I hear this a lot, A PH is supposed to pack a bigger rifle than the client, he should have a double, 500 x 600 at 2400 FPS and on and on....

I don't buy off on that theory all together! I figure its up to me to stop ole M'Bogo or Simba and that I should carry a rifle capable of such and that in "my case" is a 416 or 404 with which I feel completely competent to stop any animal on this earth..

I'm not at all convinced that a 600 whatchamacallit is the answer to stopping charges, I have stopped a few with proper bullet placement combined with proper bullets and a rifle that I can shoot..

If I need a gun to "turn" a charge then I'm in deep do-do to start with..I would opt for a brain shot and "turn" him upside down...So far its worked for me and I ain't likely to change my thinging...

Of even more interrest, since I have used the bigger guns on Buffalo, I observed exactly no difference what so ever overall, albiet I understand the 500 are more effective, they just have to be, but how much so is my question, and does it take the place of good shooting which I think many hunters are depending on...

Whats the opine of the masses???? Just trying to stir up some interresting conversation.

Interestingly enough, my PH backed me up with my .470NE (Federal factory loads with TBBCs and SHSs) with his Remington 700 in .416 RM, handloaded with max loads of a local RSA powder behind 400-grain Woodleigh Weldcore SPs...and I reloaded them for him on his press with his components just before we took off! He never had to use them, however, as my buff went down in under 60 yards and two minutes with one TBBC to the top of the heart.

I think a PH would do just like me ....... use an adequate gun that he shoots well. If that's a .375 or .416, that would be fine with me. I'd probably draw the line if he was trying to use, say, a .338 when we're after buffalo. Short of that, I'd agree that you didn't need a .600 whatchamacallit.

Hi Ray,

Not much to stir here, I agree with you 100%. The 600 watchamadoodles are a bunch of hype. A brain shot with just about any .45 is all that is needed. Anything bigger can be a problem because recovery time is increased therefore a second shot comes slower. And when the $hit hits the fan a second shot is nice.

Like I said in the MS thread, I was surprised to see on those videos the absolute lack of reaction of the beast to an apparent non-lethal shot. So I agree that bullet placement is the thing. I'd rather have a PH that can hit the brain or spine everytime, than one who can throw big lead in the general direction. The latter I can do myself! It has been proven by many in the past that you don't necessarily need the real big boomers to accomplish the former.

As far as carrying enough gun to do the job myself...to that I say "amen".

Frans

I've noticed a big difference between shooting (big) Dangerous Game with a .375 compared to any of the 416s and bigger, but I believe the other important factor is using the correct bullet construction for the animal.

As to calibre for the PH, well I personally use a .500 and have had no problems with stopping charges at close quarters. (although I try to avoid as many charge situations as possible by never hurrying a follow up etc..... this has resulted in my having far fewer charges than some PHs) My previous rifle was a .416 Weatherby and that gave me a couple of "interesting episodes". But I believe a lot of the problem there was that the bullet was just travelling too fast to be as effective as I would have liked.....especially at close range.

I reckon the best advice a client can be given (if he asks) is to shoot as large a calibre as he can shoot comfortably and competently and use the right bullet for the job, as there's no such thing as one single type of bullet that will do everything best.

[ 11-17-2003, 22:24: Message edited by: shakari ]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz..........

Oh, sorry.

If we could brain them everytime, just use a 7mm Mauser with solids.

But how many PH's can do that, much less the tourist hunter?

Ray - take this to the forum at African-Hunter.com.

If you were immune to recoil and had a deranged, 1,500lbs. dagaboy, bearing down on you at close quarters, which gun would you prefer to have in your hands, a .375 with a 300 grain bullet or a .505 with a 600 grain bullet? There you go. Ideal shot placement doesn't always happen. Use the biggest gun you handle well. The difference may save your bacon.

We are all involved in this sport for fun and pleasure. If one fellow feels it is fun to hunt buffalo with a 9.3 x 62, while another prefers to use a 577 nitro, I have no objection. We should each do what enhances our enjoyment of the sport (as long as it's legal).

No one is arguing that big bullets take the place of marksmanship. But when put in the right place, aren't big bullets better?

