This thread is a damn joke, do you guys think every thing is hunky dory in RSA today and no one has any prejudice and all the blacks are just walking down the Yellow Brick Road, because Apartied is no longer and do you thing all is well in Zimbabwe because the blacks "are taking back their country" well BS,

There is more tortue and violations going on today in RSA and Zimbabwe than there ever was during Apartied, or any white rule African country, and the countries going to hell in a handbasket...

The blacks literally hate the "high yellow" blacks that they refer to as colored, and those colored are being imprisoned and tortured but will our Gov. jump in and say hey "you blacks" are practicing torture and have death camps? Hell no they won't, they would loose face because they backed this horrible regime, and it would be politically incorrect to blame the "black" government, Now you tell me where the prejudice is....some seem to think prejudice is a one way street for us as whites to live by..I don't, I believe it is to be equally practice by "all" men...

Frankly, Jason I think your uninformed and an idealistic idiot with your democratic liberal thinking that is screwing up the whole world today..and I never get involved in politics, but your posts sicken me, you have no clue...

I don't believe in prejudice either, but I take time to learn what is correct and what is not..you and others are taking a strictly emotional point of view and have not taken the time to see whats happening in RSA and Zimbabwe....

I have had many blacks in both Zim and RSA tell me that life was better under white rule and yes they said some bad things took place, but that nothing has changed, it still does and they wonder why America cannot correct it again...I wonder the same thing.

My old friend and tracker at Chenhoy told me that under the white mans rule, he had a house of stone with water and a floor of stone, the gov. gave him money to feed his children, and he had a job, now under the black mans rule, he lives in fear, has a stick house with no floor, no water, has to pay all his money for taxes, and cannot feed his children as many melons, that all he gets to keep is what we give him in hunting camp and he got beat up because they think he is hiding money, and he was, I bailed him out of it with a bribe....

All I can say is some of you are very young, and hopefully you will live and learn....

Sorry if my posts tick you off, but yours ticked me off so I suppose were even on that count.

And I didn;t even get into what is taking place between the Ihosa and the Zulu that have been bitter enemys since time began, and the prisons are full and atrocities are rampant on that count and all in lovely RSA...

Opinion: A Morsel of Goat Meat

The New York Times - March 23, 2005
Nicholas D. Kristof, Op-Ed Columnist

Binga, Zimbabwe

The hungry children and the families dying of AIDS here are gut-wrenching, but somehow what I find even more depressing is this: Many, many ordinary black Zimbabweans wish that they could get back the white racist government that oppressed them in the 1970's.

"If we had the chance to go back to white rule, we'd do it," said Solomon Dube, a peasant whose child was crying with hunger when I arrived in his village. "Life was easier then, and at least you could get food and a job."

Mr. Dube acknowledged that the white regime of Ian Smith was awful. But now he worries that his 3-year-old son will die of starvation, and he would rather put up with any indignity than witness that.

An elderly peasant in another village, Makupila Muzamba, said that hunger today is worse than ever before in his seven decades or so, and said: "I want the white man's government to come back. ... Even if whites were oppressing us, we could get jobs and things were cheap compared to today."

His wife, Mugombo Mudenda, remembered that as a younger woman she used to eat meat, drink tea, use sugar and buy soap. But now she cannot even afford corn gruel. "I miss the days of white rule," she said.

Nearly every peasant I've spoken to in Zimbabwe echoed those thoughts, although it's also clear that some still hail President Robert Mugabe as a liberator. This is a difficult place to gauge the mood in, because foreign reporters are barred from Zimbabwe and promised a prison sentence of up to two years if caught. I sneaked in at Victoria Falls and traveled around the country pretending to be a tourist.

The human consequences of the economic collapse are heartbreaking. I visited a hospital and a clinic that lacked both medicines and doctors. Children die routinely for want of malaria medication that costs just a few dollars.

