Nobody, as far as I can tell, is suggesting that heavier caliber be substituted for bullet placement.

At least for me, the question is, with proper (but non-CNS) first shot bullet placement on a big, heavy, dangerous animal, like a cape buffalo, hippo, elephant or rhino, and with a good bullet, will a heavier caliber kill more quickly?

Seems like the answer ought to be yes. Simple physics. But my experience so far doesn't necessarily bear this out.

[ 11-19-2003, 02:39: Message edited by: mrlexma ]

I believe Capstick wrote that it isn't how accurate a ph is when zeroing a rifle or at the range that counts. It is his ablity to turn in a passable performance when the world is turning to sh!t. It is hard to test that talent until you've got the problem, and then it's too late.

My experiences with PH's is that they are working stiffs who, for the most part, have to use a rifle and ammo they can afford. Some might be fortunate enough to have a Dad who bought a double back in the day which they let them use, but today ammo for them is prohibitively costly. Most have to get by with a bolt action in 375 or 416 or 458. Preferably, a caliber that clients use and supply.

The CZ 602 in 416 Rigby or .458 Win is probably about perfect. Rebarreling it to 416 Remington might have an advantage of making ammo more available, and would let you shorten the barrel making it handier and lighter. Putting it in a laminate stock would solve splitting or breaking it. Ku-dude

[ 11-19-2003, 06:36: Message edited by: Ku-dude ]

Seen a lot of different rifles used by PHs.

Range from fine British doubles to an Interarms Mauser 458 in a Ramline stock. Another used a Mauser 7x57 in a Ramline stock. Neither Mauser had a scope. Also seen a PH use a 45/70 Marlin for buffalo.

Personally saw a PH run at breakneck speed to get to a spot where he could shoot a running wounded zebra for another hunting party which had radioed for assistance. The PH stopped the running zebra with one shot from his iron-sighted 7x57 Mauser using solids for a Texas heart shot. So, some PHs are mighty good shots and do a good job with whatever they can afford.

Know another PH who is on the lookout for a 30/30 Winchester. He views that a 30 caliber is a 30 caliber and the lever action is faster than a bolt for him.

Never noticed that PHs read a lot about guns or ammunition. Or tolerated others who had.

But believe all the PHs that I have hunted with knew their job and did it well.

Hammer

Back in '99 I was over in South Africa on a plains game hunt using a Ruger bolt gun chambered in 7-'06. We were driving along a road near the Crocodile River when several locals came out in the road asking for help. A buffalo had come across the river and run them out of the sugar cane field they were laying pipe in.

Two PH's were in the truck along with me. We went into the cane field with the 7-'06, a Colt peacemaker in 44 Remington and a crunchenticker in 45 ACP. My rifle was loaded with 175 grain Nosler Partitions.

We quickly found the beest, discussed our options, and let the buffalo make the decision for us. A buffalo can be outrun. At least that one was on that day. Although, I'm not sure he was really trying to get us.

We made it back to the truck and the buffalo came out of the field, passed the truck, and went into the river.

Came back later and waited for him to come back across, this time with 458 caliber rifles. We didn't see him again.

500,
I didn't flee, just said all I had to say on the subject as these subjects go south after so many posts, you know that! It was a stimulating converstation however. I doubt if it has an answer, just opines...

500, just like the old Dagga Boy he is, Ray's never far away! Always lurking in the weeds waiting to give you the horn!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He don't flee from much!

[ 11-20-2003, 22:34: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

I have a 375 H&H, 450 Ackley and a 500 A2. There is a definite difference in the reaction to the shot by these rifles. Also you can look at several buffalo shot with Saeed's 375 and then look at the bulls shot by Nickudu With shoulder shots compared the buffalo shot with Nick's 505 are just crushed with the shoulder shot, instantly very sick!!

Mike

How can it be that a question like this cannot be answered on an African game forum????

I don't think it does come down to opinion. I surface every now and then with this request.

-Someone start timing how far buffalo run after they are shot(anywhere with anything).
Once we have a few thousand reports we look at which calibres are creating trends.

That must be a start in seeing whether the bigger bores are making any difference for a given situation...

And if the smaller bores are winning we can say stuff like "yes but the hunters misplacing shots with rifles too powerful for them is why the biggest bores showed no advantage etc. etc"

We'll still have our pride intact

Karl.

Good evening to all,

It was surely great to read everyones views on this subject. Now I have to add my two cents worth.

The utmost work ethic of a Professional Hunter/Guide should in my opinion be the quickest and ethical hunting and cosequently killing of the animal be. secondly see that his client arrives back home with his skin intact to enjoy his trophies on the waal and the BS he can spin his buddies about what really happened out there.

With that in view a PH should carry at least a Big Bore calibre , which by all standards is a 45 calibre and 480 grains and/or bigger.

I have had the privilige to see Buffalo and elephant drop at one shot with clients , and I have winessed the complete opposite, in April the client was using Royal grade Holland in 375, but could not shoot a barn door from the inside, his father in law insisted on doing the back up with a 470 NE, me I was carrying my 450 Rigby, with Barnes Monlithics.

Client messed up, daddy back up with 470, also a mess up no vitals hit, Bull charged giving me the authorization to step in and one shot with the 450 dropped him at 20 paces, just for interest the 470 factory solids did not pentrate more than 8 inches on the frontal shots !!!!!!

