I am not Carmello hat eto disappoint anyone.
NitroX yes I have killed a cape buff with a 45-70 back in 1999 using a 450 gr hard cast that I reloaded myself into Starline brass and 54.0 gr IMR3031 (CL),
500 gr I do not know where or how you hunt I do not judge you but regardless of where I hunt I always wait for a broadside shot or a 1/4 away shot (which is my prefered angle and #1 choice). The fore mentioned buff did not fall in his tracks...he went 12 feet before dropping from my first shot. I placed a second insurance shot down thru the spine into the chest at 10 yds, though I doubt it was needed.
As far as booking my trip ...I am waiting as I've placed my deposit last Feb. for an '06 safari...can you guess what caliber I'm taking?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
wynwood,

Show us that we are wrong. Book a safari. Shoot'em up with a 45-70. No one is trying to stop you. But make sure to take shots from challenging angles - none of those between the ribs broadside shots, if you please.

500, Not trying to start something here, but why would a HUNTER take shots from "challenging angles" on any game animal? Either take an ETHICAL shot, one that you are comfortable with, or don't shoot. You owe the animal no less.

I think I would have to be on the side of wynwood here.

Lets take an objective look at the argument. I would submit that if a 500S&W is sufficient then a 45-70 is twice as sufficient, I have read about people using a .454 casull to good effect on Buff. Not to mention arrows. Shoot I even read where Jim Shockley(forgive me if I mispelled his name), took the Buff species of Africa, Australia, and North America with a .54 cal muzzle loader, can you say single shot forget about any chance of reload on a charge.

I haven't noticed anyone beating up the bow, pistol, muzzle loader hunters of Buff. Is it because this nut Carmelo came across in some distant thread saying that the 45-70 is the ultimate in Buff killing, when it is obviously not. But some of you come off sounding like elitist assholes when you trash someone for saying that the 45-70 can kill buffalo. Then you try and shame that person by telling them how they are endangering the lives of their guide. Something tells me the guides that let you hunt with a bow, pistol, 45-70 or lesser rifle know what they are getting themselves into, and charge accordingly, but still take their chances all for the mighty dollar, and maybe they are getting a little of the same thrill out of the danger as the client. So let fools hunt Buffs with whatever they want, don't trash them for it, and maybe your blood pressure will stay within safe operating parameters.

Tembo

If one is going to use a rifle it should be capable of cleanly killing from any angle. This would be particularly true with DG. If you are recieving a full blown charge by an elephant or a Buffalo you likely won't have time to run around to the side and wait for it to stop before shooting.

There are a lot of rifles mentioned on this forum that cannot stop a frontal charge from either animal that seem to be highly thought of anyway.

Never the less to each his own but only a fool would depend on a PH to save their bacon.

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
Tembo

If one is going to use a rifle it should be capable of cleanly killing from any angle. This would be particularly true with DG. If you are recieving a full blown charge by an elephant or a Buffalo you likely won't have time to run around to the side and wait for it to stop before shooting.

There are a lot of rifles mentioned on this forum that cannot stop a frontal charge from either animal that seem to be highly thought of anyway.

Never the less to each his own but only a fool would depend on a PH to save their bacon.

Very well and nicely said.

quote:

Originally posted by Tembo:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
wynwood,

Show us that we are wrong. Book a safari. Shoot'em up with a 45-70. No one is trying to stop you. But make sure to take shots from challenging angles - none of those between the ribs broadside shots, if you please.

500, Not trying to start something here, but why would a HUNTER take shots from "challenging angles" on any game animal? Either take an ETHICAL shot, one that you are comfortable with, or don't shoot. You owe the animal no less.

Tembo, just about any centerfire rifle will kill a buf when a perfect broadside shot is presented and nothing goes wrong. But since the forumite in question is attempting to prove the utility of the 45-70 cartridge, it would prove nothing to take a perfect broadside shot. He should show us that the cartridge can handle the difficult angles and difficult bone structures as well.

Of course I agree that we owe the animal a clean and rapid kill. Which is why I do not use marginal/illegal calibers.

500, Point taken. Under IDEAL circumstances, ie. broadside shot at an undisturbed animal, a 45-70 would be sufficient. On a charging buffalo, however, all bets are off. I personally would want nothing less than a 458 Lott, and probably a good deal more.