At one maternity ward, 21 women were sitting outside, waiting to give birth. No nurse or doctor was in sight, and I asked the women when they had last eaten meat, eggs or other protein. They laughed uproariously.

Lilian Dube, a 24-year-old who had hiked 11 miles to get to the hospital, said that she had celebrated Christmas with a morsel of goat meat.

"Before that, the last time I had meat was Christmas the year before," she said. "I just eat corn porridge and mnyi," a kind of wild fruit.

An elementary school I visited had its fifth graders meeting outside, because it doesn't have enough classrooms. Like other schools, it raises money by charging fees for all students - driving pupils away.

"Only a few of the kids who started in grade one are still with me in school," Charity Sibanda, a fifth-grader, told me. "Some dropped out because they couldn't pay school fees. And some died of AIDS."

As many as a third of working-age Zimbabweans have AIDS or H.I.V., and every 15 minutes a Zimbabwean child dies of AIDS. Partly because of AIDS, life expectancy has dropped over the last 15 years from 61 to 34, and 160,000 Zimbabwean children will lose a parent this year.

AIDS is not President Mugabe's fault, but the collapse of the health system has made the problem far worse.

The West has often focused its outrage at Mr. Mugabe's seizure of farms from white landowners, but that is tribalism on our part. The greatest suffering by far is among black Zimbabweans.

I can't put Isaac Mungombe out of my mind. He's sick, probably dying of AIDS, and his family is down to one meal a day. His wife, Jane, gave birth to their third child, Amos, six months ago at home because she couldn't afford $2 to give birth in the hospital. No one in the family has shoes, and the children can't afford to attend school. They're a wonderful, loving family, and we chatted for a long time - but Isaac and Jane will probably soon die of AIDS, and the children will join the many other orphans in the village.

When a white racist government was oppressing Zimbabwe, the international community united to demand change. These days, a black racist government is harming the people of Zimbabwe more than ever, and the international community is letting Mr. Mugabe get away with it. Our hypocrisy is costing hundreds of Zimbabwean lives every day.
http://www.aegis.com/news/nyt/2005/NYT050310.html
----------------

For more news on Zimbabwe, see:
http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/Zimbabwe/Home/

-Bob F.

Harry,

If your remark to NitroX was purely tongue in cheek, then forgive me for not catching that. Although it looks to me like I'm not the only one that had a problem understanding that it was humorously meant from your side...

As for a large number of English officers refusing to go to Rhodesia, that is simply what I have been told by former soldiers from both the UK, and soldiers from what was then Rhodesia. When it comes to my country sending soldiers to both A.Stan and Iraq (whatever that has to do with Rhodesia), I am all for it, as are many Norwegians. I have former colleagues/close friends that have been, and are, deployed in these two countrys. Since you ask what "I'm doing about it", I've served my time in uniform, and leave these two conflicts to the younger/stronger/faster guys.

Due to the leftist media, it would seem that we Norwegians are all against having troops in A.Stan and Iraq, as those who oppose the war on terrorism always get the most coverage. I presume that is why you ask.

It does unfortunatly look like my socialist government will be taking our soldiers out of these two conflicts by X-mas, as we now have a new coalotion party that will be taking over here in Norway shortly. Needless to say, I did not vote for this bunch of wankers. In fact, the conservitive side got 21700 votes more than the left side. However, our political system is set up so that the number of mandates are not always connected to the number of votes. For example, if you live in some regions of north Norway, each mans vote is worth 2 votes of those who live in most of the the south... Our country is thus unfortunalty not what I call a democracy.

Thank you for pointing out my minor typing mistake. I'm sure that your Norwegian typing is far superior to my English typing. Please forgive me.

Time to move this thread to the political forum.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

...There is more tortue and violations going on...and the countries going to hell in a handbasket...

I have had many blacks in both Zim and RSA tell me that life was better under white rule and yes they said some bad things took place.

