Thanks to funds put up by SCI, my local gun club now has a charging target set up. It is on a pulley and cable system, and the target charges down hill from about 25 yards and stops about 3' in front of the shooter. At the begining of the charge, local rules require the shooter to count to two-thousand and two before raising his rifle. I was able to get off two shots with my Ruger 416 Rigby, both into the heart of the bear. It is a real hoot to shoot. I'm going to check the speed of the target with a radar gun next week.

Anyway, about how fast can each of the big four charge?

G'day, faster that you would ever believe until you see it.
I know that's not the answer you're after, but it's still true.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

1/4-milers run about 15 mph. I've heard eles at 25 mph. I've heard lions 4 seconds per 100 yards, whatever that converts to.

I think it is unfair that the target stops! It should only stop if you hit the spot that stops the motor(?) or whatever. Otherwise, it knocks you on your can!

Big bears can run about 35 mph.
Dave

In reality?

I hope a few steps slower then me!

Will,

They use gravity comes off the Rockies with lots of speed..



Mike

Widowmaker, in reality, bears are increadibly fast. 30-35mph is often quoted. 10mph translates to around 14.67 fps, so 35mph = 51 fps. That's 50 yards in just under 3 seconds.

Dan

Ele, Hippo and buff are all in the 35-40mph bracket - once they get up to full speed. A typical elephants run- away from trouble is arround 25mph.

Leopard and lion-80mph but accelerate very quickly. By the third bound they are up to full speed, where as it takes an ele a good 50m or so to work up to max.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Ele, Hippo and buff are all in the 35-40mph bracket - once they get up to full speed. A typical elephants run- away from trouble is arround 25mph.

Leopard and lion-80mph but accelerate very quickly. By the third bound they are up to full speed, where as it takes an ele a good 50m or so to work up to max.

Ganyana,

I presume that you actually mean Km/h.

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
At the begining of the charge, local rules require the shooter to count to two-thousand and two before raising his rifle. I was able to get off two shots with my Ruger 416 Rigby, both into the heart of the bear.
Anyway, about how fast can each of the big four charge?

All I can say if that were a real Brownie, or Mountain Grizzley, you better not count at all, or you are going to get mauled!

I sat on a mountain side in Alaska, and watched a Mountain Grizz come out of the trees 100 yds away from our horses tied to willow limbs in the middle of a 200 yd wide grassy medow. He charged, and horses broke free, and headed for the other side of the medow. The grizz cought one of the horses 50 yds short of the trees, and broke his neck! The bear crossed 150 yds while the horses crossed 50 yds in panic! Man, a scared horse can run for the first 100 yds, and that bear was on him with a 100 yd defacite before the horse could make more than 50 yds.

I had seen them jumpstart into the weeds very quickly, but untill I saw this wide open run from start to finish, I just though I had seen a bear run!

I was charged by a Hippo in thick cover on this year's safari. Related to your question, the first thing that stands out is how much stress can slow time down, changing the frame of reference from which you might consider various suggested foot speed measurements. And, how they translate into your practice regime.

We'd followed the large bull's track out of the water into cover that thickened into heavy thorn bushes. The latter’s gradually increasing density snuck up on you to the point that one almost certainly would have declined the chance to follow the bull into them had they had started that way.

About 800 yards into the brush, we heard a sudden loud crash from close aboard. It sounded like a car accident. That's when my time references shifted to the “other worldlyâ€. A fraction of a second later, our tracker who was on point went thrashing by me in a full retreat that would have made Carl Lewis worry for his world records. I remember thinking "That's DEFINATELY not good", going to one knee, shouldering my 460 Weatherby in the direction of the commotion, and centering the vertical crosshair on four brown/purple feet trampling under the branchline towards us. And, feeling a one inch thorn puncture thru the tendon at the front of my right knee which I'd put down for the shot.

That's probably the next unusual thing. Pain that should be there isn't. In the moment, I remember feeling the tip of that thorn cut against the inner bone of my right knee and completely disregarding it. At that point, sound seemed to become distant, nearly going away, and my memory of my vision is that it had reduced to a tunnel focused on the bull's feet, the bush through which his head would emerge. Of centering my vertical cross hair between oncoming front feet, and the horizontal on the bush 5-10 yards in front of me where I imagined his brain would emerge. I specifically remember thinking about shooting his moving brain, and focusing on precisely center punching it.