500 I have no intention on trying a Texas Heart shot on a buff nor do I take marginal shots.
It is called sport hunting and if I don't get the shot I want I keep hunting until I do or go home empty handed. Pretty simple huh?
The need to carry a $20,000 Dbl gun doesn't interest me at the slightest. I have no need to dress,walk,talk like Hemingway I leave that for those with inflated egos.
Truth be told I've killed my buff(S) been there done that and moved on with my life. Yes I'm headed back in '06,not specificaly intent on buff but like my other buff(S) should I come onto some I doubt I will resist the temptation to take one possibly two (provided everything is in order).
So please go on and dress the part,talk the part,carry the gun...if that pleases you. Envision yourself however you like , it is a free world is it not?
I see myself as an ethical hard working hunter who doesn't take marginal shots, just to "jolly well see what this or that caliber/gr combo will do to a buff" to enforce some dose of egotism over a spot of warm Brandy by the firelight.

quote:

Originally posted by wynwood:
at the risk of getting beatup here I'll be brave and state I would think nothing of shooting a big bad buff with a 45-70.

You said you would think nothing of shooting a big bad buff with a 45-70.

quote:

Originally posted by wynwood:

NitroX yes I have killed a cape buff with a 45-70 back in 1999 using a 450 gr hard cast that I reloaded myself into Starline brass and 54.0 gr IMR3031 (CL),

If so, then why post you would think nothing of it, rather than I have already done it?

Maybe you are legit, but there have been so many guys who show up ranting and raving about how powerful the 45-70 is when they have shot nothing with it bigger than a whitetail deer that it's hard to swallow some of the assertions, especially if a story changes mid stream.

quote:

Originally posted by wynwood:

yes I have killed a cape buff with a 45-70 back in 1999 using a 450 gr hard cast that I reloaded myself into Starline brass and 54.0 gr IMR3031 (CL),

Goody, photo time! No one goes to Africa, hunts cape buffalo and doesn't take a photo.

quote:

Never the less to each his own but only a fool would depend on a PH to save their bacon.

See Ganyana's most recent post on CZ safety levers vs depending on a Ph to save your bacon, inadequate calibers, etc.

quote:

Yes I'm headed back in '06,not specificaly intent on buff but like my other buff(S) should I come onto some I doubt I will resist the temptation to take one possibly two (provided everything is in order).

Could you tell us what you are specifically hunting then? Since you can also take a buff or 2 if you just come onto some, and want to?

And where and with whom did you hunt these other buff with your 45/70 in the past?

Just curious.

'99 found me in Zim. attending a business meeting /hunt when I killed my 45-70 bull, 2001 found me at the same privately owned Dutch estate for the same purpose this time with a Golden Eagle/Predator in hand intent on zebra,warthog,eland when I took my 2nd bull.
'06 will find me on my first leg in Namibia near Etosha for 10 days then HOPEFULLY onto the same estate in Zim. to try for sable, this is where I MAY run into a buff again . These hunts are strictly bow/arrow affairs run by Andy Kocket Safaris, my main interest is a quality sable. I really haven't the need to kill another buff.....but whom knows temptation can make a man do odd things.
Erik thank you for the nice photos of oryx

quote:

Originally posted by wynwood:
Erik thank you for the nice photos of oryx

Sorry for not posting a picture yet, but I haven't found any on my computor of the skull and shouldermount. Alas, both these mounts are at my mothers house, as my wife and I don't have ceiling space for them. Only smaller antilope such as reedbuck and such. So we store all the bigger stuff at her place, which she finds a bit annoying sometimes.
I'll most likely visit her this weekend and will try to remember to take a digital picture for you.

500 I STILL have no reservations of shooting a buffalo with a 45-70

quote:

Originally posted by wynwood:
500 I have no intention on trying a Texas Heart shot on a buff nor do I take marginal shots.
It is called sport hunting and if I don't get the shot I want I keep hunting until I do or go home empty handed. Pretty simple huh?
Truth be told I've killed my buff(S) been there done that and moved on with my life. .

Wynwood, I'm all for you shooting what ever you want on Cape Buffalo, as long as it is legal. The fact is the 45-70 is ILLEGAL for Buffalo in Zimbabwe. It is illegal for a reason. It doesn't generate enough energy to qualify, with factory ammo. That is the criteria the cartridge is measured by, not what you handload will do. If a PH is allowing you to use the 45-70 for Buffalo in Zimbabwe, then he, and you are breaking the game laws.