...told me that under the white mans rule, he had a house of stone with water and a floor of stone, the gov. gave him money to feed his children, and he had a job, now under the black mans rule, he lives in fear, has a stick house with no floor, no water, has to pay all his money for taxes, and cannot feed his children as many melons...

Hi Ray,

this parallel may seem odd to you but it's resemblance is stunning:

Those are EXACTLY the same statements that were and still are uttered by some if not many people from the former German Democratic Republic after the German Unification.

I have often wondered about this especially since my father's family lived under this regime and severely suffered from it. And I have come to the conclusion that some people, be it black or white or yellow, just don't seem to be able to enjoy and benefit from freedom. Those are the ones that just go about their lifes, minding their own business, not caring about politics, values, ideals as long as they have food on the table and a roof over their heads.

I guess the only difference why things did not get as rough in Germany as they have in Africa is that Eastern Germany was lucky to be "swallowed" by a country with a sound democracy and economy that ensured a rather smooth transformation process. Compare this to the political, ethnical and economical chaos the African countries were tossed into after the end of Apartheid and you can only wonder why there isn't an even bigger mayhem...

I suppose it isn't easy to determine if things in Africa have changed for the better or the worse, for if you ask 5 people in the street they will give you 6 different answers. For the success of the end of White Apartheid it will be crucial how many people can handle their newly acquired freedom or at least learn how to do so after decades of suppression. In Germany's case those unable to benefit from their freedom were generally people from lower intellectual ranks (sorry, don't know how to express this politically correct) and with lower wages. If this should be universally true, then Africa in this respect, due to its population structure, will not be seeing light anytime soon, I'm afraid.

Harry, I simply love english humor. It is dry dull like, I'm sure your eyes and brain are. Have a good day,mutt.

quote:

Originally posted by ErikD:
Harry is probably just embarressed over the fact that England was seriously considering invading Rhodisia in support of the black terrorists, and that this plan was only twarted because Englands own officers (many of them from the various English colonies) refused to go down and fight against their white Rhodisian brothers.

EricD

I lived in Rhodesia in those days //

If the truth be known should the Brits have decided to come and try to invade Rhodesia we would have proberbly (knocked the living daylights) out of them in a bush war situation, our government forces/troops (black and white) would have run rings around them in the bush, just like the Boer Commandoes did to the Brits in the Boer war in South africa at the turn of the century ///

What a lot of ( uninformed) people dont know is in the RHODESIAN BUSH WAR we had a lot of very highly trained expert black troops fighting alongside their white brothers against MUGABE & NKOMA'S terrorists forces and their Russian & Chinese helpers and arms providers,

WE kicked butt BIG TIME militarily, the only reason we capitulated in the end is because of the WORLDWIDE UN sanctions placed on us by our former friends, and mainly white governments

The only way the Brits won in the end in the Boer war in SA was by putting the Boer (women and children) in concentration camps and staving them to death and burning the crops, thereby cutting off the food supply to the Boers ... FUNNY that we dont hear toooo much about that extermination in the liberal press of today ??

FINALLY ... In the Rhodesian BUSH WAR we had some great patriot (South African & American chopper pilots and troops as well (fighting with us) againt the COMMIE backed terrorists and also some excellant Brits as well, so it was a great force we had with one of the BEST kill ratios of any insurgent WAR on tha planet, the problem is we could not take on the terrorsists and the (white liberal SOB governments) pitted against us economically.

Our SAS and special ops forces were some of the most feared on the face of the earth. Remember we were the (die hard old Rhodesians) not the new age softer types of today, we were some of the FIRST to use what is condoned today as PRE-EMTIVE strikes ..

Our dear AR guest and friend now in Vancouver hospital ALF will know more about it than me as he was one of the brave ones whom stood up for the cause, I was only maily involved in the very early days of the bush war patrolling in the Zambezi valley, enough said from me

Peter

So True,BALLA BALLA,So True
Skuz'apo

Ray

Last try. I'll even be polite this time.

