the landowner and the hunter.

And surely you disapprove of almost every hunt in Texas that is conducted from a blind near a feeder. And even your Eastern bowhunting brothers 90% of whom make their kills from a tree stand. Not sporting at all eh?

The real truth is you can't afford to hunt Africa and are jealous of those that can and do.

You left out the midwest where hunters line up hollowed out round hay bales between the strip of timber and the cut corn fields and then on opening morning they ambush the deer on their morning walk to the corn fields.