Just before the bull’s snout emerged into the opening, his feet shifted and he started a hard turn to the right. It seemed to take forever. Almost like watching an aircraft carrier turn. As I tracked him laterally in his turn thru the bush and began to squeeze the trigger, my PH's ear came into my other eye's field of tunnel vision. With my muzzle breaked barrel just a foot from his head and the hippo seemingly in retreat, I didn't pull the trigger, pulling the muzzle up to avoid sweeping the PH.

The hippo stopped just a few yards further into the bush. Sitting there, with sound now returning, I could hear him breathing. However, we couldn’t see him in the still thicker bush toward where he’d stopped. It was eerie. We called it a draw and pulled back.

I suppose relating the experience is a long way of saying I'm not so sure knowing the feet per second of the charge quite captures what transpires during the event. The whole experience probably played out in less than five seconds. But, in my mind, it still plays the length of a full-featured movie. FWIW, I suppose it supports the same conclusion: Make the first shot count. And, to the extent one can recreate stresses during practice on paper, your shooting during the real thing will benefit.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Will:
I've heard lions 4 seconds per 100 yards, whatever that converts to. QUOTE]

Yeah, Will. I've heard that, too. But, having done the math, that works out to 51.15 mph, which is pretty hard to believe. Most reports have lions able to acheive speeds of up to 36 mph; a much more realistic speed. That means that even if a lion could reach 36 mph instantaneously it would take her about 5.68 seconds to cover 100 yds. Good luck all you sprinters out there!
Dave

I'm not worried about how fast they charge, just the difference in speed between me and whomever I'm hunting with.

I have heard the 4 seconds 100yd. thing as well, I think it might be possible. That "spurt" of speed right there at the beginning, they probably can't maintain it past 100yds. and that is why their overall might only be 36mpg.

Reaction time I think is a very key component here. I had a class on pistols once with a retired Secret Service agent that trained FBI and others. He said that 7yds. was the boundary, inside of that a HUMAN could cover the distance faster than almost anybody could raise and fire their pistol.

I'd occasionally practice without the 2thousand2 count just to make sure it didn't become too much of a habit.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
... At the begining of the charge, local rules require the shooter to count to two-thousand and two before raising his rifle.

Counting from 1 to 2002 would take a very long time I would think...

Eric = you are correct- thoses speeds are in km/h.

Cheetah are the fastest and they only make 70mph / 110km/h

I can only vouch for buff and Lion, A buff will give you plenty of time to kill him from 50 yards, but at 25 in you will get about two aimed shots out of a double and one from a bolt gun, unless your really good.

A Lion is so bloody fast it's scary, just a yellow ball with a tail sticking up, and you may get lucky and get off two "aimed" shots from 50...

Each circumstance is totally different so the question is moot, depending on terrain, speed the animal choses, how fast you shoot, how accruate you shoot, and a host of other conditions including how many tracker, gun bearers, water boys and camp staff and observers run over you in the process....

A Lion can be about as fast as a good horse, so thats a 3 second mile, a buffalo cannot, but he can duck and weave with a good fullback from a pro football team..Elephants are fast but you have time to shoot as a rule, but putting the bullet in the right spot can be difficult for a newbie elephant hunter I suspect or so it seems. It can be difficult for anyone on a charge as the angle changes so quickly as he closes the gap.

Also it seems the speed varies from animal to animal, some slow down at the last moment, while other like a Leopard, female Lion, seem to double their speed..Buff lower the boss at the moment of truth but they tell me you have an opertunity to put a shot down into the head, hope I never find out..elephant may doze you or stop and grab you...

The point is I don't see speed as a varible in the nature of a charge except on ocassion.

quote:

A Lion can be about as fast as a good horse, so thats a 3 second mile,

Methinks Ray means 30 second mile, there are not many supersonic cats around. (1200 mph)

30 sec mile???? 2 miles per minute???? 120 MPH????

I recently shot a "robot" charging bear that was set at 22 mph charge speed. I thought that to be slow, and the gent running it agreed.