JBrown's post right from the beginning was sarcastic. He wrote the opposite to what he actually believes and wrote it so strongly that everyone should have understood that. This is called "dry sarcasm".

That is why I posted what I did, so "I fully understand the sarcasm in your post" as many posters here were taking his comments seriously.

I think you will find virtually everyone on this thread is more or less in agreement.

Mugabe is a dictator that is responsible for genocide, theft, torture among others things.

The black races are just as if not more racist than white races. Indeed "tribalism" is just another name for racism.

Apartheid was not an ideal form of society but what has replaced it may in the long run prove worse.

Many if not all Southern & Eastern African countries are actually worse off since colonialism ended at least economically.

If you want to go on safari at a good price probably 2005 was the best year and 2006 will also be good. In the longer term the opportunities in Namibia and South Africa will go the "black" way and end up more like Zimbabwe is today. South Africa will be far worse than what we see in Zimbabwe today, the killings there right now show that.

The last paragraph is my opinion anyway. Get in now while you can.

"persons who have been previously disadvantaged by unfair discrimination".

This must be in the Communist's manifesto. It is the same thing that happened in Mozambique, Tanz, etc. The Commies from China, Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea, etc. trying to instill disorder under the name of unfair discrimination.

Mugabe is just a pawn. He must think being a slave to the Yellows is better than being a slave to the Whites.

I feel I have been disadvantaged by not having access to the same opportunities for corruption as Mugabe (or substitute your favorite African political figure).

Is anyone going to correct that discrepancy?

Ray Atkinson

I don't know why I am wasting my time typing this. But I guess I hope you will read this and hear me out.

My first post was an attempt at sarcasm. I thought that would be clear. How could you, or anyone else for that matter, really think I was serious? I wrote:

quote:

As bad as things are, they will never be as unfair as apartheid. Thank god racist governments are gone from Africa.

How could you not see the irony in that last sentence? I made two additional posts, and NitroX also made several posts, explaining that my first post was ment to point out the hipocracy of those who continue to champion the "Great wave of freedon" that has swept across Africa with the advent of black rule.

I respect you and thank you for helping me out in the past(you got my rifle back from Jack when I needed for a hunt in Zim back in 03). But I must say I am very disapointed that you would call me an "uninformed and idealistic idiot" when you are the one who did not take the time to read my additional posts. If you take the time to read what I wrote you will see that you are the "uninformed" party.

It was a nice gesture by D99 to offer an appology to me for jumping to an incorrect conclusion, but I was happy just to see that he took the time to hear me out. Ray, I really hope you will also take the time to read what I wrote. I have always respected you as a gentleman and an expert, I would hate to think that you believe that I am one of the "liberal idiots" who think Africa is better off in the hands the its current leaders.

A "liberial thinker" I am not. I have always been on your side on this issue and in that I have never waivered. You misread or failed to read what I wrote and that is why you got so "pissed off". No one loves Africa and the Africans(both black and white) more than I. While bumming around Maun in July I met and talked at length with a couple of people(both poor blacks) who had fled from Zim due to the situation that Mugabe has caused, really sad bullshit.

In Maun I also stopped by John Catlitz's office, but he was out hunting. I did meet one of his PHs, a giant bear of a man. His name slips my mind but I wrote it down in my journal, a hell of a nice guy. Kind of neat that in that one small area near the airport you have the headquarters of Catlitz's firm along with Ker and Downey and Safari South.

I guess my point is that I am far from uninformed on the current situation. I spent five weeks during July and August traveling through Botswana, Zambia and Namibia, alone on local transport. I spoke to the people on the ground, regardless of color, and kept notes of what they had to say. The truth is their stories match much of what we read and post on this forum about the inept govenments screwing up time and again and the poorest blacks and the whites(all whites) are the ones who suffer the most.

I hope you see me in a different light. I would hate to introduce myself to you at a safari show and have you spit in my face, all because of a little mis-understanding!