Your intention to NOT take a Texas heart shot, or one from a difficult angle, is not always your choice. Buffalo have a bad habit of makeing the rules you must shoot by. That is what 500 meant by the "No rib shots" to prove your theory on the 45-70 as a buffalo cartridge. You must know that!
I have no idea if you are for real or just a dreamer, with his first rifle with a big hole in the barrel,that is unimportant, everyone starts sometime. However, I own several rifles chambered for 45-70, that include the one you are using, as well as a Ruger No1, and a double rifle. The No1 will handle as hot a load as anything made, and they still do not qualify. For the shots you PREFERE, even factory winchester 45-70 ammo will KILL a cape buffalo, but then so will a 22 Hornet! The thing we are saying is, not only is the 45-70 illegal, but margenal, at best. I have shot some Buffalo in my time, and I can tell you if you presist in this activity, the time will come when sombody else will have to finish what you start.

Enjoy your NEXT buffalo hunt, but I'd advise you to have a PH with a REAL Buffalo rifle close at hand!

I suggest you reread my post

Is 3909 ft/lbs still the lowest level allowed in Zim?

In Mike LaGrange's Ballistics in Perspective, I find it interesting that the 10.75x68 isn't listed under the Buff class, but makes it for Giraffes & Eland with 3930 ft/lbs.

Is this a misprint?

Did anyone run the numbers on that load that wynwood is using? I know several AR members set me straight on a load I used a couple of times that resulted in sticky extraction. You know who you are and Thanks.

I still would go by Will's tagline, this is fishing with light tackle. Even Mark Sullivan doesn't use a 50/110 single shot or black powder double yet.

Minkman

I can tell you the answer to your ? about my load it is better than a ton & 1/2 ft #
I shoot it thru 2 different rifles one a 22" 1895 LTD Marlin another a 32" single shot Buffalo Classic 1892
the lever on that Marlin doesn't "stick' at the slightest no flat primers, split cases,etc.

No pictures?

quote:

Originally posted by wynwood:
I can tell you the answer to your ? about my load it is better than a ton & 1/2 ft #
I shoot it thru 2 different rifles one a 22" 1895 LTD Marlin another a 32" single shot Buffalo Classic 1892
the lever on that Marlin doesn't "stick' at the slightest no flat primers, split cases,etc.

As stated above the rules are not made on what can be done with handloads, but on standard factory ammo. The 45-70 is still illegal.

NOW! I'm through with this!

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
No pictures?

WHAT HAVE I DONE?



Don

Don

I told you so. I hope you learned your lesson.

Don, the least you could do is drag up one of those old pics of Vince Lupo, or photoshop a Marlin into the hands of a guy standing by a dead buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by wynwood:
500 I have no intention on trying a Texas Heart shot on a buff nor do I take marginal shots.
It is called sport hunting and if I don't get the shot I want I keep hunting until I do or go home empty handed. Pretty simple huh?
The need to carry a $20,000 Dbl gun doesn't interest me at the slightest. I have no need to dress,walk,talk like Hemingway I leave that for those with inflated egos.
Truth be told I've killed my buff(S) been there done that and moved on with my life. Yes I'm headed back in '06,not specificaly intent on buff but like my other buff(S) should I come onto some I doubt I will resist the temptation to take one possibly two (provided everything is in order).
So please go on and dress the part,talk the part,carry the gun...if that pleases you. Envision yourself however you like , it is a free world is it not?
I see myself as an ethical hard working hunter who doesn't take marginal shots, just to "jolly well see what this or that caliber/gr combo will do to a buff" to enforce some dose of egotism over a spot of warm Brandy by the firelight.

Just being a "BALLBUSTER" again?

George

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Don, the least you could do is drag up one of those old pics of Vince Lupo, or photoshop a Marlin into the hands of a guy standing by a dead buffalo.

I"ve done enough damage here.

Don

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Don, the least you could do is drag up one of those old pics of Vince Lupo, or photoshop a Marlin into the hands of a guy standing by a dead buffalo.

(Don -- if I'm wasting too much bandwidth I'll make them links instead.)

No problems about posting pictures Charles.

I don't know why all of you gentlemen don't just use the very best buffalo cartridge, the 375/404, where one can take ANY angle shot on a buffalo.



Just like this one

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
No problems about posting pictures Charles.

I don't know why all of you gentlemen don't just use the very best buffalo cartridge, the 375/404, where one can take ANY angle shot on a buffalo.



Just like this one

And thus endeth the lesson (Sean Connery, the Untouchables).



Don

quote:

Yes things are expensive in South Africa. However, a buff bull hunt at ZAR 30K in Potch is not far from what you would pay for a 5 day Zim hunt using a reputable outfitter (exlcuding airfair).

Just for interest sake, hunting in the US isn't cheap either......

DRB,

The difference being we don't have a sliding price scale depending on your nationality.