The school solution is to shoot through the nose and under the eyes to switch off the charge.

If you heart shoot a charging animal, it will be able to get to you.

jim

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

A Lion can be about as fast as a good horse, so thats a 3 second mile,

Methinks Ray means 30 second mile, there are not many supersonic cats around. (1200 mph)

Recall that he is a Texan. Isn't everything bigger and/or faster in Texas?

A 3 minute mile is more likely what he meant, although that is only 20mph. Not sure what a "good horse" can keep up over a mile.

Cheers,
Canuck

Charges are only of interest if you happen to be the slowest runner in your group.

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

A Lion can be about as fast as a good horse, so thats a 3 second mile,

Methinks Ray means 30 second mile, there are not many supersonic cats around. (1200 mph)

Recall that he is a Texan. Isn't everything bigger and/or faster in Texas?

A 3 minute mile is more likely what he meant, although that is only 20mph. Not sure what a "good horse" can keep up over a mile.

Cheers,
Canuck

OK, so my math is a suspect as Ray's!

Sky Jack ran the Longacre mile in 1:33 which is 38.7 mph from a standing start.

Kendall Jackson turned the 1/4 mile in 20.733 seconds from a standing start. That's 43.4 MPH, which implies that it would turn the first 100 yards in just over 5 seconds.

For the record, Secretariat ran the derby in 1:59-2/5 seconds, which is still the record, I believe. That works out to right at 38 miles per hour. What was incredible about that run is that he ran each succeeding quarter mile faster than the last; i.e. he was accelerating for the entire race. Since Big Red is still the yardstick by which all horses are measured, at least around here, I think that is about as fast as thoroughbreds get. Anything over 40 mph is really flying.

Well folks, 3 second mile, or 3 minute mile, make little difference when a cat is starting at 15 yds! He is hard to hit at either speed, and more importantly, harder to stop, with any hit you make. Even a Cape Buffalo at a 15 yds start, your first of the, Maybe, two shots you'll get with a double, and the only one you'll get with a bolt rifle, better be spot on, or "you gonna have some buffalo steaks stomping hell out of you!"

I would suggest that a person time the lion charge in the video "In the Jaws of Simba". I have and it is a lot longer time than you might initially think. The video is shot in real time but some of the "experts" here might not call this lion charge a typical charge.

a charge is faster than you'd like it to be, it just seems to happen in a flash, i have been charged by 2 ele cows. its addictive but i wouldnt prevoke a charge thats bad ethics.

The target leaves the gate at 9.9 MPH and reaches a max speed of 16 MPH. Sounds slow compared to real life, but it still helps to get the kinks out.

On the lion that charged me and the ph from about 90ft, it was all over in under five seconds with him dead at my feet. One shot on the run and one in the side from the hip.

srt,

Can you tell us more on the lion charge..Who put the shots in the lion and where. What rifle or rifles were used and bullets???


Mike

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
srt,

Can you tell us more on the lion charge..Who put the shots in the lion and where. What rifle or rifles were used and bullets???


Mike

His report is in this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
At the begining of the charge, local rules require the shooter to count to two-thousand and two before raising his rifle. I was able to get off two shots with my Ruger 416 Rigby, both into the heart of the bear.
Anyway, about how fast can each of the big four charge?

All I can say if that were a real Brownie, or Mountain Grizzley, you better not count at all, or you are going to get mauled!

I sat on a mountain side in Alaska, and watched a Mountain Grizz come out of the trees 100 yds away from our horses tied to willow limbs in the middle of a 200 yd wide grassy medow. He charged, and horses broke free, and headed for the other side of the medow. The grizz cought one of the horses 50 yds short of the trees, and broke his neck! The bear crossed 150 yds while the horses crossed 50 yds in panic! Man, a scared horse can run for the first 100 yds, and that bear was on him with a 100 yd defacite before the horse could make more than 50 yds.

I had seen them jumpstart into the weeds very quickly, but untill I saw this wide open run from start to finish, I just though I had seen a bear run!

Interesting, I have had two horses taken down by Grizzlies, thankfully I was not on either . They were taken down from the rear with the Bear throwing his weight on the hind quarters and then trying to 'walk up' to the neck.