Some people seem to assume that when bigger calibers are involved, that means poor marksmanship will be involved as well. A person who makes such an assumption may not have the experience or ability to shoot the big bores well, and thus should limit himself to the small calibers.

As a dangerous game hunting client I know I am much more comfortable knowiing that my PH has his 470 NE double ready to back up my .416. I am going to make sure I place my shot well but I know that he can place two of his shots very well and fast to stop a charge if necessary.

CFA

The topic is the "Pro's Rifle". 90% of the pros I know have moved up from their .416's, after an incident of two with ele, for the most part, and buffalo, to a lesser degree. The last line of defense should be all it can be. Many pro's have used a .375, or perhaps less, for their entire career, without incident. They gambled and won, is all I make of it.

I agree with Nickudu. A .375 is a pretty good calibre for a client, but it's nowhere near enough gun for a PH.

I'm not a professional .. I'm not even a strong amateur, by some standards but I think my opinion stands on pretty firm ground when I say that the .375 is fine "DG" medicine for the visiting hunter but a .416 is surely better. I think the "DG" professional should be using a .458 Winchester Magnum, or better still, a .458 Lott, as a minimum ... bigger if he can ... a double if he can.

Ray Atkinson,

Interesting topic.

While I enjoy hunting with my big bores like the 500 Nitro, the question concerning smaller bores is a good one for intellectual discussion.

One buffalo I shot with the 500 Nitro using solids ran about 80 yards and dropped without any other rounds being fired. The next buffalo took a 500 from the same box of ammo and the chase was on for about an hour. This second buffalo absorbed another ten well-placed solids before dropping.

Don't think too many folks would argue that a 500 Nitro Express with 570 grain solids is inadequate for buffalo. But on any given animal with any given round, one might have a bad day.

In the first case, the PH was carrying a 465 Westley Richards. In the second case, the PH was carrying a 458 Win Mag. In both, the backups were smaller bore than the 500.

Is a 375 H&H suitable for buffalo ? My brother broke a shoulder in a fall in Africa some years ago and did not get treatment for nearly a month. Today, he can shoot a 375 H&H comfortably, but a 458 Lott is less pleasurable. Should he forego buffalo because he now uses a 375 H&H ? (He also uses a 7x57 1895 Mauser with 175 Nosler Partitions on wildebeest. They tend to drop dead.)

Why should a client hunter expect the PH to do his shooting (stopping, killing) for him ? Have never had a PH fire a round during one of my hunts.

Practice with what you think is suitable and then take responsibility for your own work.

Hammer

[ 11-18-2003, 00:30: Message edited by: Hammer ]

I've gotta say that solids were (IMO) the wrong choice of bullet there. I reckon the only time a client should ever have a solid in his rifle is when he's following up a wounded animal.

...... but that's just my opinion. Bullet choice debates have been going on around campfires and elsewhere ever since firearms were invented and long may they continue!!

Shakari, et al,

While I have always hunted as I wanted to...

All the PHs I have been around find the debate between solids and softs on buffalo interesting while around the campfire. When one actually starts the final approach, the PHs I have used want solids in the chambers. They all seem to want holes on both sides of the buffalo leaking blood and air.

While I may concur with you about a soft being a better choice for the first round on buffalo, I also defer to the PH's expertise as they may have seen a few more buffalo shot than I. The PH and I have an agreement that the PH will not shoot except under extra-ordinary circumstances, which have not occurred as of yet though some observers may have debated it. I guess part of that agreement is that I use solids as they request. We might both have to do the follow up if things go wrong.

But, then again, I have hunted buffalo with a PH that used a 45/70 Co-Pilot lever action rifle with solids for his backup rifle.

Hammer

Believe John Burger of "Horned Death" used a 318 Westley Richards and a 404 Jeffery to shoot his over thousand buffalo. Also made reference to a 333 Jeffery. Might have these wrong.

Hammer

If I get my 585 Nyati built before my next buffalo hunt, will I have to get a different PH since none of the one's I have hunted with have a bigger rifle than the 585 ?

Hammer

One morning very very early I woke up with the camp staff. I took a quick shower while they lit the morning campfire. When done I sat by the fire alone with my thoughts. It was a very pleasant moment or six. Some time later the two PH's in camp woke up and joined me as my hunting partner stayed in bed.

