I have recently gotten a 404 Jeffrey rifle. It seems it is a rare .419 barrel instead of a standard 423. Standard ammo nor bullets are reccomended. What are my options? I really don't want to rebarrel it. It is an old vintage gun not shot much, for obvious reasons. Rerifle the existing barrel to 423? Estimated expense? Custom made bullets/ammo? Keep it as is or sell it as a rare collectors piece? Return it to the source as a misrepresentation( bought with the understanding that standard ammo would be it's proper diet)? Suggestions please. "D"

"D"

Do you want to hunt with the rifle? If so, what?

My first thoughts were for you hard cast your own bullets. You may also be able to get a swage die to reduce the standard .423 bullets to .419..

Regards

Pete

D Hunter,

Some European makers still make .419 barrels, as I have found out myself!

We have a brand new custom built 404 on a Sako 75 action, and it has a .419 barrel.

It is not too much of a problem for me, as we make our own bullets, and can make them any diameter I wish.

I have heard, but have not tried it myself, that one can shoot .423 ammo in the .419 barrels without any hassle.

May be some of our friends who might have had first hand experience with this might shed some light on it.

.004 is less critical in a large bore than in small bore. If the rifle were mine, I would try a Hawk soft jacketed bullet in a light load. Look for any signs of danger and take it from there.

Finding a collector grade rifle that is suitable for use is often a challenge. I always caution folks to ask a lot of questions and make sure there is a suitable return policy. I personally test fire every rifle in my collection and advise any potential owners accordingly.

You could get a ring die to swage your bullets down .004". I am sure that they work with lead core soft points but I do not know if they work well on steel jacketed solids.
Give Fred Zeglin at www.z-hat.com a call. He makes custom dies as well as gunsmithing.

Ten years ago , you didn't surf the net ,then you believe what it's stamped on the barrel ( .404 ) , you buy/ reload ammo , with the right bullet ( .423 ") and hunt all over the world , maybe it's not the best accuracy but should be no problem to use it as Kurt said .004 it's not a big problem in a large bore .

Daniel

You could shoot GS Custom bullets in it if you can get them and you might give Mike Brady a call at Northfork bullets the .423 with pressure rings might work in it....I have accidently shot .423 bullets in a 419 bore and I got away with it. Bridger bullets will make you some .419 I bet.

However, it might be wise to return it, as you will probably not be satisfied with it in the long run...I wouldn't...

So how does one go about load data for shooting 423 bullets in a 419 barrel. Wait I forgot. VERY CAREFULLY. Anybody care to give me a starting load? In this situation are slow powders better? Thanks. "D"

For a light load I would take any data that Ray gives you and cut it in half.

I'll look up some of my notes later tonight for you.

In the past I have reloaded for tight bore 404's and used woodleigh bullets. Using loads that would yield original 404 Jeffery speeds (400 gr. @ 2125 f/s) the pressure rise was not an issue and the velocity increase was less than 100 f/s on average. You will get higher pressure and more speed out of the tight bore than you would in the .423 bore, however, the pressure was always acceptable and less than trying to run the 404 at RWS velocities through the .423 bore as some on the forum are want to do!
Another option is to pull the existing barrel and replace it with a modern barrel with duplicate contour and go on with it.You have not destroyed anything that can not be replaced at some later date.

D Hunter,

This is one of the reasons I recently decided the .404 Dakota is my favorite American chambering; you can get factory ammunition if you want to shoot that.

Some references I have seen say that the original Brit combination was a .418" barrel with .423" bullets, but those are at the original 2,125 fps MV and 16 tons pressure loading. These were both softs and solids by the way.

If you want to keep this rifle original I would organize bullets for it, or shoot loads that approximate the original. Lead bullets are pretty easy, as are a set of dies to reduce diameter of jacketed bullets. A nice, new Lothar Walther .423" barrel would work too. It all depends on what your threshold of pain is.

jim dodd

Gator it is a Cogswell and Harrison. It sure looks like someone could peel off 3 or 4 thousandths for me. Do you have contact info for the previously mentioned indevidual? How much for such a job? It is a nice piece but I got too much in it now, if you know what I mean. Thanks "D"

D,

The new Rifle magazine arrived today, and there is an article on freshening bores. There is a sidebar with four or five who gunsmiths do this work.

If you don't get the magazine, I will post the details.

jim

D. Hunter

Try this link. Good info and contact information.

http://www.gunmaker.net/jgsreamerholder.html

Cliff LaBounty 1 360 599 2047

[ 10-10-2003, 00:44: Message edited by: Gator1 ]

I don't have any experience with the 404, but my opinion is you would hardly be able to tell the difference. Ackley did a lot of work years ago with oversized bullets and as I remember his finding was that engraving/swaging the bullet was almost a trivial effort compared to the total pressure.

From a personal standpoint, I recently bought a mint Steyr M95 straight pull. This rifle uses a pretty unique bullet of .329". I read a lot about buying two or three swaging dies and bringing bullets down .003" at a time. A lot of people paper patch. I ordered a cheap .329" bullet swaging die from Lee for about $15 and did it in one pass in a rather cheap press. Simply lubed the bullet and popped it through. These were .338 X-bullets. To put it in perspective, the effort needed was much less than that needed to resize once fired, lubed .416 Taylor cases. This amount of force couldn't possibly have an effect on a rifle operating at 45000 psi. On a percentage basis, .009" on a .338 is way less than .004 on a .424. I'd just load some starting loads and test, then work up.