Jason

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
Many if not all Southern & Eastern African countries are actually worse off since colonialism ended at least economically.

Make that ALL and I include the Northern tier countries as well. jorge

JB

Maybe if you have the second sentence first it would reflect what you wanted it to be.

Thank god all the racist governments are gone from Africa. As bad as things are now in Zimbabwe and other African countries, those government policies will never be as unfair as apartheid.

Hi all,
I know I should not get into this but I can't help myself.Just my humble oppinion that we are all helpless to do anything about the african culture which leads to african politics. I think the best we can do is go there and hunt and take hard currency and good will into the countries. Thousands and thousands of our tax dollars have gone to Africa in "Aid and Relief" and it has all disapeared in that black hole of African culture. Africa and African's will survive. I'm not so sure about my country though. We have plenty to worry about here.

In fact I don't even think we can change the culture in New Orleans that leads to the politics of New Orleans. We have plenty of African culture there and it looks to me like that is going to be another hole into which we will pour unlimited amounts of tax dollars into with out changing much.

Oh well off to dreaming about another african hunt.

J. Brown, Nitro X,

The internet is a cold mindless creation that does not reflect humor nor sarcasim, and many times the written word takes the spoken word out of context....

Never the less, I apoligize profusely to you both for my ignorant behavior and lack of humor to read the posts with a clear mind...not by first screw up however...

At any rate I apoligize for my ignorant, idiotic assinine post and will try to be more alert to humor and sarcasim in the future, this one just hit a nerve as its a subject thats has bothered me since the advent of change in Africa that gained nothing but sadness for a nation of many races and colors, and all have suffered equally..

Ray,

Apologizing? What is wromg with you, dude?!

Several years ago in Zim I was talking to one of the black locals and he said that he knew the USA would come rescue them. I didn't have the heart to tell him it wasn't going to happen.

For all the hate America spewed by the US liberal press (communist press), when the shit hits the fan, there are a lot of people around the world that know their only salvation is the potential help from the USA. They may not always or ever get it, but it is their only hope.

Mugabe: Zimbabwe to Take Stake in Mines [From Yahoo! News]

UNITED NATIONS - Zimbabwe's embattled and isolated leader said Friday that his government will take a stake in privately operated mining enterprises in the mineral-rich southern African nation, but he does not intend to nationalize the industry as he has commercial farmland.

In a wide-ranging, exclusive interview with The Associated Press, Robert Mugabe claimed his people — including hundreds of thousands made homeless by a recent controversial slum clearance and others facing famine because of disastrous land reform — are "very, very happy.

On a national level, Mugabe said his government would take a share in private mining enterprises because it wants its people to benefit from their own natural resources. He said he expects companies currently mining in Zimbabwe, including the multinational Anglo American, to understand that desire.

"We just want to be partners. We are not doing anything unusual, and this is the practice in many countries," he said.

Zimbabwe mines coal, chromium ore, asbestos, gold, nickel, copper, iron ore, vanadium, lithium, tin and platinum group metals as well as diamonds, emeralds and semiprecious stones.

"What we intend to do is for the state to have a stake in the production of some of our minerals — gold, platinum, diamonds," he said. "We are behind countries like Botswana and Namibia."

Mugabe also said he has signed several agreements for state-owned Chinese companies to mine in Zimbabwe under joint ventures with his government.

He said he has no plans to nationalize the industry, as he had threatened to do when he first was elected and dreamed of created a one-party Marxist state.

Full story here -- I have edited out a few paragraphs.

Poor deluded 'Robber'. The more he steals the less cashflow he finds he makes.

With his and his ministers actions and comments, he has succeeded in killing off all investment in farming and agriculture, commercial and industrial enterprises, safari companies (?), and now mining. International businesses around the world have seen it all before in Africa. Some insane tinpot little black dictator thinking they can steal with impunity, nationalising or demanding 51% shares in enterprises. It either drives the price way down or the money flow stops.