The conversation turned to buffalo hunting. They were both trying somewhat to get me to buy a hunt. (I have never hunted buffalo and don't as of yet have a weapon to use in such an endeavor.) So I asked them about what gun I should be thinking about getting. Of course two different answers, one .375 and the other .458. After that I was out of the loop. The basic argument was a .375 was all that was need to kill a buffalo but it was entirely too "little" gun when things got dicey. I guess that is a difference as old as buffalo hunting.

Mercifully, the "conversation" ended when my hunting partner had unseen arisen from his slumber, grabbed his shotgun and went on an impromptu francolin hunt. If you've ever been "bounced" out of a deep sleep by one of their "siren calls", you know what he was feeling. Been there done that!

[ 11-18-2003, 02:08: Message edited by: odie401 ]

Ray
Good topic.
I think the best rifle for a PH in dangerous game country is without question [in my mind] a double rifle.
Any Nitro calibre from 450/400 and up would do.
I do believe "the bigger the hole the better". So the biggest double you can CARRY and SHOOT would be the best.
I would feel perfectly happy with my 450 No2, but I see where a 470 might be the best all round choice, as I am guessing 470 ammo is the easiest of the Nitro's to find.
As for charge stopping, any of them with a solid to the brain will work, and even a 600 Nitro to the body probably won't work quick enough.
From all acounts the 577 and 600 are more effective on elephants in thick cover, but their weight and cost place them in world of their own. A 500 might be the best answer for a PH who does a lot of elephant guiding.

I also think a double rifle is the best clients rifle [for a client that devotes the time to learn how to use one to their utmost].
If you just cannot use iron sights just scope your double.

I think that since clients and PHs carry rifles for different reasons it only makes sense that they carry different rifles.

Assuming you are there on vacation yours is to shoot the animal at a distance when it is undisturbed. The Ambush.

Assuming that the PH is a great shot and of steadfast character his rifle is to save your life and his life and the staff's lives. The Cavalry.

If yours is on the heavy side to do the job that's okay. If his is on the light side to do the job, that could be not okay. Did you ever see John Wayne ride a Shetland Pony in Fort Apache?

The PH's rifle should do the job no matter what the circumstances. A half inch bullet will do any backup work better than a 3/8 inch bullt.

I am a low rank amateur with one African safari, and I chose a .375 H&H for plains game, and a .416 Rigby for cape buffalo. Only one shot was required for the cape buffalo, plus one more insurance shot after he was dead.

I could have taken a 500 A-Square and a .375 Weatherby, my first thought, but my other two rifles were more socially acceptable for the PH's I encountered.

Shot placement is the thing, and bullet construction is equally important, then the size of the hole and the ballistics follow.

I think we are on the same page, all of us except one paragraph is not on my page: I just cannot see putting a scope on any double rifle, except the small bores, but then I would rather use a bolt action.

Ray of course has got it right, as do Nickudu, Mickey1, and others, and I don't see any contradictions, just different tastes and tolerances, including the scoped double rifle.

I am a hopeless gunnut, but I am going to have to settle down when old age arrives.

Ray has got it figured out in retirement.

My last hurrah may well be a .404 Jeffery on an FN or Oberndorf Mauser, petite And authoritative ... right after I convert my .510/460 WBY to a .510/.505 Gibbs ... Whose to care about the bore vs. the headstamp? The rifle would be perfect with .510/.505 Gibbs on the barrel.

And the wonderful Merkel 470 NE double must draw buffalo blood.

But if one rifle had to do it all, it would be tough to decide between a .375 Wby and the .416 Rigby, and the .404 Jeffery, .416 Taylor, or .416 Remington ... all adequate.

If I could find a 300 grain FN monometal solid in .375 caliber for use in the .375 RUM equivalent of the .375/404, and any good 300 grain soft ... well, a PH using that could back me up without raising my eyebrows in the least, no matter the game.

I am hopeless ... just my hot air for this endless discussion.

Ray,

Anyone who tells you "a bigger gun kills better" has not seen enough animals being killed.

