quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
Single shots are for amateurs who think they know it all - enough said. When shooting any game you should respect the animal enough to have the means to kill it as fast as you can when things go wrong, which they will if you hunt enough. And I am not even thinking about saving your life in a tough spot.

Interesting quote above. I wonder how one saves himself and purposefully doesn't save the life of the guy standing next to him... or does your knowledge go so far as to know which person the elephant wants to stomp?... or maybe you run fast?

And Will, I think that if one must follow up a wounded lion with a single shot (one pull of a cord THIS SIDE TOWARDS ENEMY ), it should be a Claymore strapped to the chest... Having been amongst lions while they were killing, I would still crap even if I were in a Bradley with a chain gun.

I think of it as neither a stunt, nor "know it all," nor stupid to use my single shot. My hunt in 2009 will be for plains game and I'm not trying to prove anything, just have fun.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:

And Will, I think that if one must follow up a wounded lion with a single shot (one pull of a cord THIS SIDE TOWARDS ENEMY ), it should be a Claymore strapped to the chest... Having been amongst lions while they were killing, I would still crap even if I were in a Bradley with a chain gun.

One time a big male came into camp and killed a waterbuck doe. Nearly pure silence. But when when the rest of the crowd showed up, it was growling and fighting like screaming banshees.

It kept my attention.

I am going after Cape Buffalo with a slingshot. It will be the world record SCI slingshot buff. I know I'll at least have to draw blood and then my PH will shoot it with his big gun before it kills me.

Then I'll hunt bear, lion and other dangerous game with a slingshot. I'll be famous in SCI and Boone and Crockett record books!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Blank:
Very simple solution. Hunt with MS and you'll never have to fire a second shot, after he gets his in!

That is a good point. Let Sullivan shoot it in the gut a couple of days before you get there, so you are guaranteed a charge. Ask Mr. Raan about that sometime.

Who has conducted a test to prove that a single shot is slower than a bolt gun? And by how much? The only test I've heard of indicated that there is virtually no difference, and you can't short-stroke a SS.

quote:

2007 14:55 Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by reddy375:
Single shots are for amateurs who think they know it all - enough said. When shooting any game you should respect the animal enough to have the means to kill it as fast as you can when things go wrong, which they will if you hunt enough. And I am not even thinking about saving your life in a tough spot.


Interesting quote above. I wonder how one saves himself and purposefully doesn't save the life of the guy standing next to him... or does your knowledge go so far as to know which person the elephant wants to stomp?... or maybe you run fast?

And Will, I think that if one must follow up a wounded lion with a single shot (one pull of a cord THIS SIDE TOWARDS ENEMY ), it should be a Claymore strapped to the chest... Having been amongst lions while they were killing, I would still crap even if I were in a Bradley with a chain gun.

I worked for old Issac Bernard's (bvekenya's son) Panduka safaris. We were in Botswana with clients and had 4 lions come into camp chasing a bushmans dogs, who we gave a lift to earlyer in the day. I was less then 10 ft from the lions as they were running helter skelter through camp after the dogs. I cant say that I was pissing my pants, as it's nothing compared to the work I did for Uncle Sam. Tell me what good a boltgun would do me over a singleshot when the shot would be at 10ft or less as it comes out of the dark at you?

It has been my experience that I cannot be sure of a one shot kill when hunting big game. Overall, I have been successful at dropping my animal, but in some cases, a rapid followup shot has made the difference between success and failure. Yes, I believe that an experienced gun handler can probably reload a single shot faster than a novice can chamber another round in a bolt gun, but it's just one more thing to go wrong in a tense situation. For me, the answer is simple. If I am hunting game animals larger than a ground squirrel, I prefer to use a magazine fed repeater of some sort. But that's just me. If you have the confidence and the proficiency to hunt big (and dangerous) game with a single shot, then go for it, and more power to you.

BTW, I just love shooting ground squirrels with my 1885 LoWall in 22 Hornet!

I would hazard a guess that people who use single-shot rifles (of any calibre) are generally good shots, although that statement would probably be open to interpretation and speculation. I think that having one certainly forces you somewhere in the back of your mind to concentrate a little harder on the shot in any situation where you you would be taking a shot at an animal, big or small, but more so probably with the big nasty ones. It is always the first shot that counts the most, regardless of the animal and if you can put it where it counts then happy days.

Shooting at a wounded animal, running away from you, especially if it is a small animal or an antelope, your chances of getting a second vital shot on a fast departing animal is going to be relatively poor, but better for a larger somewhat slower target such as an elephant or buffallo.