Neither horse was killed but they both were ripped up pretty well. Oddly enough it didn't seem to effect either horse as they showed no residual fear of bears.

Earlier I posted a thread with a story of my Grandmother's where she was chased by a Grizz on horseback and managed to get far enough ahead to get in a tree with here 30-30. That time the horse was faster.

I had a Mod 70 375H&H shooting factory 270gr Failsafes and the PH(Vaughan Fulton) had a CZ in 458 Win with factory Winchester 510 grain softpoints. I hit it just behind shoulder at about 60 yards and it took off into brush, abbreviating the story a bit we found it laying under a tree at about the distance I stated above laying parallel to us and not looking our way, upon the second shot from my 375 it roared and started the charged through low scrub brush and thorns, only the head and shoulders were visible and it and the distance it was clearing on each bound was phenominal. I hit it once low under head and through the lower body and it never slowed and the PH hit it through the right cheech and out and into the body which caused it to stall for a brief second and then it singled him out and kept coming. The Ph tripped while backing up and working the bolt and fell backwards with the bolt open and as the lion was about to make contact, I fired from hip at about five feet away and hit it in the right shoulder. You could see and hear the bullet impact which stopped the charged and he turned and came after me, now with an empty rifle. I backed up and tripped as the PH did and had rifle in both hands and the lion had both front paws on the rifle looking over the stock at me, and as hard as I could with an adrenalin assist I hit him in the mouth with the rifle breaking a tooth off and cutting my finger and the rifle stock. This apparently startled him and he back away and snapped my lower sling swivel and was getting ready for a return trib and another clubbing when Vaughan shot him and he stood up with glassy eyes and dropped next to me. I got up reloaded, but he was doa and may have been for sometime and just didn't know it. This seems like a long drawn out even, but it was over in less than five seconds, too fast to even think what you are doing. I know Winchester Failsafes are off my favorites list, I never recovered any of the bullets, but I suspect the went straight through with out expanding. The one I recovered out of the zebra had the pedals broken off and the shanks bent. I hit a gemsbok at about 70 yards in the shoulder and it ran about 50 yards and got stuck in an erosion cut and I stook almost over the animal and put three into its vitals before it expired. Very poor performance.

quote:

Originally posted by mufasa:
I would suggest that a person time the lion charge in the video "In the Jaws of Simba". I have and it is a lot longer time than you might initially think. The video is shot in real time but some of the "experts" here might not call this lion charge a typical charge.

That would be a good idea, but the charge in that film was slowed down for viewing, and was not shown a full speed!

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:



The grizz cought one of the horses 50 yds short of the trees, and broke his neck!
:

Interesting, I have had two horses taken down by Grizzlies, thankfully I was not on either . They were taken down from the rear with the Bear throwing his weight on the hind quarters and then trying to 'walk up' to the neck.

[/QUOTE]

Mickey1, the horse we lost was also taken down by the hind quarters, but went immediately to his neck and bit him just behing the head, breaking his neck. We didn't have a bear tag, and so couldn't shoot the Bear, and we were probably 3/4 of a mile away, and 800, to 1000 feet above them! Too bad because he was big, for an inland bear! We did have to run him off the horse to get the saddle, and other gear off the dead horse.

Here's an little example about how fast 4 leggs can move.

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/policedog.html

How fast is a charge????? My first wife was faster than the speed of light, second wife at least talked it over. Oh wait, we are talking other than wife applications aren't we? A mature brown in Alaska will make you know you are slow. OK OK, Africa right? Don't know personally, I suspect the wife answer would still be correct!!

http://www.xmission.com
says lion can do short burst of speed to 40mph, standing leaps to 12ft and leaps to 30ft.

I would reckon that the faster the better in this case - for training that is....If you can hit the fast target with satisfactory accuracy, then it stands to reason that an "actual" slower moving target would be even easier to hit.

AND...should the occasion arise that an animal was actually hauling-ass towards you - well, your're adequately prepared to hande that situation as well.

The faster moving target is better training IMHO!

JW

1200 MPH, that seems right...Ever been charged by a cat? Guess I ment 3 minute mile but I like 3 second mile on second thought...

I don't know how long it takes or how fast they are but I do know you don't have time to S**t your pants until it's all over.