I really don't care what my PH carries as his back rifle, as long as he can use it.

So far, none of my PHs had to use his rifle to stop a charge, I killed all my dangerous animals with a lowly 375

As Pierre said in Tanzania "using lethal bullets" stops any charge before it even starts.

The only thing I would add to these posts is that for me, I would alsways prefer a bolt to a double in a dangerous situation - unless the dangerous situation is happening a few feet from me. Anything over 10-15 yards I would select a bolt! Knowing you have 5 .458 Lott bullets to shoot in 15-20 seconds is better than 4 .470 bullets in the same period IMO

Happy hunting!

Nickudu,

If you feel you need a 500 or 600 caliber bullet to kill a buffalo or an elephant, please go ahead and use it.

Personally, I have used 375 and 416 caliber rifles to shoot elephants and buffalo, and have never, ever, seen any difference in their killing power.

I have also seen elephants and buffalo being shot with a 460 Weathery, and again, if not hit in a vital area, it makes no difference what you hit them with.

I don't believe any of what is written in old books about the stunning power of larger calibers. In some I have read, they go as far as saying an elephant hit in the head with a 700 will go down for 10 minutes, with a 600 for 5 minutes, and with a 375 it will just shake its head and walk away.

Again, this is a load of bloody cods whalop.

I don't feel I need more than a .338 to hunt buffalo but that has little to do with the acceptance of common sense. Perhaps you would benefit from the use of a wider spectrum of calibers, as I have, before spewing such absurdities. I will not comment further.

[ 11-18-2003, 14:10: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Now my original discussion was not on what caliber is capable of killing Buffalo, I am perfectly content to shoot buffalo, or anything else with a 9.3x62, and yes I suspect there are better calibers. I have used the 458 Lott and 505 Gibbs and I have not seen that much difference in them and a 375 H&H if the RIGHT BULLET OF PROPER CONSTRUCTION IS USED.......

I always prefer a solid, particularly in the high grass, because I have two holes spewing blood waist high and therefore I can track and watch the grass at the same time, something I cannot do with a little nose blood...just my opine on that....I also believe the smaller a caliber the more valuble the solid is in killing Buffalo.

But, the original thread was what should a PH use as a back up, I simply don't think of a PH as the superman of the bush, he is a falible human beingm, just like us and he should also use what he can shoot best and I have seen a whole truckload of PH that flinched,with the big bores but God forbid they would admit it and yes I could name them but I won't....

The point being that the same rules apply to the PH as to the hunter and thats the bottom line....I've heard enough about the Ph has to carry a whatchamacallit to back me up..I want him to carry one he can shoot, even if its a 30-06 with a solid....

If He, the Ph can hit a beer can 4 out of 5 shots at 50 yards with his 600 then thats the gun for him, same for the client, if they cannot then they should both be shooting lesser calibers, and depending on bullet construction to do their bidding...

I'd rather have Saeed backing my play with his 375 than several PHs I know with their 470s because I have seen all of them shoot! I strongly suspect that Nick, Shakari and Jeffe would with their monster guns suit me as well, but I would make'm prove it first, sorry guys

All this makes since to me. And I have not hunted with a PH that I did not force, or trick him into shooting before we hunted..I want to know who's standing beside me...Its been an eye opener I guarentee you that...Actually some to the best hunter PHs are not necessairly the best shots and visa versa...Welcome to the real world..

In any of these discussions, we need to keep a few grains of salt handy.

Yeah, and sometimes a little vasaline would help

........actually Ray, I reckon you've got a very good point there.... I've gotta say that I've never been asked (in 14 years of PHing) by a client to prove I can shoot before we go out hunting... Perhaps I should make a point of letting a few rounds off at the range where the client can see it happen.

Although I still prefer clients to use a slow expanding bullet for at least the first shot... but it's their hunt, they pay the bills, so they can use whatever they choose.

And of course you're dead right when you say that no PH is superman and we all make mistakes. At least that's what my ex-wives tell me!!!!

As long as we are stateing opinions only, here's mine!