I have never experienced a lion or leopard charge from close quarters thank goodness, but am sure that, even if you have a bolt-action rifle, you are unlikely to get a second shot off in most cases, before you encounter problems, seeing how fast they can cover ground when they want to. In a case like this, or any dangerous animal in thick bush, I think that a double would probably be better than a bolt-action, but in any case, you would probably want to shoot as fast and as accurate as possible before getting the track-shoes out.

A while back there was a video of a buffalo charge on YouTube. The link may have been off a thread on this Forum, I can't remember. There were about 4 people in the hunting party. The buffalo had been wounded earlier and the group was tracking it. The hunter was using a bolt gun of some sort and got off one shot as the buffalo came at them from 25-30 yards away. Didn't stop him, and he just knocked the hunter down as the hunter managed to move out of the path at the last moment. The PH couldn't shoot as the buffalo was between him and others in the group. The buffalo wheeled around and I seem to recall someone got off a shot, but the animal fled. There was another shot taken at the fleeing buffalo. I think they stopped it at that point. Perhaps the hunter could have ended things sooner with a double, but nothing else offered a second chance. Personally, I'd love to have a double, but since money matters, I'd rather spend it on a hunt.

So why ask?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
So why ask?

Well, I recognize that there are many here with lots more African experience than I have. I'm interested in learning from that. My comment on the video was simply in reference to a very particular situation. No doubt there are other times where a second shot might be possible, if not in some charge with DG, perhaps in preventing a wounded PG animal from getting away. About the double, and the money involved, of course I'm not saying a double isn't worth it. Just that I'd rather spend it on another hunt. The choice for me isn't between a SS and a double; it's between a SS and a bolt gun. I've hunted some with both types. My own personal experience, admittedly more limited than most here, is that I can reload a bolt gun a little faster, and there's less chance for a fumble. But that's just me.

You say that your a little faster and more sure with a bolt gun. A little faster could be the difference between a dead buffalo at your feet and and a buff horn in your privates. Your choice though!

465H&H

In any hunting situation, the hunter should be able to get off an accurate first and second shot quickly. If you need a repeater to do that, stick to it. But don't feel the need to impose your limitations on others.

The same goes for bow hunting and handguns. I don't use them because I don't shoot either well. But I don't have a problem with those competent hunters that choose to use either one. I'll stick to my single shot rifles.

I can see the possibility of some guy that has hunted a bunch getting bored with his bolt action and deciding that a single-shot is more cool or more sporting. I guess it might be like bow hunters that I run across with a more holy than you attitude because I hunt with a gun and not a bow.

This may be akin to some guy riding his unicycle down the road because it is cooler than all the bicycle boys whizzing down the road (Who are all these bicycle types? Trustees? They are on the road 24 hours a day. Don't they work for a living?).

But when the unicyclist gets run over because he couldn't get out of the way of the 30-ton semi, somehow we are suppose to feel sorry for him. What a brave lad he was for riding in heavy traffic. Crying women and candle light vigils. Demands for more bicycle (and unicycle) only lanes along the highways.

So I suppose it would be the same for the bow hunter, the handgun hunter, or the single-shot hunter if the buffalo makes him permanently sing soprano.

If the hunter gets killed hunting dangerous game, so be it. It was his choice. But don't expect any sympathy, from me anyway, if you get killed. I figure others might as well go by and take a leak on the unicycle, the recurve bow, the six-shooter, or the single-shot.

Hunt with a single-shot if you feel the need, if you are bored, or for whatever reason that occurs to you. It was your decision to take the extra chance, and the chance of the PH in this case.

If you get nailed, have fun with it. But sympathy? Nope.

Can't say I'm bored because I've hunted so much, or even that I think a SS is more sporting. That's not it. Just love the lines and handling of a nice SS, and there's a history to that type of rifle that's very appealing to me. No doubt many double rifle shooters feel the same about that kind of arm. And, wouldn't expect any sympathy if injured or killed, whether using a bow, handgun, SS, double, bolt gun or 50 cal machine gun. After all, we choose to go do these things. But, the next African trip I have booked (in 09) doesn't include DG. My Ruger No. 1 in 450/400 wouldn't be so great a choice for PG in Namibia, so I will probably end up taking a bolt gun. Maybe.

Will, you are a hard man!

gentlemen, I don't think JeffreyPHD, was asking for permission to use his single shot rifle on dangerous game, as I said in my first post, he doesn't need anyone's permission. If I remember right he only asked if YOU would hunt DG with a singleshot. I have a great suspicion that every one of you guys would hunt DG with a single shot, if it meant you didn't get to hunt DG if you didn't.