450 solid recovered at back of skull

Would it have been the same with my 416 Rigby, possibly, but I have never ever doubted which rifle goes when the going gets tough, in the thick of mpoane brush with buffalo blood splattered everywhere, I want to be able to poke my finger in that hole.

Just a matter of interest , I like the question whether the PH could shoot,

Easy to verify, just ask him what calibre he hunts with normally, if he says the big guns for everyday hunting, your underpants will stay clean.

Karl and Walter,
Both interresting points of view that have been versed many times in the past and rightfully so, but I still say if the question had an answer, the arguement would not have lasted several centuries and still be going on.

And to see that it remains with us I suggest that Walters 416 is as effective a killer with a brain shot as the 470 or 500 N.E. and therein lies the crux of this thread, and the continueation of the subject.

I have seen only a few instant kills on Buff with shoulder shots but two of them were with a 375 and a 416 (I made this one )respectively, and the other with a 505 Gibbs...I have by the same token seen one buff take 13 hits with a 470 and 500, another take 9 hits with two .470s. I have these hunts on film. Most all of these hits were well placed except the first shot in both cases.. Once a buff gets pumped full of adrenaline nothing will kill or stop it immediately but a brain or spine shot IMO, and he can live a bloody long time shot to hell...I have not seen a full blown Buffalo bull charge turned with any rifle, only death will stop a buffalo IMO. I have seen an elephant turned with a head shots that did not kill her.

Nope, IMO this arguement will remain a long time to come, and after all of us are dead and burried, Bell with his 7x57 and 303 or Fletcher jamison with his 505, pick your side, let the games begin.

We may never know the answer, but some of us will be satisfied with our opinnions, and thats OK by me..I think I shall always be as comfortable with my 416 Rem Mauser 98 Searcy rifle as I am with my 470 double Searcy rifle, both suit me well enough for Govt. work.

I think the bottom line here may be, If you can shoot, you can get by with a little less gun [with the proper bullet of course]. If you cannot shoot a howitzer will not save you.
However it does feel good to be in a jam with a rifle that YOU have confidence in.

'Cause when you feel his breath in your face, is no time to worry about the power of your rifle, or the level of your skill.
Both better be up to the task.

[ 11-24-2003, 03:40: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

OK:
Couple questions. At what point does caliber start decreasing penetration?

Aren't the 600 and 700 Nitro express calibers supposed to have penetration problems, when using softs?

Some one mentioned earlier the use of 308 caliber semi-auto rifles, with multiple hits being very effective in killing elephants. I think a lot of poachers have proved this is effective, if not Politically Correct.

Wouldn't an M1A, with solids, or armour piercing ammo be an effective backup, allowing many, accurate, follow up shots, with excellent penetration?

I bought a 375, because some guy built a 4 bore, shoulder shot a buffalo, and it still went 60 yards before laying down. If 1800 grains of lead, at about 1500 fps won't drop a buffalo, with over a 1 inch hole, then I figured that nothing that I can shoot from my shoulder is going to do it, without great shot placement.

I think the real issue here is you have to be a great shot with the rifle you are using, to backup anyone, period.

Saeed is certainly that, and so he uses a 375, places his shots super accurately, and his game animals generally drop quickly.

I really kind of hate to say this, but the caliber differences we are arguing over are quite little, when compared to the size of the animals in questions. We are arguing about the effect of a hole between .375" and .700" really. In other words, we are arguing over caliber difference of .325". It seems to me that the animals must find that relatively inconsequentional, considering their size, and weight.

Given the ability of some buffalos to soak up large amounts of high velocity, large caliber bullets, isn't hitting the brain, or nervous system really the only thing that you can fire from your shoulder that's going to make a real stopping shot, short of a laws rocket?

Does it really make any difference with buffalo, or elephant, what caliber you use, as long as it's capable of reaching vital organs, through large amounts of tough flesh?

In other words, shouldn't we really be looking at what round penetrate the best, in a straight line, and exit, rather then the size of the hole?

I do find it kind of intresting that Ray would tell you on another topic that the 458 with 500 grain bullets is more effective then lighter calibers, at stopping lion charges.

HMMMM?????

gs

Gs, 600 occasionally had a bad rep for solids, due to the solids themselves breaking up.
If the 700 has any penetration problem I might guess people are regulating it for reduced loads once they realise how big its going to be.
The original loading was 2000fps but I don't think it is anymore.

Machine guns on game?The poachers apparently use auto bursts.I consider an auto burst to be like buckshot. Sometimes it all goes to shit and you get buggar all on the target for some reason.

Not sure what the relaibility of hunting semis are like but I have had my fair share of jams with ex-mil and mil stuff.
You would probably get away with it if it were legal.

Armour peircing bullets are no good as they are pointed and won't penetrate straight in flesh. You need roundnoses.

And get out and shoot something fluid with your 375 H&H soc! You'll see there are no .375 holes to be found in it.Just cavities, or busted containers where the fluid used to be mate.

The other stuff- pure penetration.
On a perfect shot fine.

But whose to say the 6" cavity from a 500 smasher won't clip vital organs that a 375 with its 3" cavity missed, on the same bad shot.

The 458 solid fishtailing badly(or failing totally) may still have the momentum to hit a shoulder sideways and break it, whilst the 338 fishtailing gets rejected promptly.?

Pure conjecture on my part-I've never shot these animals myself

But there must be a reason, depsite arguments between calibre prefs that everyone settled on 375/40 + cal nitro 100 years ago..

Karl.