In my mind, swaging the bullets first could lead to a bigger problem, that of getting a resizing or crimping die to work. That much difference in diameter could lead to some awfully loose bullets if you swage the bullets first.

I don't think there is really any need to alter the barrel. I have little doubt that you could work up a successful load with .423 bullets, provided they are conventional softs and solids.

As for it being a "rare" .419 bore, welcome to the world of older British rifles. Groove diameter in these vary - a lot. For example, my .450/.400 3" Nitro Express, which Kynoch usually loaded with .410-.411 diameter bullets, has .408 grooves. My .400/.360 2 3/4" Purdey Nitro Express, which Kynoch loaded with .367 diameter bullets, has .3635 grooves. A correspondent of mine has one that is .369. With older English rifles, this is COMMON. You simply don't know what you have until you slug the bore. The good news is that it usually isn't diffcult to live with.

I've fired factory ammunition, both current and old Kynoch, in both rifles with zero problems, but I usually use handloads. I've never handloaded .411 bullets in the .400 since Woodleigh, and others, offer 400 grain .408 bullets. I originally used standard .366 9.3mm bullets in the .360 with perfect results. Later on I got a reducing die from Corbin and tried the same bullets sized down to .363 in the previously developed loads. Other than a very slight improvement in accuracy, which was already excellent, there is no detectable difference.

If load development with .423 bullets makes you nervous, a reducing die is an option and is simple and fast to use. Sizing down conventional bullets, including RWS and Woodleigh steel-jacketed solids, from .366 to .363 requires about the same amount of pressure on the handle as full length resizing a case so .004 with a .423 bullet will be a snap. If you go this route you might want to order custom loading dies to avoid the problem with loose necks that Art referred to above, although standard dies might work. I use .003 undersize bullets with standard die sets for both rifles, but I cheat. I toss the decapping/expander ball assembly (I never use them with rifle dies over .30 anyway) and decap with a hand held punch. With both die sets this results in a neck diameter that is perfect for the .003 undersize bullets. I don't crimp and have never had a bullet move in the case under recoil in either rifle.

Good luck.
---------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

At last year's SCI Convention I found myself in conversation with the barrelsmith at Well's Sport Shop. He will rebore barrels. He had begun to think that it was a dying art because a couple of years ago, he was one of three smiths he knew who still did it. Becoming somewhat alarmed by the knowledge, he began a search of North America for others. When I spoke with him, he had located about eleven (I think!) others. If you are really concerned with the .004" difference, I would contact Wells in Tucson (right, guys?) and ask.

There is a problem in trying to open the grooves by .004". The trouble is that you have to match the groove width almost perfectly, as well as the twist (most 'smiths are not going to want to try this, as it is a high risk procedure). Most rebores are enough of an increase in diameter to allow cleaning up the old rifling and cutting fresh grooves. This usually involves at least .008 to .010 increase depending on the depth of the existing rifling and how much pitting is present.

My 404 has a .421 groove diameter, and I use .423 bullets. My 333 Jeffery was made with a groove diameter of .329, and had been well used since 1908 with .333 diameter bullets. My 375-2 1/2 Flanged NE H&H double is on the other side of the coin with almost .379 bores, and my 375-2 1/4 Rimless NE is even larger at .381, so these vintage rifles can vary widely while still maintaining good accuracy and safety. All part of the fun of working with these old calibers and rifles.

Jim

Weatherby once posted some strength data and I remember it almost word for word.

They fired a 7MM weatherby mag in a mauser action chambered for .270 Weatherby and totally destroyed the action. This is .007 oversize.

However the MarkV wasn't fazed when the same test was applied to it.

.423/.419 is about 1% oversize and .284/.277 is about 2.5% oversize for relative comparison.

Further I was told when asked about danger if a manufacturer let bullets out of the factory even .001 oversize, that they intentionally made those bullets and the pressure barrels showed very little signs of extra pressure. I'd have thought it would be a serious problem....and it just isnt.

I'd still have someone make you a sizing ding with a 7/8-14 thread and push them through the die.

i had a 404 m98 f.n 18 years ago and fired 44 magnum projectiles out of it with no problem ,did the job on roos for dog meat

Slingster, You got contact info? I got the same name from La Bounty, mentioned earlier. La Bounty said he wouldn't touch that kind of job. If it needs a complete rebore OK But to just open .004, no dice. I wonder if it could be rebored for the first 10-15 inches and left as is the rest of the way. According to the A-Square manual, the pressure drops dramatically after the first 10 inches or so. This might give a bit more late push with slow powders. Maybe I am being a bit silly but that thought has crossed my mind. Thanks for your ideas. "D"

Slingster,
Thanx for the clarification.

D,
Just my opine here, but ya throwing the baby out with the bath water. The simplest best thing to do is get a reducing die and make em to fit. Or better yet get hawk bullets to make you a special run of the caliber you need. They do that kind a thing all the time.

Don't hack up that fine old rifle. It is really very simple to get your rifle to shoot'n what it was meant to shoot. It sure will be a Hell of lot cheaper!

Once again just my opine.