A single shot wouldn't be my first choice to hunt Buffalo, but as long as it was in my hands when I came upon a good bull, and the chambering was adiquate, it would get an airing, in short order, and I imagine it would in the hands of anyone here.

The use of a heavy single shot in combination with a double rifle, is not anything new, and was done by all the old elephant hunters in days of Yore! The Farquarson rifles were plintiful in the Ele camps, along with some other really big bore single shots, and double rifles. I have had several pairs of single shots, and double rifles chambered for the same ammo, and used on the same hunts, with each having it's own purpose. As far as I'm concerned, thos rifles lent something to my hunts that I wouldn't trade!

SO! JefferyPHD, Do your thing, and appologize to no one! It's your money, and your hunt!

Will,
I think you should take a leak on the unicyclist now, because they arent going to know if you do it to them after they're dead.

I've been once for buffalo and I'm going back. If the gods smile, I'll have a double .470, because from all of the studying I've done, reading the occasionally very educated opinions here and elsewhere, I want a quick second shot.

I do not wish to create a potential hazard for myself, my PH, or the trackers by limiting my options.

No single shots for me.

On plains game, who cares, although a guy who is quick with a bolt gun can get off two accurate shots in about three seconds if he runs about a thousand rounds through his rifle before he goes out. Works for me.

How do all the posts on this thread compare to other threads when people talk about how many shots it took for them personally to take down their buffalo .... ?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
For plainsgame, who gives a shit?

For dangerous game, there are a few big talkers here. I suspect the promoters of single-shot rifles have never experienced a real, determined charge.

And the PH bailing you out? What is the point of hunting DG is the PH is going to shoot it? And it just infuriates me if the PH shoots. And if a repeater is ever needed it is to shoot that kind of shithead PH.

Let's see the single-shot shooter go into thick bush after the wounded lion, by himself. He'll be shitting all over his internet bravery.

Good point and true. Too many hunters want only the story.

But Will your scenario will never happen. The client of today has a PH that is armed, a Game Scout that is armed, a Tracker that maybe armed, maybe an Apprentice that is armed. He has more armed members of his entourage than SnoopDog. That's plenty of backup if he screws up his one opportunity at an Ele at 10 yards.

quote:

I probably hunt more than anyone on this forum with double rifles,.......

Mac

You are starting to sound like Atkinson.

Gator,

I am somewhat dubious of the value of the PH or game scouts.

On the last charge when that cow was about to step on me, Buzz had his rifle pretty much at his side, and the game scout had long departed the area.

But then Buzz would have been quite happy if I had gooten stepped on, especially if it was gotten on tape.

quote:

But then Buzz would have been quite happy if I had gooten stepped on, especially if it was gotten on tape.

Wouldn't we all?

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:

quote:

I probably hunt more than anyone on this forum with double rifles,.......

Mac

You are starting to sound like Atkinson.

Damn! I really must be getting old! Hell I'm only 71 yrs old, and I'm sure Ray is at least 118 yrs old!


Explanation of the BOLD quote above:

That sentence, was in regard to the fact that I hunt almost exclusively with a double rifle 52 weeks per year, for everything from jackrabbit to Hippo. It was not meant to emply that I hunt AFRICA more than just about anyone here, but most likely hunt with a DOUBLE RIFLE for everything,everywhere, more than most here!

Hope that is as confusing to you as it is to me!

To those of you who want to eleminate risk I would suggest you stay home and read about hunting dangerous game.

Will- If you are killed by a dangerous game animal should we not mourn your loss? By default, whatever gun you were using at the time was not enough. Why not step up to something fully automatic?

Well put, Eyedoc, and Will: I don't recall anyone asking for your sympathy or mourning-----------

When Nicky Atcheson got whacked, there was nothing but sympathy flowing. But then she wasn't using a single-shot either.

I did feel sorry for Francois, and he did change his mind about using a .318 WR on buff!

Guys, Don't dare question Will. After all, he wrote a book.

I've been reading this post with interest from the get go and as usual there's no definitive answer, BUT, I'm really going to step in it this time. (1) If we all could afford a double rifle we probably would have never had reason to get to page 2 of this thread. and (2) Why hasn't somebody developed a DG semi-automatic? Seems like AK's, M-14's, and Garands have been pretty damn reliable for about 70 years. Never mind the piece of s--t M-16. Let's see, a Garand in .458 Win Mag. hmmmmmmmmm

Hey yellowstone: Many years ago when I worked in Alaska I was at a gun show, and some guy had converted a BROWNING BAR-one of the new ones- from .338win mag to .458 winmag. I must have been quite a rifle! Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Will:...Buzz would have been quite happy if I had gooten stepped on, especially if it was gotten on tape.