Like Ray, I've never bought into the thinking that [the PH will pull your nuts out of the fire, so all you need is a BB gun]! I believe that the client hunter should carry the biggest rifle "HE" can shoot properly. USE ENOUGH GUN is not just idle pipe dreaming, but sound advice! Enough gun, is different, for different people, and again, it is the biggest thing HE can shoot properly, as long as it is legal to hunt DG with. The same advice goes for the PH, what he shoots best, is what he should use!

As far as the PH useing a 375 H&H, or what ever, just being lucky when getting the job done for many years, is a line of thinking I do not agree with! It is evident HE has the formula, with HIS chosen rifle. No matter what he uses, if he fails, I'm going to have the means to pull HIS nuts out of the fire!

For the guy who thinks a bolt rifle full of 458 LOTTS is best for a 15-25 yd charge is only going to get off one shot from a bolt rifle on a lion chargeing from less that 30 yds, while a man with a double will get two! After that it matters not how much ammo he has in his rifle, it may as well be in camp!

Personally Use a 9,3. Everytime I have a close scrape I go out and get a .404 or a .450. Carry it, don't shoot it nearly enough and use the 9,3 except have a heavy in reserve. Never use the heavy, sell it when short of loot, have a close scrape and repeat the cycle (three times now).

An elephant falls that much quicker when BRAIN shot with a .470 or .458 Lott (full loads) than with a .458 Win or .375. Even when facing a charge this is of little consiquence unless it is in the jess, when you only get a target when the animal is within a couple of paces of you. At five yards a 9,3 is very satisfactory charge stopper on elephant. At two - NO. Been there, still alive, but only because God still has plans for me ( Only reason I can see anyway).

On buff, a .505 gibbs or .500 Schuler makes a .460 weatherby look aneamic on a good chest shot from broadside. From front on...? I recon a tripple tap from my F.N. 7.62 rifle has worked better than any one shot from a big bore I have ever seen!

Also though, when facing a charge, the rifle in your hands never, ever feels powerful enough. It like a fire fight with poacher. If you are carrying an F.N. in a contact you want the M.A.G. (gpmg). If you have the MAG you want a portable .50.

Excellent post. I have wondered about this for a long time, but don't have the personal experience to give me any confidence that I know the answer.

I do believe, as many have said, that, at least ideally, one should have the biggest rifle one can handle and shoot well for dangerous game.

I have never shot an elephant or rhino. Also, I haven't shot that many buffalo and have never shot them with anything bigger than a .458 Lott.

I shot three last summer with the Lott. I must admit, I was looking for a dramatic difference when compared with results I have seen and hear of with the .375. But I didn't see it.

My first heart shot (with a soft nose) was enough to kill all of these buff, but none of them just gave up the ghost and dropped to the shot. They all ran quite a distance, and I shot the first one four more times with solids in the vitals while he ran and finshed the second one, who was down, with a solid through the spine at extremely close range. Only the last one ran into the elephant grass and died without a follow up.

I love the Lott, but I am going to get a bigger rifle. Two bigger rifles, in fact. I am having a .500 A-Square built--600 grs. at 2300 or so fps; and also a wildcat .550 Magnum--700 grs. at the same velocity.

On my next safari, I will definitely take one of them, and I may take both of them, along and see for myself if bigger is better. A .550 Mag. for my heavy, a .500 A-Square for my medium and a .375 for my light rifle.

It should be fun. Assuming, of course, that having the snot kicked out of me doesn't affect my ability to shoot the big ones.

Ray,

See the crap you have stirred up here! You got your wish.

A lot of this boils down to what is considered dangerous. Shooting buff or whatever at or over 100 yards is not dangerous, it's just target practice.

From what I have read, big deeds require big guns. And that come from guys that have more experience than anyone else around here.

W.D.M. Bell shot over 1000 elephant with a .275 Rigby (a/k/a 7X57) with 175 gr. solids. Most were one shot kills. I am NOT suggesting anyone try it, but bullet placement should be first priority.

Bell's accomplishments should be emblazoned across the ADG Forum, so none of use forget it, however irrelevant it may be.

[ 11-19-2003, 01:15: Message edited by: Will ]

Steve,
Clients never ask a PH to show them he can shoot, they take the booking agents word for it, its part of their trust in him, thus my actions....

Well its been fun, so I go now!!