The Chinese are obviously aiming to make a big attempt to move into Zimbabwe, Namibia and South Africa for resources and strategic advantage. Maybe the Western Alliances will eventually wake up that the Horn of Africa kept safe during the Cold War is again becoming threatened. Maybe then they will do something about these idiotic black leaders.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
Poor deluded 'Robber'. The more he steals the less cashflow he seems to make.

Once he manages to take over everything, he may end up with nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
As bad as things are, they will never be as unfair as apartheid. Thank god racist governments are gone from Africa.

Jason

Jason

In fact if you or anyone else thinks apartheid per se is gone from the WORLD please THINK AGAIN ...

Apartheid in SA (in theory) was a good thing as principly it attempted to give (each racial group tribe) or whatever label we care to use control over their own affairs EXCEPT of cource the black tribes were starting off at a distinctive disadvantage and the system was manipulated by the encumbent polititians as they all do, regardless of colour.

Just leaving SA aside for one moment, only a FOOL cant see that (worldwide) all groupings of people are wanting to be master of their own destiny based either upon race tribe religion nationality or any other differnce you can conceive //

To name just a few instances

IRAQ - sunni, shite, kurd
India - hindu, seik
Ireland - Catholic, Protestant
Zimbabwe - shona, matabele
SA - Zulu, africanners, rooineks, and the other dozen or so tribes
USA - red states, blue states,
USA - federal government, state governments - Katrina highlighted some problems when the chips were down
WORLD - men, women, liberals, conservatives, greenies, hunters, rich, poor, etc etc etc

The list goes on and on

The OLD Soviet Union tried to hold it together, what happined in the end.

And as for the United Nations, that is one of the biggest corrupt inept money wasting cock ups the world has known since the end of WW2 all in the name of trying to make us all the same ... IT DONT WORK MATE (-:



If we run through many many other countries of the world the people are still divided upon tribal religious or racial differences AND our (supposed intelligent western leaders) in particular want us ALL to be the same, it might sound good in theory to all be the same BUT in reality it (wont happen in the next 50 + years or IF EVER as we all know that this separation of humans has been going on since before the year DOT so what gives you or others any hope that us humans can change it ...

Call me pessimistic if you want BUT untill you or anyone else can prove me wrong universally I will not change my point of view, humans by their very nature always want to think their grouping is right and want to control their own affairs, hell that is human nature and within our make up.

To state the obvious ///

EVEN countries per se cant agree on the meaning of a single WORD being terrorism, so how the hell can we ever get on collectively if a word cant even be agreed upon and divides us

Peter

Well that about sum's it up in a nutshell

quote:

Originally posted by Harry Jezzard:

... Your comments on the officers refusing to go to the old Rhodesia are akin to the contents of a male scrotum ...

Harry, are you just being a redundant twerp or do you really think there is a female scrotum?

quote:

In fact I don't even think we can change the culture in New Orleans that leads to the politics of New Orleans. We have plenty of African culture there and it looks to me like that is going to be another hole into which we will pour unlimited amounts of tax dollars into with out changing much.

Now this is a revelation !!!

When I visited New Orleans in 1994, a french guy (USA citizen decendant from the early settlers that was settled in a mosquito infested area by the government of the day) told me that they have survived against the odds in the USA, but that with the increasing black numbers in the city, it is causing the city to go to the dogs. I just listened, as I was stunned by the stories he told me. As he was a wise old man, he gave me a chilling wakeup call as to what we can expect in South Africa

Chris Bekker

Whenever there is a mix of ignorance, anger and flawed ideology this type of thing will happen:

Starvation, looting, killing, chaos...Zimbabwe, Bhagdad....New Orleans....It can and will happen anywhere the aforemention exists in the majority.

Words of the day:

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Political correctness is to blame for this geo-political debacle.

All men are created equal....but, the don't end up that way!

Once the world begins to accept that statement, we'll all be a lot better off.

JW