Will, come on, you are never going to catch up to the immortals...getting skewered or smooshed is your only chance of securing your legacy!

I was hoping my bad attitude would suffice, but getting squished would be much more certain!

quote:

Originally posted by yellowstone:
I've been reading this post with interest from the get go and as usual there's no definitive answer, BUT, I'm really going to step in it this time. (1) If we all could afford a double rifle we probably would have never had reason to get to page 2 of this thread. and (2) Why hasn't somebody developed a DG semi-automatic? Seems like AK's, M-14's, and Garands have been pretty damn reliable for about 70 years. Never mind the piece of s--t M-16. Let's see, a Garand in .458 Win Mag. hmmmmmmmmm

yellowstone, that has been done many times! However, it doesn't apply to Africa, because there is no country there that will allow you import or to use a full auto, or even a simi-auto for hunting of big game. Some countries will allow a simi-auto shotgun for birds.

Somebody now is converting M1 Garrands to 458 win mag, but it will likely only see life on the gun ranges owned by the "LOOK AT ME" crowd that rarely hunts anything other than toys!

This thread has gotten some real dumb answers to the origenal question, with attacks on this type, and that type of hunting rifle. There is no question one can design a weapon that will allow you to kill dangerous game without any danger to the hunter at all, but what would be the point? IMO, the whole idea in hunting dangerous game is because it is dangerous, and dangerous game is simply not dangerous at any distance you would NEED a scoped, flat shooting rifle,, or if you ride around in a Bradley tank with a mini-gun mounted!

The proper place for the DGR chambered single shot, is in conjunction with another DGR that the single offers a fix for some draw-back in the other rifle. A draw-back like not being able to thread a bullet through a tiny hole in the bush with the scoped single shot, and backed up with the properly chambered double, or CRF bolt rifle for the fight that may come about.

I still say, If the single shot was all that was at hand, there isn't a man posting here who would not use it to hunt Buffalo, or Ele,or simply quite hunting. The chambering, and knowing how to use ones rifle, is far more important, that the type of rifle one uses!

Others may do as it suits them, but I have, and may again hunt Cape Buffalo with a single shot! Is it my first choice for Buffalo hunting, no! Would I go to Africa with nothing but a single shot rifle to hunt Dangerous game, absolutely not, but it is sure a nice back-up with a scope mounted on it, for special duty, along with my double rifle, or big bolt rifle!

I'd be interested to know the names of the guys here who would turn down a buffalo hunt because the only rifle still working in the bush was a single shot, chambered for a DGR cartridge! I don't think there would be many in that list!

Good Lord ! A .458 Garand? I guess I'm definitely not a man before my time. I had forgotten that African authorities take a dim view of semi or full auto rifles. Don't get me wrong. I would have no use for one personally. I will continue to use my Model 70 in .375 H&H and my BRNO in .458. I like the classic nature of the single shot, and I have quite a few custom muzzleloaders and they don't reload fast enough for much of anything except tracking what should have been down, but isn't always. If I sold all my custom muzzleloaders I could probably buy a Kreighoff or a Scearcy, but unless I'm wading into the bush for an elk with long canines I probably won't need one here in Montanan territory.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:I'd be interested to know the names of the guys here who would turn down a buffalo hunt because the only rifle still working in the bush was a single shot, chambered for a DGR cartridge!

Mac, some of the camp rifles I have seen in the bush WERE in effect single shots!

Seriously, I'm don't have a strong opinion either for or against a single-shot rifle, but I think we can all agree that the worst situation to find oneself in is with a rifle and/or cartridge (such as our beloved FPS's) which will not feed reliably or jams.

Reg the single shot, it is not just the potential of needing more rounds in the event of a charge, but the possibility of loosing the animal by not being able to put a quick 2nd/3rd shot into him.

But hey, the PH's gotta have some fun too!

How many of us would not hunt with a PH who has a single shot rifle? How many of us have actually heard our PH's rifle go BANG? Twice?

quote:

Single Shots; would you use one?

NO....I wouldn't.....others can but I won't!

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
No, I would not, for either. I have never understood the facination with single shot rifles. The ideal is a single shot kill and I have had plenty, but I have been on too many hunts where fast follow-up shots are necessry not only to make a certain kill, but to kill humainly. Especially with dangerous game such as cape buffalo. I am not one to rely on the shooting expertise of my PH.

Well said.

And I've never understood the fascination with putting down another man's choice of weapons. Pretty ridiculous and perhaps it says more about the critic than the singleshot user.

Brent